icehonesty
County: Wexford
Posts: 1620

1628847
What a load of rubbish.

What is a player's potential? Who decides what it is? What is the measurement of potential?

I'm a Sport Psychologist specialising in talent identification and talent development and I've never heard such rubbish. It's just trying to get at guys. And to be honest, it's almost always the hurling lads at this type of stuff, a sort of snobbery that noone can be great at hurling unless they spend 24/7 thinking about and playing it. Anyone who doesn't eat, drink and sleep hurling 24/7 is branded as never being able to reach their potential. Which is just not correct.

You are exaggerating there a little bit. They said players can play both but they will struggle to reach their potential. So you have taken issue with the semantics. Fair enough then, another thing that they said is that when a player is focussing on one sport, they have an advantage over players that are dabbling in two. Though you are exaggerating with the 24/7 bit, it is fair to say that despite work committments, those players that want to win an All-ireland must be focussed on that task. It will and does take over their lives. There are a small few people that think they can try both. In the national league maybe, but we are talking serious stuff now and it is not possible. You say it is possible as a sports psychologist- the top GAA coaches disagree.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 31/07/2014 12:19:30    1628874

You don't need a degree for common sense. Practice makes perfect. The more time you spend at something tge better you'll get. Surely if you have to devote half your time to something else you wont be as good as if you devoted all your time to one.

The most you can give is 100% if you want to play both a the top level you can't give 200% ????!! Both will suffer as you are lacking commitment in both cases

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2682 - 31/07/2014 15:10:54    1628974

Correct Doyler.The only problem with common sense,is its not that common at all.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 31/07/2014 15:34:02    1628984

Kerry would have hammered Cork in that Munster Final even if the trio didn't miss a football session and didn't touch a hurley all year
The fact that hurling is a more skilful sport there is no way you could play to your 100% potential if your playing football, and your maybe missing one 'hurling session' a week. Loughnane got it spot on with the Podge Collins situation with him giving up that sessiona week with him and a 100 hurling balls.
You should be able to get away with that in football since football isn't close as skilful as hurling. That last sentence is what Donal Og and Ger were dying to say but obviously cant..

H_Bomb12 (Waterford) - Posts: 32 - 31/07/2014 16:04:11    1629007

Doylerwex

+1

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 31/07/2014 16:26:29    1629021

Ah right. It's common sense is it?

Bit of a waste of time debating this with some of ye but I'll give it a go.

First, speaking of potential isn't semantics. It's a genuine question. How do you gauge someone's potential? Take Teddy McCarthy, probably the most famous dual player of the last 30 years. Did he reach his potential as a player of hurling or football? Compared to let's say Gerry McEntee who just played football at the same time, could you say one had reached his potential as a footballer and the other hadn't? If so, how did you measure this? You can do this to compare any dual player v single code player- Aidan Walsh v James Woodlock, Podge Collins v Harry Kehoe, etc etc.

Second, there is considerable crossover between the two sports. Not just in the rules of the game, size of pitch, number of players, etc. But in technical and tactical aspects. In hurling there is far more high fielding of the ball for example than in football apart from midfielders- this then would help that dual player become a better fielder in the other sport (although Aidan Walsh's fielding in football did help him make the fetch of the summer in the first few mins of the Clare game). In football players must be more proactive than in traditionally in hurling, as they make runs off the ball looking for a pass rather than holding their position and reacting to a pass. You see someone like Dotsy O'Callaghan make a lot of runs off the ball to gain possession, or Conal Keaney having a brilliant awareness of space to drift out the field as he did against Wexford to basically win the game for Dublin.

This crossover of skills shows the "common sense" folly that if you play both you are only giving half your attention to each one is incorrect.

There are a few dual players in the game. Cork have a few and are still in the championship in both codes. Dublin have both lost out and benefitted from dual players in recent years, losing Tomas Brady and Ciaran Kilkenny and gaining O'Callaghan and Keaney. Podge Collins was a dual player this year and was lambasted in all quarters when in fact the guy was no better or worse than the rest of the Clare team. Dual players should be treasured and helped in any way a county can. If they aren't good enough to make a team in either code, don't pick them. Dual players are the real GAA man , the ideal of what a GAA man should be, and shouldn't be subjected to this rubbish and snobbish comments from hurling people.

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2553 - 31/07/2014 17:55:07    1629079

icehonesty

I take your point although I strongly dieggs. With the crossover skills. Anyway staying on the point.

A count. Team trains 3 nights a week in peak season play a match at at the weekend in peak season. Suppose this player is playing hurling at football. He's hurling Monday Wednesday Friday. Should he play football Tuesday
Thursday Saturday and 2 games on Sunday ??

What if hes Also under 21 ? Or in a county that respects its club players and doesnt wait for the county to go out to hold the chanpionship.

How is it pasi

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2682 - 01/08/2014 10:34:58    1629271

I see what you're saying even though I disagree with the crossover of skills.

