What is bull is the notion that competitive games are a hindrance to a team's success.

Well, They certainly are if you get beaten in them.

Ha, retort of day. Good man s goldrick - made me smile.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 18/07/2014 15:29:25    1621197

Treaty_Exile
County: Limerick
Posts: 267

1621182
GaryMc, I see posters regularly saying Ulster is the strongest province, and looking down on the other three provinces. I also think there is an attitude out there that Kerry would have less, or even far less All-Irelands in Ulster (one poster quite ridiculously suggested they would be lucky to have 10 All-Irelands, although I trust that opinion is very much in the minority). What these posters fail to grasp is that Ulster being a strong province (and it has been) is a recent phenomenon. In the 130 years of the GAA, Ulster has been consistently good since the 1990's, and only rarely before that.

The All-Ireland Championship started in 1887. Ulster did not have a finalist until 1911. Ulster did not have a, All-Ireland winner until 1933. Sam Maguire did not go North of the border until 1960, when Down won the All-Ireland, and even at that they were only the second Ulster county to win Sam.

In the first 100 years of the Championship, Ulster had won...eight All-Irelands. In the 1970's and 1980's, Ulster produced two All-Ireland finalists, and neither won it. It is undeniable that Ulster, in the first 100 years of the Championship, were producing the weakest winner almost perenially.

In the 1990's, under the same system, Ulster went from not only being comepetitive, but being brimmed with quality. From 1991 to 1995, Ulster produced a finalist each year, winning four and Tyrone were very unlucky not to win in 1995.

In the 2000's, they continued to be the strongest province, with Tyrone and Armagh winning 4 All-Irelands and Derry, Donegal and Fermanagh making semi-finals.

I don't believe Ulster is very strong at present, although I still hear it being described as such. Donegal and Monaghan are good sides, I don't think they're genuine All-Ireland contenders, but I could be proven wrong, and fair play to them if I am. But with the final round of qualifiers not even played, six Ulster sides are gone, and I think one of the three remaining are no great shakes. But that's not me saying Ulster is dead. Ulster will be back, and maybe soon enough!

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 18/07/2014 15:39:36    1621200

Offside_Rule
County: Antrim
Posts: 1472

1621197
What is bull is the notion that competitive games are a hindrance to a team's success.

Well, They certainly are if you get beaten in them.

Very good, but what I mean is that a team that wins a competitive games is somehow at a disadvantage for the next game.

Superglue (Kerry) - Posts: 1283 - 18/07/2014 16:04:57    1621210

Offside_Rule
County: Antrim
Posts: 1472

1621136
Thought forums were for opinions?

Of course they are and that wasn't what I meant. People were giving opinions which are just that. Myself and others have done analysis and so have facts to back up our opinions. The debate is therefore at the point where opinions alone don't cut it. That was all.

You have your interpretation of results as facts, that doesn't make it fact. These are also opinions.
There was a 'fact' earlier that when munster teams win the all ireland they are easier win because of a higher scoring average.
I can copy an past the same results, analyse it and state that the higher winning margins by a munster team is because they are more effective at winning games therefore a better team over all.

Superglue (Kerry) - Posts: 1283 - 18/07/2014 16:22:20    1621220

Kerry lads seriously stop trying to wind everyone up- clearly this is not a serious argument

You had to beat a poor cork side to win munster

For Monaghan to win Ulster they have beat Tyrone, Armagh after a replay and then have to beat Donegal in the final

Doesn't take a genius to work out which is harder

Also the league is not a true reflection of a team- yes to some extent it is used as a base however some teams do not take the league as serious as championship( quite an obvious point I know but one that needs to be made!!)

goalpost (Armagh) - Posts: 215 - 18/07/2014 16:38:45    1621225

@GaryMc82 - there is not problem with my stats. The title of the thread is "Ulster champions ahead AI Series '03-'13". For obvious reasons as a result, they were the results I compiled.

I am not looking at which province is stronger nor am I saying one is stronger than the other. I am not looking to show why Ulster is not generally stronger nor am I even suggesting that Ulster is not strong.

