Excellent post OffalyBigBall

Suas Sios (None) - Posts: 1550 - 22/07/2014 12:15:34    1623829

Ok - can some of our Spillane disciples clarify what exactly is defensive/negative about Ulster football? You know I love a good stat so have been looking at the 4 Provincial Championships and its actually quite interesting what gets thrown up.

If we look at all the games played and the scores and do an average points scored per game the breakdown is as follows:
Ulster = 31.9 ppg (points per game)
Munster = 32.7 ppg
Leinster = 36.5 ppg
Connacht = 32.7 ppg

So there is actually nothing really between the games to suggest one province is more attacking that the other.

If you then break down the winning margins in each of the Provinces it looks like:

Ulster
0 points
8 points
1 point
6 points
0 points
5 points
13 points
3 points

Munster
6 points
0 points
8 points
2 points
4 points
12 points

Leinster
6 points
4 points
5 points
11 points
2 points
15 points
28 points
16 points
5 points
16 points

Connacht
22 points
8 points
19 points
1 point
5 points
7 points

So could it be that the attack on Ulster football is more to try and hide the fact that other maybe other Provinces can't defend as there clearly is little difference in the attacking side of the game? Has Spillane been exposed. Full story in this weeks Sunday World.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 22/07/2014 12:23:03    1623842

Offside_Rule
County: Antrim
Posts: 1494

1623842
Ok - can some of our Spillane disciples clarify what exactly is defensive/negative about Ulster football? You know I love a good stat so have been looking at the 4 Provincial Championships and its actually quite interesting what gets thrown up.

If we look at all the games played and the scores and do an average points scored per game the breakdown is as follows:
Ulster = 31.9 ppg (points per game)
Munster = 32.7 ppg
Leinster = 36.5 ppg
Connacht = 32.7 ppg


Excellent statistical work there Offside_rule, fair play

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 22/07/2014 12:29:23    1623850

The thread is a thinly disguised we are dublin fcuk the field.
In fairness, there is nothing black and white in this world. The defensive game accentuates positives, such as tackling, passing, counter attacking etc etc. and when the scores do come, they are usually good ones. All donegals points on sunday were well worked, and even murphys free at the end from 65 metres was worth the admission alone.

Donegal minors in the first half played open, attacking football, against a very poor armagh team. It got so boring after 15 minutes, that people were barely clapping the scores at the end.

So I would say there is a balance somewhere to be found. PS, as nice as attacking football is to watch, it will invariably end up in a running down the clock affair, of pulling and dragging and feigning injury. Case and example, the 2 most attacking footballing teams in the country in 2012 semis, and 2013 final. The 2013 final was the worst final in living memory.

So teams will invariably do what they have to do to win a match, irrespective of champagne football. It is all about winning by hook or by crook, and this is what teams will eventually default to in the course of a game, or season.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 22/07/2014 12:29:32    1623851

Fionn
County: Dublin
Posts: 1662

1623746 Breffni39
County: Cavan
Posts: 9388

Attacking Football vs Defensive Football

Well whatever system ye used this year didn't do much for Cavan - call it what you will - Negative or Defensive...

Admin, how come you allow silly juvenile unconstructive rubbish like this, yet constantly censor my posts? Like I've said a million times, please please clarify the standards or else posting is just not worthwhile.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12120 - 22/07/2014 12:30:56    1623854

I want to see the best players doing the things that set them apart of the average club players. Negative football favours picking the fittest - the ultra fit gym bunnies who can run all day. These guys are to be commended for their dedication and commitment but not what I would watch Inter county games for. Attacking football favours the most skillful - the players you want to see play and be amazed by. It's sad when you see Michael Murphy back in his own full back line

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4624 - 22/07/2014 12:36:20    1623860

As someone said, and indeed as Mossy Quinn pointed out in Examiner yesterday, Dubs are not the naive defenceless team some pundits would have you beleive! And in 2011, Dublin played not that differently to Donegal the year after.

Dublin are playing to their strengths which are massive pace and some of the best forwards ever to play the game. Kerry have had the same and in James O'D may very well have another one, so the optimum strategy for both is to get the ball in there as quickly as you can. Hence the great semi final last year.

I have to admit, although I slag Muckross and others :-), that I love watching Donegal. What they do takes huge fitness levels and concentration and discipline. I remember watching them against Kildare in 2011 and was doing stats on it. There were over 25 minutes without a free conceded through a foul. And yet people condemed it as puke football.

Fair enough I think Donegal lost the plot a bit against Dubs in the semi final that year and they just didn't have the stomach last year for a back to back but they will be hard beat.

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 22/07/2014 12:38:41    1623863

Donegalman, did a Dub start this thread?

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 22/07/2014 12:40:41    1623869

I enjoy watching Jimmy's Big Yellow Machine. In 2012 and for most of 2011 they played some great football.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13709 - 22/07/2014 12:53:02    1623889

All I can say is thankfully the British Open was on tv last Sunday.
Both games were dour affairs and the golf provided a welcome distraction to the non challenge from meath in the first game compared by the dour negative affair of the second.
all in all positive football hopefully would win out against the negative stuff more often than not...but wont always be the case

woops (Kerry) - Posts: 2073 - 22/07/2014 12:55:22    1623893

hurlingdub
County: Dublin
Posts: 6255

I agree that Dublin are by no means naive in defending, however they do leave space at the back. Kerry exposed that last year, however they themselves left too much space at the back, and Dublin outscored them.

Donegal have the defensive setup to contain Dublin for large periods, and possibly not concede a goal in the whole game.
But Donegal also have the full forward line that few teams would dream of allowing to go man to man with their defenders.

