*if Monaghan went man to man against Dublin they'd win.

JMK (Kerry) - Posts: 273 - 11/08/2014 16:06:17    1635083

If Monaghan had a well drilled attack plan in place, they possibly could have gave Dublin a tighter game. They may have still lost, but probably not by 17 points. It's more about getting your tactics right, than purely being a matter of skill.

Most teams are planning in the dark, and you have 70mins to discover if your game plan actually works against Dublin or whoever you play. Dublin's offensive system has clearly perplexed quite a few managers so far, and teams have either not had the hardware or proper game plan to beat Jim Gavin's side.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 11/08/2014 17:43:18    1635171

GaryMc82
County: Derry
Posts: 1295

1635171
If Monaghan had a well drilled attack plan in place, they possibly could have gave Dublin a tighter game. They may have still lost, but probably not by 17 points. It's more about getting your tactics right, than purely being a matter of skill.

Most teams are planning in the dark, and you have 70mins to discover if your game plan actually works against Dublin or whoever you play. Dublin's offensive system has clearly perplexed quite a few managers so far, and teams have either not had the hardware or proper game plan to beat Jim Gavin's side.

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To be honest from what I saw of Monaghan, and the scoring stats this year bear this out, I just don't think they have the raw materials up front to properly plan attack effectively. McManus is a great talent but I don't see other threats up there to be honest and he was badly isolated on Sat. On the other hand had they committed more players forward Dublin would have blown them away a lot sooner than they did. From the outset Monaghan setup for damage limitation which is what Donegal do. It can work if the opposition don't press you up the pitch and Dublin in 2011 didn't. This Dublin team though will not let defenders outside their 45 unless it goes long and even then that pass will be under pressure.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 11/08/2014 18:09:57    1635193

JMK - I disagree with what you are saying. Firstly by on here I meant on Hoganstand and particularly the thread set up for the Dublin/Monaghan match. I have gone through the first 11 pages of comments and picked out any Ulster posters predictions. There were only 3 came out and said Monaghan would win and not surprising they were from Monaghan. There were 17 who predicted Dublin including a number of Monaghan posters. There were also ones who were non committal but said Dublin should win. On this thread the opening thread was from tribute who, if you read the follow up comments, was probably fishing but again most other posters that I can see said Dublin. So I stand over what I posted earlier today.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 11/08/2014 18:16:57    1635199

One of the interesting comments I have now seen from Malachy O'Rourke is that Monaghan were surprised by how physical Dublin are - that while Monaghan would be thought of as one of Ulsters most physical outfits Dublin are on another level. There are posters on here that seem convinced that its only Ulster footballers who can be physical, as we were told by many about how sore Dublin would be on Sunday morning after their examination by Monaghan. Alongside Ulster being the most difficult province to win, this seems to be another myth that is getting exposed this year.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 11/08/2014 18:32:22    1635207

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 550

1635207
One of the interesting comments I have now seen from Malachy O'Rourke is that Monaghan were surprised by how physical Dublin are - that while Monaghan would be thought of as one of Ulsters most physical outfits Dublin are on another level. There are posters on here that seem convinced that its only Ulster footballers who can be physical, as we were told by many about how sore Dublin would be on Sunday morning after their examination by Monaghan. Alongside Ulster being the most difficult province to win, this seems to be another myth that is getting exposed this year.

Ulster is still the most difficult to win. The gap between the weakest and the strongest is much narrower than other provinces. There are at least 4-5 teams who could potentially have a serious chance of the anglo celt trophy each year. Its not the case for any other provincial championship.

seanfinn (Monaghan) - Posts: 360 - 11/08/2014 19:08:38    1635228

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 550

1635207
One of the interesting comments I have now seen from Malachy O'Rourke is that Monaghan were surprised by how physical Dublin are - that while Monaghan would be thought of as one of Ulsters most physical outfits Dublin are on another level. There are posters on here that seem convinced that its only Ulster footballers who can be physical, as we were told by many about how sore Dublin would be on Sunday morning after their examination by Monaghan. Alongside Ulster being the most difficult province to win, this seems to be another myth that is getting exposed this year.
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Have to say that I was surprised by those comments myself when I saw them. Up there with the 'have not been tested' nonsense. The Dublin players are all in excellent physical condition and almost all around 6ft. Bernard is about 5 11 I think. This team has not been physically pushed around by any other team and that includes Derry, Donegal, Tyrone, Cork etc so I don't know why some people thought that Monaghan were going to out muscle them. It's difficult to physically impose yourself on a team with so much pace and movement and I did say that Dublin players would take the Monaghan lads to areas of the pitch that they didn't know existed. That's what happened. I expect Donegal to better execute the blanket though as it's been bet into them but the Dubs will be moving that ball like it's a hot chunk of coal so will make for interesting viewing. Again I don't see Donegal physically dominating the game.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 11/08/2014 19:29:26    1635241