It is very understandable as to why I have listed Ulster champions results only. I set about to apply the northern logic to the Ulster champions. I haven't been biased in my comments at all. From the results compiled it's a fair argument by using the northern logic that more of Ulster's champions should have gone on to win an All-Ireland. The fact they did not is not a poor reflection of a competitive and strong Ulster championship. It is in fact a poor reflection on the northern logic. It's ridiculous to suggest counties from other provinces are winning All-Irelands due to the province they are coming out of. This is the northern logic being applied by a minority from the north. From the stats compiled I haven't seen anything to hinder the respective Ulster champions from winning an All-Ireland. More importantly I've seen a lot of those games and I know that argument does not stand up at all. Some wish to persist with it. Maybe they find a source of comfort in it?

I've never claimed the strongest province is decided on a single team winning the All-Ireland. You're making one of my point there in the last paragraph. The All-Ireland champion is a team that existed that season, in some cases over a number of seasons, who were of that standard. You are fully right that provincial strength is based on the competition within the province. It's something which I've not argued against at all. My argument is simple. There's a northern logic that counties in other provinces have an advantage going into the All-Ireland series. I don't accept that at all and believe the opposite is the case.

I've used Ulster champions as they were the best team in their province in those particular years. The games of the champions were a mix of tough tasks but also games you'd expect them to get through. I watch a lot of the Ulster championship games. I've good time and respect for the Ulster championship. 2 of the 3 teams the Ulster champions usually beat on their way to a provincial title are teams other counties in other provinces are beating of a comparable level or are else counties similar of standard to the Ulster champion would expect to beat in the qualifiers.

Ulster champions have as good an opportunity as an other provincial champion.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 18/07/2014 16:43:57    1621228

Treaty_Exile
County: Limerick
Posts: 268

1621182
GaryMc, I see posters regularly saying Ulster is the strongest province, and looking down on the other three provinces. I also think there is an attitude out there that Kerry would have less, or even far less All-Irelands in Ulster (one poster quite ridiculously suggested they would be lucky to have 10 All-Irelands, although I trust that opinion is very much in the minority). What these posters fail to grasp is that Ulster being a strong province (and it has been) is a recent phenomenon. In the 130 years of the GAA, Ulster has been consistently good since the 1990's, and only rarely before that.

Ulster is certainly the most competitive and most balanced provincial championship. You may take exception to this, but the last 23 years have really demonstrated this. I couldn't see any other province produce 5 x different All Ireland Champions, with 9 x All Ireland titles in a 23 year period.

Perhaps the real Issue is with some less than modest poster's, rubbing Kerry the wrong way by suggesting they wouldn't be as successful if they were based in Ulster. I can understand people getting upset with this, as it's disrespectful to Kerry and their achievements. And regardless of what the Intended point of that argument was, It ended up being Insulting to Kerry and others.

Now with historical argument, Ulster had All Ireland's in the 1930's( 2 ), 1940's ( 2 ), 1950's ( 1 ) and 1960's ( 3 ), which was consistant and respectable. The standard slipped in the 1970's and 1980's dramtically, which is understandable in many ways with the troubles in the North in full swing and other factors playing a role.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 18/07/2014 16:53:51    1621232

@GaryMc82 - there is not problem with my stats. The title of the thread is "Ulster champions ahead AI Series '03-'13". For obvious reasons as a result, they were the results I compiled.

I am not looking at which province is stronger nor am I saying one is stronger than the other. I am not looking to show why Ulster is not generally stronger nor am I even suggesting that Ulster is not strong.

It is very understandable as to why I have listed Ulster champions results only. I set about to apply the northern logic to the Ulster champions. I haven't been biased in my comments at all. From the results compiled it's a fair argument by using the northern logic that more of Ulster's champions should have gone on to win an All-Ireland. The fact they did not is not a poor reflection of a competitive and strong Ulster championship. It is in fact a poor reflection on the northern logic. It's ridiculous to suggest counties from other provinces are winning All-Irelands due to the province they are coming out of. This is the northern logic being applied by a minority from the north. From the stats compiled I haven't seen anything to hinder the respective Ulster champions from winning an All-Ireland. More importantly I've seen a lot of those games and I know that argument does not stand up at all. Some wish to persist with it. Maybe they find a source of comfort in it?