If Donegal managed to score 3 goal's against Dublin, I suspect the game would be over. Like they don't need to rack up big scores, as they normally don't concede more than 14 points. Considering against Dublin they would be facing a much better attacking outfit, they could concede more, however they would probably score more too.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 22/07/2014 13:05:20    1623901

Attacking football is far better! Tyrone and Donegal ruined football.With cynical and negative football.

snipingfredo (Armagh) - Posts: 45 - 22/07/2014 13:09:57    1623912

It's sad when you see Michael Murphy back in his own full back line

I'd agree with that, I don't mind Donegal being ultra-defensive but dropping Murphy back seems like such a waste.

MichaelO (Tyrone) - Posts: 820 - 22/07/2014 13:13:13    1623914

Some of the best forwards ever to have played the game. That is some statement hurlingdub! Who are you referring too?

DLlegends (Donegal) - Posts: 503 - 22/07/2014 13:19:26    1623925

I quite enjoy seeing M Murphy back defending

Especially in 2011

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 22/07/2014 13:20:28    1623927

snipingfredo
County: Armagh
Posts: 36

1623912
Attacking football is far better! Tyrone and Donegal ruined football.With cynical and negative football.
22/07/2014 13:13:13
MichaelO
County: Tyrone
Posts: 696

1623914
It's sad when you see Michael Murphy back in his own full back line

I'd agree with that, I don't mind Donegal being ultra-defensive but dropping Murphy back seems like such a waste.


First comment, completely hilarious. Armagh of the 00s were one of the most cynical teams around. Yes they could attack from time to time, but not the same way as tyrone could if they were given 100 years to get to their standard. I also remember a waterboy that was sent on to the pitch by their manager to take galvin out of the game. They succeeded. both were sent off, except the waterboy did not reduce armaghs first 15 to 14 men.

Second point, yes it does seem a waste, but face value is very different indeed to what tactically is going on behind the scenes. I would love Murphy to score 6 points in every game, and a goal too, but he was given a roll on sunday and he fufiled it. Same v derry, played very deep. I think you are not going to see him go very far up the pitch in croke park either. Particularly if we get as far as the semis v dublin (sorry monaghan or kildare but this is the way it is going to be).

I love sunny days in july, but the reality is that there are more wet ones in this country than dry ones. we just remember the dry ones for some reason. I think that we have got to be sensible about things. Dublin will go thru the season without a game if teams continue to go out and try to take them on in a showdown. Cork, Derry, Laois, Wexford and Meath have all failed miserably at trying to do this. Suddenly we are in August, and noone has had the vision or the balls to try a defensive tactic against them.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 22/07/2014 13:32:32    1623944

Hmm Winning football thats all that matters.

crossfieldball (Galway) - Posts: 650 - 22/07/2014 14:07:58    1623978

Offside_Rule
County: Antrim
Posts: 1494

1623842
Ok - can some of our Spillane disciples clarify what exactly is defensive/negative about Ulster football? You know I love a good stat so have been looking at the 4 Provincial Championships and its actually quite interesting what gets thrown up.

If we look at all the games played and the scores and do an average points scored per game the breakdown is as follows:
Ulster = 31.9 ppg (points per game)
Munster = 32.7 ppg
Leinster = 36.5 ppg
Connacht = 32.7 ppg

Jaysus Offside don't let that get out - you will have some folk questioning their own identity.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 22/07/2014 14:56:26    1624081

Ah now DL Legends, you could nearly guess them yourself: Brogans, Dermie, Mack, Flynner, and a few more who are only getting into their stride.

hurlingdub (Dublin) - Posts: 6978 - 22/07/2014 15:02:13    1624092

It really is funny how defensive (excuse the pun) people get over this attacking/defending debate.

Right, being from Kerry perhaps my ideal of watching football is skewed, also the fact I play either as a forward or an attacking half back, but I'll always choose attacking football. Saying that though there is a lot of teams labelled as "negative" that I think is incorrect. Now I'm not a Donegal fan as I'm still sour over paying into croker to see the Semi final in 2011, but they're not that negative of a team. They (arguably) played the best attacking football in 2012. Fair enough 2011 was a pain to watch but in their defense they built on that and played great counter attacking football in 2012. 2013 was a write off, but judging by the Ulster final this week, have they reverted back to 2011, to gain momentum again? I wasn't impressed at all by the Ulster final, I thought if Monaghan had played a bit more intelligently they could have won hands down. Which Donegal team shows up in the QF is the big question for me. I hope it will be the team of 2012, who were extremely entertaining, but if it's the 2011/Ulster final team, then I'll be disappointed. And final note, JMG knew how Monaghan would set out, I doubt Donegal will have same game plan against different opposition.

In terms of other teams, that have been deemed "negative", one person mentioned Tyrone. Really?? Again, the early days they used the blanket defense to gain a platform, but they went on and built on that. If they were that negative, how were Mulligan, O'Neill, Cavanagh et al winning all stars?? There are some teams who use the blanket and thats all we've seen from them, but you can't call a team negative if they start out defensive and build on that and use counter attacking football.

Final note, defensive to the extreme of both teams putting 14 men behind the ball to me has absolutely no entertaining value. All out attack can, but as shown in croker on sunday, it can also lead to a boring game. The difference is that we at least see skill in the all out attack format. But teams who play with a sweeper (or two), defend well and counter attack, like Tyrone, Donegal and even Dublin at their peaks is extremely entertaining. I think the best games are when either two counter attacking teams face each other, or when all out attack meets counter attacking.

JMK (Kerry) - Posts: 273 - 22/07/2014 15:03:57    1624098