Not at all Breffni. However I have seen Donegal posters here say that they could never hope to take Kerry or Dublin on man to man because they would get beat every time, so instead they have to play the way they do. That to me is incredibly negative. Why do they think they would always get beat? Which Donegal player do they think isn't good enough to beat their opposite number in the Kerry or Dublin team? I just can't understand that type of negative thinking at all.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 23/07/2014 10:42:01    1624647

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 470

1624647
Not at all Breffni. However I have seen Donegal posters here say that they could never hope to take Kerry or Dublin on man to man because they would get beat every time, so instead they have to play the way they do. That to me is incredibly negative. Why do they think they would always get beat? Which Donegal player do they think isn't good enough to beat their opposite number in the Kerry or Dublin team? I just can't understand that type of negative thinking at all.
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How is that negative? Its called playing to your strengths. 'Man to man' is an incredibly oversimplified description of a tactic. The simple fact is that Donegal have always been a handpassing team, good on the ball in possession and good at supporting each other. Because of this tradition, what he dont have is a lot of good playmakers or players who can hit long accurate kick passes to an inside forward line. In no way is playing to your strengths being 'negative'. It is only your perceived thought on how the game should be played. I would regard being negative as taking to the pitch with no hope or real intentions to win the game. Donegal certainly cannot be accused of that. What we play is a defensive, counter-attacking game to suit our strengths in possession of the ball. There is a massive difference.

benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 23/07/2014 10:59:22    1624655

It's just a team believing they are less talented than the opposition that baffles me benjyy. I bet if I asked you to compare Donegals 6 defenders to Dublins 6 you would probably say Donegals 6 are better. The same probably applies to the midfielders and full forward line. Why then believe Dublins 15 are still better than Donegals? And a word of warning, try not to use the term 'defensive' in any post about Donegal, it unleashes the dogs of war!

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 23/07/2014 11:12:43    1624671

Your problem here is comparing player against player which is completely pointless. Its a team game and its how the players interact with each other that creates scores. Ive already told you that we don't possess playmakers so our approach is different.

Maybe what you mean is that Dublin are more of a risk-taking team whereas Donegal are more risk-averse which I would agree with. However I fail to see how that is a bad thing. I have friends who do a lot of gambling and have ups and downs and it is all very exciting. I am much more of a penny picher in comparison and avoid taking huge risks on things. Does that mean my approach to life is all wrong?

Interestingly, at the weekend the following phrase was used by 2 different people about 2 different teams.

"Everyone attacks and everyone defends; its total football"

The first instance was Pat Spillane fawning over Dublin.

The second instance was Martin Carney during the commentary referring to Donegal.

Can you argue either?

benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 23/07/2014 11:32:51    1624686

I have no difficulty with the way we play. It is defensive, so what. It works, very similarly to the Italian style of football. noone complains about watching them. Re donegal playing this way because they are not as good as the top teams, that is a side show of a topic. It is a question that can best be answered by teams who have tried to copy the system and failed. Cavan is a case in example. They have spent a couple of years doing it, at U21 level too, and it has brought them to their lowest ebb ever in football. The reality is that you need an excellent level of teamwork, skill and concentration to pull it off. We have this, thankfully. It is pointless to start to imagine what if we played any other way and how we would fair. We did plenty of this in the past and it didnt suit us that well, winning nothing, because we were so ragged at the back. Lovely football, but a team of individuals playing rather than a team effort. People will not remember the donegal team of the mid 00s much, but they will remember the current squad. Yes we may not be good enough this year to beat Dublin, we might even get beaten in the next round, who knows, but playing our system will focus players and give them consistency that lacked in buckets over the years.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 23/07/2014 11:39:16    1624689

I get what you are saying benjyy, fair enough. However in the 92 team wasn't Martin McHugh one of the countries best play makers, when did Donegal stop producing this type of player? And while a defensive, counterattacking style is fine, it relies on the other team actually attacking to be a success. If not then we get a situation like the Dublin v Donegal game in 2011, which surely most people agree was a terrible spectacle.
Anyway, good luck to Donegal in the games ahead.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 23/07/2014 11:50:48    1624700

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 472

1624700
I get what you are saying benjyy, fair enough. However in the 92 team wasn't Martin McHugh one of the countries best play makers, when did Donegal stop producing this type of player? And while a defensive, counterattacking style is fine, it relies on the other team actually attacking to be a success. If not then we get a situation like the Dublin v Donegal game in 2011, which surely most people agree was a terrible spectacle.
Anyway, good luck to Donegal in the games ahead.
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I'm not saying we never produce them, there have been a few. But the last out and out playmaker we had was Michael Hegarty.