A county team trains 3 nights a week and a match in peak season. That's 6 night's training and 2 games probably on the same day. Ignoring the possibility that they might train on the same day 40 miles apart. So we are in the red with time already.
What if he's also under 21 or from a county that respects its clubs and runs the championship at the same time as inter county ?
When does one eat sleep or work ?
He can't give the same focus or commitment as his teammates that concentrate on one sport. If he cant attend every session or game he shouldn't even be aloud on the bus. You are discussing the terminology of the topic but not addressing the main issue at all

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2682 - 01/08/2014 10:42:29    1629281

01/08/2014 10:42:29
Doylerwex
I see what you're saying even though I disagree with the crossover of skills.
A county team trains 3 nights a week and a match in peak season. That's 6 night's training and 2 games probably on the same day. Ignoring the possibility that they might train on the same day 40 miles apart. So we are in the red with time already.
What if he's also under 21 or from a county that respects its clubs and runs the championship at the same time as inter county ?
When does one eat sleep or work ?
He can't give the same focus or commitment as his teammates that concentrate on one sport. If he cant attend every session or game he shouldn't even be aloud on the bus. You are discussing the terminology of the topic but not addressing the main issue at all A player if playing both sports may not need to attend all 6 sessions with him as he coaches wouldn't want him to run risk of injury. Where do you get 2 games on same day. That is a once in a summer maybe twice occurrence. One eats/sleeps by prioritising when to train and when to play. Not playing everything and taking training sessions off.
Hard to say one cannot focus as much as team mates who concentrate on one sport. If you cant attend every session why shouldn't you be allowed(sic) on the bus. He would still be at majority and still totally valued part of team and squad

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 01/08/2014 10:52:10    1629294

Ice

Come of it with this hurling snobbery rubbish. Hurling is my first love. I kick football because it's mostly the same lads on the teams. Just because I don't love it doesn't mean I have any desire to harm it. If a lad wants to chose let him. That's nobodys business but his own. It's just common knowledge the skills of hurling need to be coached and practiced more which is why most counties can't play it. Everyone can kick a football. That's why the hurling debate comes off the way it does

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2682 - 01/08/2014 10:53:17    1629295

ormondbannerman

Being selected to represent your county is the greatest honor in either code. If you can't attend training for any reason other than family bereavement or your own.injury you surrender that honor.

"ah I can't train hurling tonight cause I'm at football but sure pick me anyway over the lads who are always on time and have attended every session. I should get preferential treatment because I'm a dual player"

If I was your manager you'd be out before your feet touched the ground.i

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2682 - 01/08/2014 11:13:45    1629309

@Doylerwex It's down to each manager to decide that unfortunately. Some managers are very selfish, saying that guys who don't turn up to each and every session can't be on the squad. Some managers are flexible so long as players aren't taking the p*ss. For example, a dual player won't need to do physical work with both teams as it would be counter-productive. Why do a hard physical session with the footballers on a Monday and then have your hurling manager demand you do a hard physical session with the hurlers on the Tuesday? It makes no sense. Managers in both codes nowadays, especially from more rural counties have two groups training- one in their own county and the other in Dublin. It's a similar situation.

Trust the guys playing the other code to be putting in the work. So long as it's set out at the start of the season to the squad that some players will miss some sessions, there is no issue. It's like having a guy injured for two months- do you let him join back in after the two months, or tell him "sorry pal, you missed some sessions. Come back next year". As a manager you have to make allowances and manage the group, rather than act like some army drill sargeant and demand xyz from people. Someone who does that isn't a manager.

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2553 - 02/08/2014 13:46:56    1629803

icehonesty

Commitment isn't just to your own physical condition. It's to the cause,your management your county but most importantly your teammates. To soldier through it with them from beginning to end. Missing anything is a lack of commitment and a gesture of disrespect to the above. End of story

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2682 - 03/08/2014 09:43:13    1630328

Hard to disagree with those sentiments. Dual players were more skillful in the past than the current crop, Ray Cummins, JBM, Liam Curhams et al. Too much emphasis nowadays on fitness. You don't need as much skill to play modern day GAA football or 'fistball' as one other poster more accurately refers to it but you do need to concentrate fully on your gymwork.

Maroonatic (Galway) - Posts: 1060 - 03/08/2014 12:17:09    1630428

Commitment isn't just to your own physical condition. It's to the cause,your management your county but most importantly your teammates. To soldier through it with them from beginning to end. Missing anything is a lack of commitment and a gesture of disrespect to the above. End of story

Well I completely disagree with that. Your commitment is to yourself first, and to your county second. Those sentiments, that commitment to your teammates is the only thing that matters is rubbish I'm afraid. What if a guy is injured, or a guy has exams that limit him being able to attend every session? He does the work on his own to make up the deficit. That's commitment. You're way off the mark there in what you said. End of story

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2553 - 04/08/2014 15:49:18    1631296

01/08/2014 11:13:45 Doylerwex
ormond Being selected to represent your county is the greatest honor in either code. If you can't attend training for any reason other than family bereavement or your own.injury you surrender that honor.
"ah I can't train hurling tonight cause I'm at football but sure pick me anyway over the lads who are always on time and have attended every session. I should get preferential treatment because I'm a dual player"
If I was your manager you'd be out before your feet touched the ground.i That is ridiculous attitude and thankfully no county coach would have an opinion like that. Like ffs if you attend training unless injured or someone in your family has died and if you cant you're out. that's just ridiculous.
Nobody have I said any dual player or otherwise would be getting preferential treatment just that a dual player should work with both his county coaches and work out something where all 3 are strengthened by that players involvement.