I've never claimed the strongest province is decided on a single team winning the All-Ireland. You're making one of my point there in the last paragraph. The All-Ireland champion is a team that existed that season, in some cases over a number of seasons, who were of that standard. You are fully right that provincial strength is based on the competition within the province. It's something which I've not argued against at all. My argument is simple. There's a northern logic that counties in other provinces have an advantage going into the All-Ireland series. I don't accept that at all and believe the opposite is the case.

I've used Ulster champions as they were the best team in their province in those particular years. The games of the champions were a mix of tough tasks but also games you'd expect them to get through. I watch a lot of the Ulster championship games. I've good time and respect for the Ulster championship. 2 of the 3 teams the Ulster champions usually beat on their way to a provincial title are teams other counties in other provinces are beating of a comparable level or are else counties similar of standard to the Ulster champion would expect to beat in the qualifiers.

Ulster champions have as good an opportunity as an other provincial champion.

I feel your perspective on this is all wrong. Of course the Ulster champions have as good as opportunity as any other provincial champion. But from an individual counties perspective it is extremely advantageous to be playing in the Munster championship, if you are Kerry or Cork that is. At the beginning of the year you are one win away from the last 12, this year we have played 4 games so far, the 5th will determine if we can get to the same stage of the championship as Cork.

Also another important thing to note, Ulster counties have had more teams going to reach the All Ireland final in the qualifiers then any other province. Armagh 2003, Tyrone 2005 and 2008 and Down in 2010. This highlights the strength in depth Ulster has.

For the record I don't buy into the theory that the Ulster champions are necessarily the best in that given year. There was no way Armagh were a better team then Tyrone in 2008 for example.

JP91 (Armagh) - Posts: 316 - 18/07/2014 17:08:47    1621242

legendzxix
County: Kerry
Posts: 3377

1621228

But your argument isn't clear, and If anything drifts off into the Abyss. After reading your comments, I am still none the wiser to your original point. Even the heading of your thread doesn't fully make sense, and the stats for that reason don't back up your argument.

And you repeatedly say "Northern Logic", which Literally suggests that the Majority of the Northerner's share the same Logic. Change the wording as this is Incorrect, as it causes further confusion to your posts.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 18/07/2014 17:15:27    1621244

What a strange phrase 'Northern logic' is.. What is it all about? How does it work?? Can anyone have 'northern logic' or is it something that is taught only in schooling system in the North?? I was educated using the same school system as people in Kerry, does this mean I have 'southern logic' or do I have 'northern logic'?? I'm baffled....

HandballRef (Donegal) - Posts: 520 - 18/07/2014 17:21:42    1621246

Kerry have taken the qualifier route to finals as well. Our last All-Ireland came from Q2 having lost a Munster semi-final replay. At the end of the day the cream rises to the top. Champions don't look for excuses. They simply get on with it. Dublin Region struggled in the All-Ireland series for a while. They've worked to get to a level where they are competing now for All-Irelands and probably are the clear favourites.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 18/07/2014 18:10:00    1621263

GaryMc82
County: Derry
Posts: 1223

Ulster is certainly the most competitive and most balanced provincial championship. You may take exception to this, but the last 23 years have really demonstrated this. I couldn't see any other province produce 5 x different All Ireland Champions, with 9 x All Ireland titles in a 23 year period.

Perhaps the real Issue is with some less than modest poster's, rubbing Kerry the wrong way by suggesting they wouldn't be as successful if they were based in Ulster. I can understand people getting upset with this, as it's disrespectful to Kerry and their achievements. And regardless of what the Intended point of that argument was, It ended up being Insulting to Kerry and others.