Seanfinn 6 different clubs have won the Kilkenny football club championship in the last 10 years which shows you how evenly matched the teams are there, Crossmaglen have won 17 of the last 18 in Armagh. This doesn't mean that its harder to win the Kilkenny championship than the Armagh one though. All provincial championships are hard won, and it takes a very good team to win any of them as ye saw last year.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 11/08/2014 19:31:12    1635246

You are correct in everything you say there Joxer. Ryan McHugh collected a kick-out from his keeper on his own 21 Saturday and carried it 70 yards, into Armaghs half of the field, without a finger being laid on him. I would be surprised if he carries the ball 70 yards in total against Dublin. I know he is being spoken about as the best player in this years Ulster championship, but I don't think a small guy like that would make any impression against Dublin or some of the other better sides in the country either. It seems all a game needs is for a few lads to get caught in headlocks and the usual 'hold me back before I hit him' nonsense and you have people convinced that it is gladiators that are on the pitch, if other games don't have this then it must mean they have no physicality about them at all!

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 11/08/2014 19:56:36    1635258

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 552

1635246
Seanfinn 6 different clubs have won the Kilkenny football club championship in the last 10 years which shows you how evenly matched the teams are there, Crossmaglen have won 17 of the last 18 in Armagh. This doesn't mean that its harder to win the Kilkenny championship than the Armagh one though. All provincial championships are hard won, and it takes a very good team to win any of them as ye saw last year.

Soma, are you seriously hinging your case on the kilkenny club football scene? If so that's no case at all. Totally irrelevant. As I said, and you can check the bookies odds if you don't believe me, This year dublin were heavy favourites for Leinster, Kerry and cork for Munster, mayo for Connacht. In ulster donegal were marginal favourites followed closely by monaghan, Tyrone, Derry and Cavan. In fact the only rank outsiders were Antrim and Fermanagh. Ulster is far the most competitive province. You are the first person who I have ever seen to dispute that fact.

seanfinn (Monaghan) - Posts: 360 - 11/08/2014 20:29:23    1635281

Its clear Soma you have a serious dislike for Ulster football. But we quite like it up here. It's nice not taking a place in the provincial final (or last 12) for granted.

JP91 (Armagh) - Posts: 316 - 11/08/2014 20:47:53    1635295

I only use the example of the Kilkenny and Armagh club championships to show that just because something is competitive it doesn't mean it is of a very high quality. I have no doubt that if Kildare, Meath, Laois, Wexford etc were in the Ulster championship they would be in with a great chance of winning it as well, the chances of any of them winning Leinster in the next few years is very slim.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 11/08/2014 20:58:15    1635300

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 554

1635300
I only use the example of the Kilkenny and Armagh club championships to show that just because something is competitive it doesn't mean it is of a very high quality. I have no doubt that if Kildare, Meath, Laois, Wexford etc were in the Ulster championship they would be in with a great chance of winning it as well, the chances of any of them winning Leinster in the next few years is very slim.

Well why is it that last year there were 4 ulster teams in the QF's, this year three ulster teams in the QF's? No sign of Wexford, Laois, Meath etc......

seanfinn (Monaghan) - Posts: 360 - 11/08/2014 21:18:22    1635320

Joxer
County: Dublin
Posts: 1704

1635193 To be honest from what I saw of Monaghan, and the scoring stats this year bear this out, I just don't think they have the raw materials up front to properly plan attack effectively. McManus is a great talent but I don't see other threats up there to be honest and he was badly isolated on Sat. On the other hand had they committed more players forward Dublin would have blown them away a lot sooner than they did. From the outset Monaghan setup for damage limitation which is what Donegal do. It can work if the opposition don't press you up the pitch and Dublin in 2011 didn't. This Dublin team though will not let defenders outside their 45 unless it goes long and even then that pass will be under pressure.

I agree that outside of McManus, they lacked a serious punch. Chris McGuinness is a decent forward, but was Isolated and as a result was totally out of the game. Kieran Hughes spent most of the game playing deep, and that role doesn't really suit him as player. Dick Clerkin is strong as an Ox and an excellent ball carrier, but like Finlay is slow and methodical.
Monaghan are comfortable in Ulster, and are not afraid to hit hard and Impose themselves in a very physical manner.

