All this being said, why did McConville and Canavan describe Sundays first half as dour and overly negative then? Are they blinded as well with preconceived ideas, or are they doing like most of the country and calling it as they see it? If someone can find examples of 1 attacker v 7 defenders inside a 45 yard line in any of the other provinces then id be interested to see it. Just because Antrim/Fermanagh served up a very high scoring game, and Donegal decided to attack a poor Antrim side in the 2nd half of their game, getting the average scores up, proves very little. I actually believe the standard of defending in Ulster to be very poor this year, as evidenced by the scores kicked against Derry, Down and Cavan in the qualifiers, and the 2 goal chances Donegal coughed up to a limited Monaghan attack on Sunday.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 22/07/2014 20:28:49    1624469

teams can often respond poorly in the qualifiers to bad defeats in the provincial championship...time will tell on how good the defending has been donegals anyway and maybe monaghan ...the standard has also been very poor in other provinces do you agree?

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 22/07/2014 20:34:56    1624472

I feel that at the moment we (tipp) have a very good balance at the moment, Its bases is defensive but between good deliveries and classy forwards and the encouragement of players to break forward while the oppertunity presents it is very attractive to watch. 2-14 (2-10 from play) v limerick, 2-17 (2-9 from play) v longford and 3-17 (3-15 from play) v laois are all pretty formidable scores, wheather experience/quality will be the undoing of us at least we will have given it our all, playing a good style of football. You look at longford and roscommon just to mention a couple, how are they feeling about their year? Both have the players well capable of play good football but both went out with a whimper following unattractive unaffective football. I know longford beat derry but still to be beaten by us, minnows in football terms, by 17 points must really depress their followers

tipp11 (Tipperary) - Posts: 353 - 22/07/2014 20:39:12    1624476

I agree with you on that Fabio, defending has been poor from many sides, though some of the attacking by Mayo, Kerry and Dublin has been exceptional as well. People automatically assume that if a team like Kerry kick 24 points the defending must have been bad, but there are many sides who would have played Cork that day and not got near such a big score because they don't have the quality of passing, scoring and movement that Kerry do. For Donegal to give up 2 clear goal chances to Monaghan on Sunday, who would have an attack nowhere near the standard of Kerry or Dublin, suggests Donegal still have things to work on.
Generally in the qualifiers if teams get caught it is in the first game, both Cavan and Down had got wins before their heavy defeats to Kildare and Roscommon.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 22/07/2014 20:46:40    1624486

who did cavan play?..down did play leitrim after all!...i was quite suprised by the kildare result against down i must say...yeah i agree some of the attacking has been excellent but the sheer lack of intensity by the cork players was scary in the kerry match...seemed just all so easy for them...but no matter who is marking o donoghue is going to find themselves in a lot of bother..it will be interesting to see just how good kerry are and maybe how poor cork might be but you would have to expect them to bounce back

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 22/07/2014 20:56:36    1624496

Attacking football as played by current Dublin team will always win out. Donegal rely on getting a lead and holding onto it. That won't happen against Dublin, they have too much firepower. That leaves you with just two choices, A: Drop back and Try and keep the score respectable. Or B: Chase the game which means opening up and pushing men forward. Option B exposes you to the fastest counter attack Gaelic football has ever seen. Which is why so many teams end up getting thrashed.

Cavan u21's operated the defensive blanket system to perfection this year in the u21 semi final and lost. It can only take you so far.

Ned_Stormcrow (Cavan) - Posts: 1071 - 22/07/2014 20:59:52    1624497

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 466

For Donegal to give up 2 clear goal chances to Monaghan on Sunday, who would have an attack nowhere near the standard of Kerry or Dublin, suggests Donegal still have things to work on.