Now with historical argument, Ulster had All Ireland's in the 1930's( 2 ), 1940's ( 2 ), 1950's ( 1 ) and 1960's ( 3 ), which was consistant and respectable. The standard slipped in the 1970's and 1980's dramtically, which is understandable in many ways with the troubles in the North in full swing and other factors playing a role.

All sound points from where I'm standing GaryMc

Firstly, I take no exception to the comment that Ulster is the most competitive and balance province. In fact, I rarely remember a period of dominance by any team in Ulster. I also do not argue with, and never have argued with, the claim that Ulster has been the strongest province overall in the past 23 years. This was true in the 90's, and true in the 00's (not to the extent that some claim, but true all the same).

And you're probably right in relation to the outrageous claims of a few, 'few' is the key word. I won't comment on the effects of the troubles, quite young at the time and not on my doorstep, but I'll accept the point!

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 18/07/2014 19:05:09    1621288

@GaryMc82 - You're a gas man. There's no Atlantic drift at all. The matches highlighted, and I've watched those games, suggest no hindrance or disadvantage at all for the Ulster champions heading into the All-Ireland series. It's ludicrous to lay the blame for their championship exit in the All-Ireland series on the games they played to get there. They were simply beaten by better teams on the day.
Some posters from the North seem to be trying to erase the history of prior to the 90's where Ulster teams were not challenging for All-Irelands that much at all. It's been a remarkable turn around since then in fair. Ulster is a strong and competitive province. There's no doubts about that whatsoever. It's also a great launching pad for the All-Ireland series and is football gold. All players want regular competitive games. Ulster has that. Just as playing in division 1 of the league is good championship preparation. The Ulster championship is by far the ideal platform for entering in the All-Ireland series.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 18/07/2014 19:13:52    1621293

Legend, I think neither the Ulster Championship nor the Munster Championship are 100% ideal. The Ulster Championship, if you get a tough draw, particularly from the Preliminary round, would be an arduous process. There is too much time between the Munster final and the All-Ireland series, and I think Kerry would have been better off with a tougher challenge from Cork. Neither are perfect. If you could have two decent games and a fortnight off before the All-Ireland series, that would be perfect, but the Championship system isn't perfect I suppose!

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 18/07/2014 19:33:09    1621298

One major stat ye have all missed, Kerry are the only county who have never lost a qualifier game, played 11 won 11, this is even more impressive with the fact that they join the qualifier race later than most and as a result have harder games, add that to the fact that they are the worst prepared with there easy provincial championship, now put that in yere Ulster pipes and smoke it.

giveballaghback (Roscommon) - Posts: 296 - 18/07/2014 19:39:23    1621299

I'm not sure why people feel strongly about this stuff one way or the other really.

MichaelO (Tyrone) - Posts: 820 - 18/07/2014 19:49:03    1621301

giveballaghback
County: Roscommon
One major stat ye have all missed, Kerry are the only county who have never lost a qualifier game, played 11 won 11, this is even more impressive with the fact that they join the qualifier race later than most and as a result have harder games, add that to the fact that they are the worst prepared with there easy provincial championship, now put that in yere Ulster pipes and smoke it.

Great point giveballaghback and fair play for making that point.

This is probably part of the reason I'm discussing the Ulster championship. They've such a fine championship and it's such a great launching pad for the All-Ireland series, it's absolutely crazy to be using it as an excuse for not having more success.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 18/07/2014 20:05:18    1621307

There are a few people here who need to get out more.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 18/07/2014 20:06:14    1621308

MuckrossHead
County: Donegal
Posts: 2862

1621308
There are a few people here who need to get out more.

Do tell of your high octane day of motorcycle cliff diving Muckross!

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 18/07/2014 20:26:51    1621318

Absolutely 11/11 qualifiers and 100% record is not to be scoffed at. It doesn't matter the quality of the opposition as you still have to beat them. For those interested these 11 teams were:

2002
Wicklow, Fermanagh, Kildare

2006
Longford

2008
Monaghan

2009
Longford, Sligo, Antrim

2010
Westmeath, Tyrone, Clare

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 18/07/2014 20:32:46    1621322