Monaghan looked nervous and edgy against Kildare, In what should have been a game they won more comfortably. Maybe it's lack of experience in HQ or whatever, but they definitely looked like fish out of water at times. Up in Ulster, Monaghan take pleasure entering their home ground of Clones and taking lumps out of other high and mighty local sides. Croker is a very different ball game.

I think Donegal have a much stronger overall squad than Monaghan, and I would say definitely a more versatile outfit.

For example In midfield, Donegal can play Neil Gallagher and/or Rory Kavanagh, Christy Toye, Martin McElhinney, Gallagher for fielding high ball, McElhinney and Kavanagh have stamina and pace. Toye is a creative player, strong and excellent at kicking long.

A focused Donegal won't be sitting ducks for Dublin, after the Monaghan game, they will know exactly whats coming. If Donegal are to have any chance of winning, I think they will push up on Dublin for the first 35 mins and attempt to open up a lead like Cork did in League SF. Then empty their own bench for the last 20mins and play an Ultra defensive posture.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 11/08/2014 21:20:45    1635323

Sean over 70 minutes of football in Croke Park there was nothing between a strong Monaghan side and a Kildare team who are only starting out - I am not sure a win in extra time entitles you to such a sense of superiority. On any given day that Kildare team can be beaten by Meath, Wexford or Laois, and on any given day any of these teams would put it up to Ulsters finest. It escaped nobodies attention that Dublins biggest winning margin in this years championship so far came against the beaten Ulster champions, who were also last years Ulster winners.
JP I don't hate Ulster football at all, but I don't have any time for those who constantly try and tell us how much harder it is to win Ulster and how much more physical it is, these ideas are now being shown up for the nonsense they are.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 11/08/2014 21:40:29    1635342

Soma ×2

Great example with Kilkenny/Armagh clubs.

Ulster is a province of poor teams who can beat each other on their day. Leinster is similar, besides Dublin.

Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Mayo and Donegal are ahead of the rest. Forget provinces, on their day the rest can beat each other

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 12/08/2014 09:59:33    1635404

Soma, we didn't have our strongest fully fit side during our campaign this year. Yet we still got to an ulster final, defeated Kildare in a deluge at croke park to get to a QF. I am not claiming we are miles ahead of Meath Wexford, Laois or Kildare. Just ahead. Monaghan had played 5 games before meeting the dubs, twice against Armagh who were in the QF's and once against Donegal also in the QF's. The week before we met Dublin we narrowly beat a decent Kildare side, who will improve.
The only team to contest the championship from Leinster at the business end for the last 2 years have been the dubs. Next year division 1 will have 4 ulster teams , 1 leinster team (Dublin) and then the expected Mayo, Kerry and Cork. This could change in the future, things often do but for now you haven't a leg to stand on. The facts are here in black and white.

seanfinn (Monaghan) - Posts: 360 - 12/08/2014 10:36:12    1635424

Soma, we didn't have our strongest fully fit side during our campaign this year. Yet we still got to an ulster final, defeated Kildare in a deluge at croke park to get to a QF. I am not claiming we are miles ahead of Meath Wexford, Laois or Kildare. Just ahead. Monaghan had played 5 games before meeting the dubs, twice against Armagh who were in the QF's and once against Donegal also in the QF's. The week before we met Dublin we narrowly beat a decent Kildare side, who will improve.
The only team to contest the championship from Leinster at the business end for the last 2 years have been the dubs. Next year division 1 will have 4 ulster teams , 1 leinster team (Dublin) and then the expected Mayo, Kerry and Cork. This could change in the future, things often do but for now you haven't a leg to stand on. The facts are here in black and white.

seanfinn (Monaghan) - Posts: 360 - 12/08/2014 10:50:46    1635438

Kildare are at Monaghans level....so are Meath. I said last week, Monaghan are Monaghan, thats their level.

Westmeath were a division 1 side last year, hardly had ye quaking in your boots at the thoughts of playing them. For strong division 1 teams the league is about making top 4 and avoiding relegation while looking at your panel.

Its irrelevant what province has how many in it.

Ulster is on a par with Leinster, saying otherwise is silly as the Dubs beat the second best teams in both provinces by similar scores.

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 12/08/2014 12:08:08    1635497

Well Jayp, results don't agree with you. If Kildare and Meath were at our level they would have beat ourselves and Armagh. They didn't. They would be contending in league 1 football next year. They aren't. Armagh are probably the most improved side I have seen in a long while, granted. However, Westmeath lost every single league game and didn't win a championship game this year. Something more going wrong there behind the scenes is a fair conclusion. The best of the rest in Ulster is simply better than any other province. Maybe not by much, but better.

seanfinn (Monaghan) - Posts: 360 - 12/08/2014 13:08:47    1635548