Good point, the second goal was very soft, in that McGlynn made a ball handling mistake, which he has never done in the past. Well taken goal resulted. the first goal chance was half a chance 2bh. although u are right, a better forward would have snuk in for goal.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 22/07/2014 21:05:19    1624504

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 466

1624469
All this being said, why did McConville and Canavan describe Sundays first half as dour and overly negative then? Are they blinded as well with preconceived ideas, or are they doing like most of the country and calling it as they see it? If someone can find examples of 1 attacker v 7 defenders inside a 45 yard line in any of the other provinces then id be interested to see it. Just because Antrim/Fermanagh served up a very high scoring game, and Donegal decided to attack a poor Antrim side in the 2nd half of their game, getting the average scores up, proves very little. I actually believe the standard of defending in Ulster to be very poor this year, as evidenced by the scores kicked against Derry, Down and Cavan in the qualifiers, and the 2 goal chances Donegal coughed up to a limited Monaghan attack on Sunday.

Soma, you really are becoming tiresome at this stage & remind me of Master when he got the bit between his teeth.

1. I can show you loads of examples of 7 defenders inside their own 45, it's called defending. Lots of teams do it.
2. The stats on scoring averages speak for themselves. There were plenty of turkey shoots in Leinster as well.
3. Your comment about defending in Ulster as being "poor" is beyond comment especially when you use two goal chances against Monaghan as evidence.
4. There is no "negative" football being played especially by Donegal. What they do is defend in packs when they don't have the ball & counter attack in numbers when they do have it. No other team features it's defenders in such forward positions with the possible exception of Dublin.
I understand that you may prefer the traditional approach of man v man and that is fair enough, but to constantly criticise teams & posters who have the temerity to take a different approach smacks of both immaturity & lack of knowledge as to how the world works.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 22/07/2014 21:05:33    1624505

They played Westmeath Fabio, it was a decent game I believe. And ya I understand what you are saying about Cork, but sometimes chasing Kerry forwards is liking trying to catch eels, it can make defenders look foolish and we can tend to over criticise the defenders rather than praise the attackers.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 22/07/2014 21:08:39    1624512

cork should be a top level side though soma and you would expect a lot better from them...westmeath going very poorly this year lost all 12 games i think so i feel cavan and down got nice draws in the qualifiers before ultimately being exposed..would have expected more from cavan after having a decent league campaign...the likes of shields especially for cork has been an overrated player for some time..good footballer but not a particularly good defender

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 22/07/2014 21:16:53    1624520

Muck you are not presenting things fairly there.
1. I never said there was anything wrong with 7 defenders inside your own 45, the problem is there was only 1 attacker in there as well, which suggests the game featured negative, defensive tactics.
2. The stats don't speak for themselves for the reasons I have previously outlined, they need context.
3. I believe defending in Ulster, and other provinces, has been poor this year. The scores Ulster teams have been conceding outside the province would tend to support this. Will Jimmy McGuinness be happy that Monaghan had 2 goal chances like that Sunday? The first chance should have been scored but the final pass was too slow and behind the man which killed it really. Donegals success in 2012 was largely built on not giving up goal chances, but both Derry and Monaghan have had a few already this year, and Donegal will get much bigger tests than that in Croke Park.
4. Donegal forwards turn and sprint towards their own goal when they lose possession, they done it against Derry and they done it Sunday. The only way to describe that is negative. I don't think they should stop doing this, as it is their belief that it gives them their best chance of success, but I would prefer if they trusted themselves to go man to man because I think they have many fine footballers.
5. Now I have answered all your points, perhaps you can say why Canavan and McConville described the first half like they did on Sunday?

