This thread is beyond tedium.

The only stats that matter are who wins their provIncial title and who wins Sam.

Beyond that which teams punch above their weight in any given year I.e. Tipp.

Or which team flops I.e. Cavan/Derry

This continuous handbags about which province is the strongest is irrelevant.

It's equivalent to my Daddy's bigger than your Daddy.

Cleatus (Donegal) - Posts: 125 - 18/07/2014 20:38:05    1621327

Ah now MuckrossHead.

I wouldn't mind heading to the Ulster final on Sunday. Some year I'll have to head to it. A Down man for year's wanted to make the Munster football final and was at it this year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7869 - 18/07/2014 20:40:23    1621329

Lighten up Cleatus - I for one am finding it entertaining.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 18/07/2014 20:44:21    1621331

Legend,

I have a spare ticket if you want it.

You will be sitting among the Kilcar folk, the most knowledgable in the game.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 18/07/2014 20:48:39    1621336

very silly and outdated arguments..in this day and age teams should be playing the same number of games to win sam no matter who they are...maybe with some sort of seeding but the situation at the minute is a joke..compare what galway had to go through compared to anybody in the preliminary round of ulster

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 18/07/2014 20:48:53    1621337

Legend I think you have made your point well with all the details and it is time to leave this now. Kerry win All-Irelands because they are often the best team in the country, it has nothing to do with how weak or strong any province is. For people to say Kerry had an easier provincial campaign than Monaghan last year partly because Kerry hammered Tipperary but Monaghan only beat Antrim by a few points is ridiculous. It is clear that the Tipp side are a better outfit than Antrim, but Kerry attack teams and destroy them, in Ulster teams tend to play much more cautiously. Monaghan were a division 3 team last year and won Ulster. Not only is it unlikely a division 3 team would win out in Munster, but when last have Kerry lost to a team who either weren't in Division 1 or finished in the top few spaces of Division 2 - it just doesn't happen with them. For any county who wants to emulate Kerrys sustained success, they must first of all recognise just how good at producing teams Kerry are. I think Dublin have done this, and now have their own conveyor belt of exciting attacking players coming through, and they will probably reap the rewards in the years ahead.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 18/07/2014 21:01:25    1621340

MuckrossHead,

It's a shame I'm not in a position to accept! I actually was to be heading up to Donegal this summer. Taking in a few places like Galway and Sligo on the way up and down. I'll have to coincide the trip with the Ulster final when I do get around to making the trip.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7869 - 18/07/2014 21:19:10    1621351

For people to say Kerry had an easier provincial campaign than Monaghan last year partly because Kerry hammered Tipperary but Monaghan only beat Antrim by a few points is ridiculous. It is clear that the Tipp side are a better outfit than Antrim

Is that why Antrim were Div 3 last year and Tipp were Div 4. And Antrim beat Tipp the previous year when they met? Galway beat Tipp last year in the AI and Antrim beat Galway the year before. I beg to differ with your assertion, bad and all as we are. One swallow and all that this year in the league when we were a complete shambles :-)

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 18/07/2014 21:57:25    1621381

For people to say Kerry had an easier provincial campaign than Monaghan last year partly because Kerry hammered Tipperary but Monaghan only beat Antrim by a few points is ridiculous. It is clear that the Tipp side are a better outfit than Antrim

Is that why Antrim were Div 3 last year and Tipp were Div 4. And Antrim beat Tipp the previous year when they met? Galway beat Tipp last year in the AI and Antrim beat Galway the year before. I beg to differ with your assertion, bad and all as we are. One swallow and all that this year in the league when we were a complete shambles :-)

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 18/07/2014 21:59:12    1621385

Offside Rule you have a funny way of using stats to make a point. Rather than your convoluted system of Antrim beating Galway in 2012, and Galway beating Tipp in 2013 to prove Antrim are better than Tipp, why not simply use the 2 teams championship meeting in 2012 when Tipp beat Antrim? Or their league meeting this year which Tipp won handily? Its surely a simpler technique? Antrim were relegated from Div 3 in 2013, and Tipp narrowly missed out on promotion from Div 4. This year Antrim finished 3rd from bottom and Tipp won Div 4. They are 2 teams going in very different directions. In any case, for arguments sake lets agree they are similar in standard. Surely then saying Monaghan have a harder provincial campaign than Kerry partly because Monaghan beat average sides by 5 points and Kerry beat them by 17 shows a big flaw in the argument. It is simply a case that Kerry demolish lower division teams, Monaghan struggle to wins against them.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 19/07/2014 11:35:00    1621426

Soma, you were the one who talked about last year ie Monaghan and Antrim etc and how Tipp were a far better team. Don't use previous years examples yourself then give out about me doing the same just cos it doesn't suit the point/dig you are trying to make. We can both play sillybuggers - I can just play it much better than you and that seems to annoy you. You may set your alarm clock a bit earlier in the morning ;-)

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 19/07/2014 12:58:12    1621456

Antrim in fairness won the last Tommy Murphy Cup. Carlow and Leitrim have made noises in recent years about a secondary competition. As some correctly reminded them, when they had the Tommy Murphy Cup the counties wanted it scrapped. Sure what can the GAA do there? They did at least give it a go.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7869 - 19/07/2014 13:08:27    1621458

legendzxix
County: Kerry
Posts: 3390

"Looking at the stats I'm more envious of the northern championship. Being guaranteed 3 games ahead of the All-Ireland series is great preparation. The more games the better".

Holy Jaaz, them Kerry footballers who for years played only four games to win Sam - they must have been at a terrible disadvantage. Advancing into the AI series by not playing as many games as other teams - sure Bomber Liston must have been bored to tears.