02/08/2014 13:46:56 icehonesty
@Doylerwex It's down to each manager to decide that unfortunately. Some managers are very selfish, saying that guys who don't turn up to each and every session can't be on the squad. Some managers are flexible so long as players aren't taking the p*ss. For example, a dual player won't need to do physical work with both teams as it would be counter-productive. Why do a hard physical session with the footballers on a Monday and then have your hurling manager demand you do a hard physical session with the hurlers on the Tuesday? It makes no sense. Managers in both codes nowadays, especially from more rural counties have two groups training- one in their own county and the other in Dublin. It's a similar situation.
Trust the guys playing the other code to be putting in the work. So long as it's set out at the start of the season to the squad that some players will miss some sessions, there is no issue. It's like having a guy injured for two months- do you let him join back in after the two months, or tell him "sorry pal, you missed some sessions. Come back next year". As a manager you have to make allowances and manage the group, rather than act like some army drill sargeant and demand xyz from people. Someone who does that isn't a manager. +1. A player wont need to double up on some sessions and everyone knows their place and whats going on then its ok
03/08/2014 09:43:13
Doylerwex
icehonesty Commitment isn't just to your own physical condition. It's to the cause,your management your county but most importantly your teammates. To soldier through it with them from beginning to end. Missing anything is a lack of commitment and a gesture of disrespect to the above. End of story That's just ridiculous and certainly isn't a lack of commitment or disrespectful. The player would still be soldiering through from beginning to end. They're 100% committed to their own effort/ability and that's the first point for all players.
Plenty of players miss sessions due to work/education commitments from time to time and that's ok. The same here. As long as the player is staying in top condition whats the issue? They don't have a lack of commitment and are not being disrespectful. If they miss a session they do the work to catch up if they have to catch up on anything in their own time.

04/08/2014 15:49:18 icehonesty
Well I completely disagree with that. Your commitment is to yourself first, and to your county second. Those sentiments, that commitment to your teammates is the only thing that matters is rubbish I'm afraid. What if a guy is injured, or a guy has exams that limit him being able to attend every session? He does the work on his own to make up the deficit. That's commitment. You're way off the mark there in what you said. End of story +1

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 04/08/2014 18:40:36    1631398

icehonesty
County: Wexford
Posts: 1627

1629079
Ah right. It's common sense is it?

Bit of a waste of time debating this with some of ye but I'll give it a go.

First, speaking of potential isn't semantics. It's a genuine question. How do you gauge someone's potential? Take Teddy McCarthy, probably the most famous dual player of the last 30 years. Did he reach his potential as a player of hurling or football? Compared to let's say Gerry McEntee who just played football at the same time, could you say one had reached his potential as a footballer and the other hadn't? If so, how did you measure this? You can do this to compare any dual player v single code player- Aidan Walsh v James Woodlock, Podge Collins v Harry Kehoe, etc etc.

That was the point I was making. It is hard to measure potential. Therefore the person that commits to one sport has an advantage over the other. If it is not common sense then it is numbers, name the number of people that play two technically different sports at the highest level? Why would Munster not allow Tomas O'Leary and Darren Sweetnam play hurling with Cork in the summer. Why won't they even allow them play competitive with their clubs? If it is possible to play two sports then surely a team like Munster (regardless of them being professional) would have no problem with the lads playing during the summer. Why did Cork City not let the likes of George O'Callaghan play club senior hurling in their off season? Why doesn't Jim Gavin play two GAA games? Why do you feel that you are right when everybody else feels differently.

Why do write comments like that underlined above.

You see when you write things like that and when you feel you know more than all others involved, that is snobbery.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 04/08/2014 19:27:18    1631426

Benny we both agreed that its not possible to reach your full potential by playing both hurling and football.How some people cannot see this is baffling,although not surprising.I wouldnt bother arguing the toss.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 04/08/2014 19:55:09    1631444

@Bennybunny I said that because there was condecension in the comments saying it was common sense, implying I hadn't common sense.

@Ormondbannerman Good to see someone else agrees.

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2553 - 04/08/2014 21:25:46    1631542

Who on this site feels they have the right to dictate to an amateur sportsman what he should or shouldn't do is beyond me , and to please who ? The fan ? Oh him enough said , their not your property lads , this ain't the premiership .. But god knows some cant tell the difference .

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 04/08/2014 21:29:00    1631546