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 22/07/2014 21:20:18    1624521

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 468

1624521
Muck you are not presenting things fairly there.
1. I never said there was anything wrong with 7 defenders inside your own 45, the problem is there was only 1 attacker in there as well, which suggests the game featured negative, defensive tactics.
That's Monaghan's problem. Show me the same thing regarding the Donegal forwards & we can have a conversation
2. The stats don't speak for themselves for the reasons I have previously outlined, they need context.
What sort of an answer is that? Dublin put big scores on woeful opposition in Leinster which upped the averages. How much context dou you want?
3. I believe defending in Ulster, and other provinces, has been poor this year. The scores Ulster teams have been conceding outside the province would tend to support this. Will Jimmy McGuinness be happy that Monaghan had 2 goal chances like that Sunday? The first chance should have been scored but the final pass was too slow and behind the man which killed it really. Donegals success in 2012 was largely built on not giving up goal chances, but both Derry and Monaghan have had a few already this year, and Donegal will get much bigger tests than that in Croke Park.
No Jim will not be happy about the first chance but the second one was a once in a moon slip of the feet from Frank McGlynn when he was under no pressure. You will be waiting a long time to see a repeat of that!!
4. Donegal forwards turn and sprint towards their own goal when they lose possession, they done it against Derry and they done it Sunday. The only way to describe that is negative. I don't think they should stop doing this, as it is their belief that it gives them their best chance of success, but I would prefer if they trusted themselves to go man to man because I think they have many fine footballers.
What is negative about it? What do you want the forwards to do, stand around like forwards from most counties do? JMcG has figured out that the most effective way for this team to defend is from their own 50. That is his perogative. The main reason others don't do the same thing is that they are neither fit enough nor good enough.
5. Now I have answered all your points, perhaps you can say why Canavan and McConville described the first half like they did on Sunday?
Canavan & McConville were commenting on the first half which was a war of attrition. Their comments at the end of the game, the whole 70 minutes as opposed to 35, were much more positive as were the panel on the Sunday Game on Sun night.

I have to say I am amazed at how you focus on one aspect of the game which you didn't like but ignore all the fine things that were also part of the same game. Your belittling of Murphy's magnificent point from 60 metres being a case in point. If you want a debate about negativity I'll line all your posts one after the other & it will overpower anything Donegal, Monaghan, Armagh & Tyrone could do in 20 years.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 22/07/2014 21:43:58    1624543

Yerra these things depend a lot on the culture and tradition you grew up with, one mans deluge is another mans respite. Being from Kerry you grow up loving intricate and devastating forward play (not that we never lacked legendary defenders) but I think if your from up North you might have more gra for the hard hitting defense. Sure isn't it the same in any game, French flair v English orthodoxy in rugby, Kilkenny precision v Clare raw emotion on hurling for example

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 22/07/2014 21:46:32    1624546

tipp11 for me your boys have been a breath of fresh air in this years competition particularly since they entered the qualifiers and I hope their run continues for a bit yet.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 22/07/2014 21:50:08    1624551

@ MuckrossHead

Haha thanks, I was wondering why I get so few replies on these threads! :P

Stats guys:

Love stats so couldn't help myself. Following on from Offsides stats: 2013 points per game in provincial games: Ulster - 25.75, Munster - 36.00, Leinster - 34.30, Connacht - 34.17. 2012: Ulster - 30.13, Munster - 29.80, Leinster - 31.50, Connacht - 32.00. These figures could be skewed from Extra time games as I din't go into that much detail. I honestly was expecting Ulster to consistently provide results like 2013, but it seems like that's not the case. My assumption was based on Ulster teams setting up defensively against each more often than other teams, but the games still provide ample scoring.

An interesting one I looked at though, if you take the All Ireland series [Quarters, semis and final] over the last 3 years, and find what individual teams score per game, you get the following:
Ulster - 13.33
Munster - 16.63
Leinster - 16.18
Connacht - 19.25 (should just read Mayo instead of Connacht)

Judging by that one could say "Oh look Ulster don't score as much as other provinces, come squeaky bum time", but the reality is Mayo represents Connachts representation, Leinster is largely influenced by Dublins 2013 campaign, Munster is pretty solid throughout in fairness, and also a spanner in the works although Ulster is propped up by Donegals 2012 campaign, Ulster have had more non-title contending teams take part.