You obviously mean success in terms of producing an open and enjoying spectacle for the neutral but I'm afraid that is 2nd priority and a long way behind the main priority of actually winning the game.

benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 23/07/2014 12:02:09    1624712

Fair enough about the priorities benjyy, that is why iv said previously that if Donegal believe it is for the best to play that style then they are entitled to do so. However the point made about Italy and soccer is an interesting one. First of all many people have a problem with negative, defensive tactics in soccer as well, look at the abuse Greece and Mourinho get. But more importantly look at seria A in Italy. 25 years ago it was the biggest league in Europe and their clubs were winning European cups, now it's fourth in the list with falling attendances and very few star players. Because of the defensive nature of the league the best attacking talent like Bergkamp, Zola etc left, and people stopped watching. Sometimes short term success has a high price.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 23/07/2014 12:15:11    1624717

Last time we tried to play attractive football it didn't really work out. Plus it took us ages to get the make-up off.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 23/07/2014 12:17:58    1624718

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 473

1624717
Fair enough about the priorities benjyy, that is why iv said previously that if Donegal believe it is for the best to play that style then they are entitled to do so. However the point made about Italy and soccer is an interesting one. First of all many people have a problem with negative, defensive tactics in soccer as well, look at the abuse Greece and Mourinho get. But more importantly look at seria A in Italy. 25 years ago it was the biggest league in Europe and their clubs were winning European cups, now it's fourth in the list with falling attendances and very few star players. Because of the defensive nature of the league the best attacking talent like Bergkamp, Zola etc left, and people stopped watching. Sometimes short term success has a high price.

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I agree with that in principle although what I would say is that (apart from Greece) teams and managers are able to buy and sell players to enable them to play a more exciting brand of football while remaining successful. Jim McGuinness has to do the best with the players we have and he sees this style of play as giving us the best chance of success.

Though I do see more and more teams as time passes playing the defensive/counter-attacking approach as I believe it is the optimal strategy in a prisoner's dilemma outlook to the game. Years ago players were not fit enough to run up and down the field all game in order to both defend and attack but now it is possible. Similarly to how in basketball all players take up attacking positions in offence and protect the D in defense, gaelic football can be played in that way effectively. I wrote a wee piece on it ages ago
http://bigsportingblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/game-theory-and-gaelic-football.html

benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 23/07/2014 12:42:26    1624731

People need to realise that gaelic football got away with teams being naive for a long time. In all other sports when team with superior ability (for want of a better word) meets an inferior one it is inevitable that they will be faced with defensive, negative strategies. To do anything else would be completely naive to say the least.
Take Monaghan for example with probably only 25-30 players of inter county level. How would anyone expect them to go toe-to-toe with Dublin or Kerry for example on a regular basis. Why should they just roll over and make up the numbers ffs. Winning titles is not the divine right of a few teams. Defensive football (described here as negative) offers weaker teams the opportunity to compete.
The real issue here is that the powerful teams (Dublin 2011 for example) often use defensive football as a means to win at all costs, this suggests that it is a more potent method for success

mhunicean_abu (Monaghan) - Posts: 1044 - 23/07/2014 12:44:09    1624732

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 473

1624717
Fair enough about the priorities benjyy, that is why iv said previously that if Donegal believe it is for the best to play that style then they are entitled to do so. However the point made about Italy and soccer is an interesting one. First of all many people have a problem with negative, defensive tactics in soccer as well, look at the abuse Greece and Mourinho get. But more importantly look at seria A in Italy. 25 years ago it was the biggest league in Europe and their clubs were winning European cups, now it's fourth in the list with falling attendances and very few star players. Because of the defensive nature of the league the best attacking talent like Bergkamp, Zola etc left, and people stopped watching. Sometimes short term success has a high price.

I thought Serie A Image was severely damaged with widespread match fixing, with top teams like Juventus being relegated as a result and stripped of Champions League place. It is only now starting to recover, but up until that point it was still one of Europes top 4 leagues. Also the money Sky bring to the premier league is a huge Incentive for foreign Investors, which the Italian leagues stuggle to compete with apart from the very top sides.

With regards Donegal playing the style that they do, I think this wasn't about lack of talent and more about getting Donegal winning matches. The Sports psychology side of McGuinness knew that in order to win trophies, they needed to start believing in themselves. And for that to happen, they needed to start winning and stringing wins together.

That team had been knocked out of Ulster on opening round in 2008, 2009 and 2010, and morale was at an all time low. Now I would be shocked if McGuinness himself would have expected the results that he would later yield, truely outstanding to have 3 x Ulster titles, 1 x All Ireland title and even a Div 2 title all in under 4 years.

They have 20 year old Paddy McBrearty, who has 3 x Ulster titles, 1 x All Ireland title in his pocket. McGuinness now has a new generation of players who unlike the older players, are used to winning major titles. They have strong Minor and U21 teams, and again these are teams who are used winning matches. It has been a knock on effect, as the seniors have Inspired the underage teams to a degree.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 23/07/2014 12:44:12    1624734

Soma Soma Soma.