#kerrylogic

Knoxboyo (Monaghan) - Posts: 170 - 19/07/2014 13:53:47    1621479

legendzxix
County: Kerry
Posts: 3390

1621293
@GaryMc82 - You're a gas man. There's no Atlantic drift at all. The matches highlighted, and I've watched those games, suggest no hindrance or disadvantage at all for the Ulster champions heading into the All-Ireland series. It's ludicrous to lay the blame for their championship exit in the All-Ireland series on the games they played to get there. They were simply beaten by better teams on the day.

Are you sure there is no hinderance? Did you watch Donegal's games in Ulster as defending champions last season? When you see players like Frank McGlynn and Ryan Bradley ( v Down in Ulster SF ) and Mark McHugh ( v Monaghan in Ulster final ) going off with Concussion and also a perforated ear drum in McHugh's case, then perhaps an argument could be made if somebody wished.


Some posters from the North seem to be trying to erase the history of prior to the 90's where Ulster teams were not challenging for All-Irelands that much at all. It's been a remarkable turn around since then in fair. Ulster is a strong and competitive province. There's no doubts about that whatsoever. It's also a great launching pad for the All-Ireland series and is football gold. All players want regular competitive games. Ulster has that. Just as playing in division 1 of the league is good championship preparation. The Ulster championship is by far the ideal platform for entering in the All-Ireland series.

I would suggest Munster is the Ideal platform for entering and winning the All Ireland series, and the statistics would probably back this up.

I don't think too many would really want to erase the football history prior to the 1990's, It makes the transformation even more stunning. Especially considering the likes if Down, Derry and Tyrone only won their first Provincial titles in the late 1950's, and Donegal won their first Provincial title in the early 1970's. By which stage your own Kerry had a truck load of All Ireland's.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 19/07/2014 16:33:42    1621528

Offside Rule you have read the situation incorrectly if you think I am annoyed, I am simply amused. To compare teams I would use their results against each other, particularly if they have played in both league and championship ties in the past 3 years, rather than how they done against a randomly selected third county. And I assure you there is no dig, I just think all sides and provinces should be respected in the finest traditions of the game, rather than silly slurs being cast at great footballing counties like Kerry. The All-Ireland champions are the best team in the country any given year, to dispute this is simply disrespectful. If we look at the hurling situation Galway and Antrim used to make the All-Ireland semi-final most years but rarely won it, simply because they were not the best hurling team in the country most years.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 19/07/2014 19:24:50    1621593

Armagh won the most Ulster titles in the last decade. They are going along nicely in the qualifiers. Are they on the way back?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7869 - 19/07/2014 20:25:16    1621625

some signs of it anyway...good to see...mcgeeneys involvement seems to have had an effect

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 19/07/2014 20:30:12    1621628

Fair enough Soma. I just found it amusing myself that you tend to hold up Antrim as some sort of standard for Ulster in your debating - both in this topic where you brought us in to the equation by saying Tipp were a far better side and in the previous topic of the uneven qualifier groups where you talked of Limericks easy victory over us. If we were in the top 4 in Ulster or if the two examples mentioned the teams were way ahead of us then I would have no arguement but in fairness there was nothing between us and either team either in the games against each other or over recent seasons.

I don't know what the situation is in either county but I do know where we are in Antrim having played for both club and county and the inner workings. We struggle to get anywhere near our best footballers to represent the County for one reason or another and the recent match against Limerick we were down 5 more of our starting 15 from the Provincial Championship games. Yet with this considered we are not miles behind the teams as you would insinuate but I would say more on a par.

Anyway, in the wider debate I for one wouldn't be using us as any sort of yardstick as for a number of decades now we have been around the bottom of the Ulster ranking.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 20/07/2014 12:13:37    1621828

After a few daggers were thrown, this thread did create debate. At the end of the day it's widely acknowledged that the best team wins the All-Ireland regardless of province. I'm just going to make a general point:

May 25 QF Derry 0-11 Donegal 1-11
Jun 15 QF Monaghan 1-12 Tyrone 0-14

Jun 22 SF Donegal 3-16 Antrim 0-12
Jun 28 SF Armagh 0-14 Monaghan 0-14 (Replay: Jul 6 Monaghan 1-18 Armagh 1-13)

Jul 20 FNL Donegal v Monaghan

Aug 2-4 Q4B Ulster RUnner-up v Armagh/Kildare

Aug 9 All-Ireland Quarter-finals

The Ulster finalists are going to be well prepared for the All-Ireland series. Their 3 rounds including the final have been reasonably spaced. The Ulster runners-up will have 13 days to prepare for a 4B qualifier. The Ulster winner is going to have 3 weeks to prepare for an All-Ireland quarter-final. The Leinster championship is in the same boat:

Jun 08 QF Dublin Region 2-21 Laois 0-16
Jun 15 QF Carlow 0-6 Meath 7-13

Jun 29 SF Dublin Region 2-25 Wexford 1-12
Jun 29 SF Kildare 0-17 Meath 2-16

Jul 20 FNL Meath v Dublin Region

Aug 2-4 Q4B Leinster Runner-up v Armagh/Kildare

Aug 9 All-Ireland Quarter-finals

People go on about Champions League groups of at least groups of 4 with at least 3 games. The Ulster and Leinster champions in fairness are well set-up for a tilt at the All-Ireland series. Their games are reasonably spaced and being guaranteed 3 provincial games, if you win your province, is the best way to prepare for the All-Ireland series. It's clearly debatable whether the stiffness of the opposition in Ulster is an hindrance or a help. People in Ulster seem to view it as a hindrance where as people outside of the province look on it as football gold and by far the best way to be ready for the All-Ireland series.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7869 - 20/07/2014 13:04:55    1621841