So where has stats analysis got us? Anyone? Nowhere really. Using a small basis of stats without any real depth of analysis, is pointless. Looking merely at points scored Ulster is right up there with the other provinces, albeit slightly below average. So despite the "negative" tactics, there's no shortage of scores. Is points scored enough of a basis, maybe? I'd be looking more for possession numbers and areas etc. kind of stats to really have a proper debate.

I'll have to agree with Soma on the Ulster final point though, but then Ulster finals are often like that, a chess game. Last sundays was a bad chess game in fairness, but usually they are tense entertaining affairs. Sure the purists will say there's less skill, but then don't watch if it's not your thing. I will be disappointed though if Monaghan and Donegal replicate those performances, come August. Let's see a little more adventure people, Monaghan were afraid to attack too much for fear of Donegal's danger on the counter attack. And Donegal I imagine noticed this very early on and just picked away at the scoreboard. Monaghan will have to be more adventurous to get anywhere, and here's hoping Donegal will replicate their 2012 form. I said during the league I couldn't see an Ulster team breaking into top 4 this year to challenge, and I still stand by that to a certain degree, yet Donegal are making me doubt myself. They are obviously feared in Ulster the way the Ulster champs and National League runners up setup against them, whereas last year teams went for the kill. Should the likes of Dublin be worried? I think so but could still go either way. Is JMG's heart still in it? Will he come up with something against Dublin assuming they get that far? Will Dublin just roll over them? I'm rambling now, by god I'm excited for this years semi-finals could be epic!!

JMK (Kerry) - Posts: 273 - 22/07/2014 21:54:48    1624558

Good considered work JMK.

Ulster was well down on the rest in 2013 when you look at that.

Regarding the points scored it is also a very good point that for Leinster, Munster and Connacht you literally may be talking Dublin, Kerry and Mayo. If you were to take out the highest scoring team from each province how do the figures compare or are there simply not enough other teams at this stage to do any sort of robust analysis (not that any of our stats are exactly robust when you start talking confidence intervals).

I suppose if there is a lack of spread of teams at this stage it probably takes away a little from using this as a measure for Provinces though in fairness you have had a good stab at best indicators like the rest of us.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 23/07/2014 08:11:50    1624573

Actually should maybe be taking off the highest and lowest scoring teams but then that would probably leave us with no sample at all :)

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 23/07/2014 08:15:44    1624574

Muck you are starting to attack the poster rather than the points being made. But anyway
1. It might be Monaghans problem but it shows at least one team on Sunday was playing negative, defensive football, despite some on here claiming otherwise.
2. If you want to use stats you will see Donegal scored far less on average than all the other provincial champions. However only a fool would then say this means they are more defensive, because all stats need context. JMKs stats are probably a little better but still shouldn't be used as any proof of anything.
3. There were 7 Donegal men inside their own 21 when Monaghan goaled. The problem wasn't just Frank fumbling, but also Magees poor challenge where he injured himself, and poor covering.
4. If you don't consider forwards turning their back to the ball and running back to their own half as negative then we view football in entirely different ways. The other option is to do like Kerry, Dublin etc which is to try and win the ball back immediately so another attack can be started. However this involves going man to man and trusting that your players are better than your opponents.
5. You can use a buzz term like war of attrition if you like, but Canavan and McConville used the terms dull and over negative. Why did they say this in your view? Is it because like the rest of us they have been brainwashed by Spillane, or they don't understand the game.
Murphys point was an excellent long range free for sure, but there is little more to say about it. You can see Sheehan hit 2 of them from further out in a club game on YouTube if that's your type of thing. Or even go to the cic fada competition.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 23/07/2014 10:22:37    1624640

Soma I think the crux of your argument is that you believe your outlook on gaelic football = positive, people whose outlook differs = negative.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12120 - 23/07/2014 10:30:49    1624643

It's obviously entirely subjective so you shouldn't be so dismissive of people who can appreciate other aspects of the game.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12120 - 23/07/2014 10:35:33    1624646