Italy was the top attraction for footballers 20 odd years ago - today it is Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, PSG, Monaco, most EPL clubs and one or two others including a few Italian clubs. Like England today players were attracted to Italy bacause of the wages on offer. It has absolutely nothing to do with playing style so you can get rid of that fantasy right away. If it were down to attacking playing style the Bundesliga or Dutch Erdivise would be where all players are flocking to right now.

As for the abuse Mourinho gets - as far as I am aware Mourinho is widely regarded as one of the best managers there is.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 23/07/2014 12:51:34    1624740

When the abuse stops the debate gets interesting! Gary why do you feel Donegal have not really moved on and started playing a more expansive game if low confidence was the reason for the more defensive approach initially? I disagree with some Donegal posters, I think lads like Lacey, Toye and Gallagher are well capable of kicking good ball into a forward line if there were men to aim at.
Naysayer it seems strange that a conversation about GAA should start talking about Series A but it passes the day. The reason other leagues could pay higher wages than Italy is because more people were watching these leagues as they were more entertaining. This alongside Italy being a graveyard for attacking talent (Henry etc) meant interest In Italy fell away. And yes Mourinho is one of the world's best managers, but he was sacked from his last job due to his negative approach.
As to how this applies to football, look at Dave Barrys recent comments.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 23/07/2014 13:40:00    1624775

Ha Soma soccer on a GAA thread is a form of sacrilege to some but sure it can perhaps pass if being used for an analogy :)

Bergkamp and Henry left Italy unsuccessful but still young men. Viera left at the same time as Henry in similar circumstances and he could hardly be described as an attacking player.

The thing is though back in the late 80's/early 90's the highest wages were being paid by a host of Italian clubs. England was not on a par (Rangers were paying more than most English clubs at this time) nor were the like of PSG and the Germans still paying comparably low wages. Since then there has been an explosion of money in other leagues in Europe.

Aside from the competition for top talent Italy has also been plagued by corruption scandals and racism controversies, and has struggled to update its creaking infrastructure - because of a lack of money. You are probably aware that the like of Celtic and Rangers draw bigger crowds and have more global appeal than the likes of Southampton or Everton who bring in much more money because of TV deals.

Part of Serie A's financial malaise comes from the way the league's television rights have been sold. While the English Premier League's TV deals swelled its teams' coffers, Italy instead split the rights among individual clubs meaning clubs act purely in their own interests. I am sure you remember the late 80's and early 90's when live football on the TV or even highlights programs meant watching Serie A.

So to say that Serie A has gone backwards in terms of popularity among players and audiences because of the style of football is a bit simplistic for me.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 23/07/2014 14:20:09    1624796

Soma you think the Donegal forwards are better than the Dublin forwards....?

Good man yourself :)

Liamwalkinstown (Dublin) - Posts: 8166 - 23/07/2014 14:26:35    1624801

There is truth in what we are both saying Naysayer. Bergkamp was 26 when he left Italy, having hated the cautious style of play, Henry 23. It was the arrival of players like this in England that made the English league attractive to TV viewers and investors, and the loss of such players that hurt Italy so much. Italy clubs were regular European winners back then, they are miles off now. While Donegals style being successful is good for Donegal, it's debatable as to its longterm affect on the game. Maybe it gives other unsuccessful counties hope, or maybe it turns people away from the game.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 23/07/2014 14:38:07    1624812

Liam I think if you put Donegals full forward line in Dublins team you wouldn't be any worse off. There is no comparison in the half forwards though. Overall I think that Dublin team is outstanding.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 23/07/2014 14:41:36    1624815

This talk of some negative football turning people way from football is utter crap.
Ulster as people maintain has been defensive for a long time and yet year in year out it gets massive crowds.

Its because its not bad to watch and actually in one way it adds to the game as games tend to be closer. As someone said overall the games total score is similar to other provinces and yet there are generally not many hammerings and some great play.

Defending is a brilliant thing to see and Donegal are some of the best around for it. What they do is within the rules so why are people complaining.

People need to cop on and stop whinging about teams playing the game a bit differently. Their team needs to do like Dublin. Build up a squad potentially capable of beating the defensive system (Which they haven't played against in Championship since 2011 if my memory is correct)

dstuction (Donegal) - Posts: 1209 - 23/07/2014 15:01:46    1624826

dstuction - your post is another example of people going on the defensive when comments are passed regards negative football. I prefer attacking football myself but I do enjoy the Ulster battles as well. If someone makes an innocuous comment they'd like to see an attacking style win it out over a negative style, they are met with fury and thunder. People are entitled to have a preference to how they see the game played.

This thread started out wanting to know what style do people think will win the All-Ireland? Very few have been able to give an answer!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7853 - 23/07/2014 16:19:09    1624870