Naysayer
County: Antrim
Posts: 720

1620220 Greengrass that is because as I have acknowledged in an earlier post that Kerry are a consistently strong team with a fine tradition and have a surer and less taxing path to the All Ireland final keeping them fresher for the given year and crucially for the following year when other teams struggle to come back through a tougher route. And all the whike they are right at home in Croke Park.

And more so because by a distance they are the greatest football county of them all. They produce the best players, the best teams and they know more about winning than anyone else. I think "fine tradition" is a little understated. Don't you too ?

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 16/07/2014 14:11:40    1620226

Greengrass, many things contribute to this fine tradition.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 16/07/2014 14:13:58    1620227

Naysayer
County: Antrim
Posts: 718

1620192
Are you ignoring my point? I said the Ulster champions were seen as a bye for the majority of the Championship's previous existence. That is completely true. Kerry were only delighted to get the Ulster Champions in an All-Ireland semi-final. And that was the best team in Ulster.

Or maybe Ulster was always competitive meaning it was difficult to get to the All Ireland semi finals on a regular basis. In a players lifetime he may not have had a chance to get used to the big occasion meaning that when Ulster teams did hit Croke Park they had to overcome the occasion as well as the opposition.

Kerry on the other hand getting to Waltz here year after year were familiar with the surrounds and only had to concentrate on going out and playing football. In addition this familiarity and the knock on of being able to perform meant more games were won, creating a winning mentality and also a fear of the jersey for the opposition.

And so the vicious circle continued until qualifiers came in and more Ulster teams got a chance to get used to playing in Croke on a regular basis and with it came more success.

That has to be the worse excuse of the lot.

Superglue (Kerry) - Posts: 1283 - 16/07/2014 14:14:40    1620228

Just a summary from myself on this.

Ulster was the strongest province in Ireland in the early to mid 90's. That cannot be disputed. It probably retained that title throughout the 00's, but I think that superiority was overblown, and based on the achievements of just 2 of its teams. Did Kerry actually lose to anyone in Ulster outside of these two during the 00's? No. They beat Armagh twice and drew with them once in the 4 games they had with them. They lost by a point on the other occasion. A problem with Ulster? No. A problem with Tyrone? Certainly. And I have no reason to be biased in favour of Kerry, don't mention 2004 to me.

Do I think Ulster is a weak province? Right now, I don't think it's great. It's competitive, it's entertaining and open, but I think it lacks quality RIGHT NOW. I know Ulster will climb again. These things go around in circles.

Am I embarrassed by this thread, as others have suggested I should be? No. I raised perfectly reasonable points, it was up to others to throw toys if they wished to, and they did. A lot of Ulster fans love having a cut at others, but clearly cannot take any (perfectly valid) criticism. There's a lot of self-promotion going on about the Ulster Championship, and I challenged that. It was tough to take, by the looks, but I'm not for turning. I've re-read what I wrote, and I'm satisfied that people are getting overly hot and bothered. I did not write the death warrant of Ulster football. A few posters have acknowledged that.

I deeply respected Tyrone's excellent team of the 00's, and if they weren't team of the decade, at the very least they left a serious blot on Kerry's legacy during the 00's. Nobody can deny that. I always love to see Down doing well, and they were my favourite team of the 90's, a brilliant team.

And why is it not okay to write a thread like that discussing the merits of a particular province? The provincial championships are an integral part of the All-Ireland championship, it is a very suitable topic for discussion.

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 16/07/2014 14:15:10    1620229

Most importantly knowhow, great players and great teams. They have had way more of those than anyone else. read Princes of The Pigskin. A great book.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 16/07/2014 14:16:44    1620232

Treaty_Exile
County: Limerick
Posts: 256

The points I basically raised:

Is Ulster Competitive: Yes
Is Ulster as strong as some would have you believe: Not right now it isn't.
Do Ulster have a genuine All-Ireland contender: I don't think so.


Treaty,

No argument at all about the first two points.
With regard to the third point it is more difficult to be definitive. I can't speak for Monaghan but I can say that Donegal haven't peaked yet & with 4 weeks preparation behind them, Sunday will tell us a lot more about whether they are contenders or not.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 16/07/2014 14:18:36    1620234

Most importantly knowhow, great players and great teams. They have had way more of those than anyone else. read Princes of The Pigskin. A great book.

Familiar with the big stage = knowhow.

Great players and great teams generally get recognised because of success - for me Kevin Madden of Antrim was one of the finest players of his generation but is not held in the same regard as some players who were no better or perhaps not even as good as him.

Likewise Armagh of approx 10 or more years ago were an excellent team and probably would be considered one of the all time greats had they added to their AI haul but happened to be about at a time when there were more serious challengers than ever.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 16/07/2014 14:35:20    1620243

Look I am actually not comfortable with bashing Kerry, it is not my intention and as I have said they are the Kingpins of GAA. What I am doing is defending Ulster and trying to throw in a bit of perspective that the uneven nature of reaching All Ireland quarter-finals today and semi-finals in the past means that it is very difficult to truely measure teams or provinces on a like for like basis.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 16/07/2014 14:47:02    1620250

I love Ulster football and it's teams. Similarly I acknowledge Kerry as the greatest football county. They have had more great teams and great players than anyone else and that is the primary reason for their success and greatness. Dessie Barry was a great player too as was Kevin O Brien as was Micky Kerins and many others.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 16/07/2014 15:04:29    1620255

Treaty - it's posters like you that drives a wedge between counties etc. You posited this yourself in your opening post when you had asserted people will take it up wrong ; obviously they will because the thread title contains negative connotations towards Ulster . Can you also show us where Ulster posters at this present in time claim Ulster is really strong. In my opinion ,Ulster does not have the vigour of past years but IMO it is still the most difficult to win .
I think Kerry are rightly regarded as the aristocrats of Gaelic football . Do I think they would have the most All-Ireland's if they resided in Ulster- probably but not as many .

TheRightStuff (Donegal) - Posts: 1688 - 16/07/2014 15:13:22    1620261

Success breeds success. Having a better chance of that success gives you more change to breed more success.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 16/07/2014 15:14:01    1620262

16/07/2014 14:47:02
Naysayer
County: Antrim
Posts: 723

1620250
Look I am actually not comfortable with bashing Kerry, it is not my intention and as I have said they are the Kingpins of GAA. What I am doing is defending Ulster and trying to throw in a bit of perspective that the uneven nature of reaching All Ireland quarter-finals today and semi-finals in the past means that it is very difficult to truely measure teams or provinces on a like for like basis.


That still bashes Kerry as you are claiming that Kerry had an easier run and therefore wouldn't have won as many All Irelands. I firmly believe the best county wins the All Ireland every year. No matter what system was in place or is now in place, the best team always wins. Before the Qualifiers teams knew exactly what was needed of them to win an All Ireland. I can understand how in a competitive province that winning Ulster means a lot to teams, but to say that teams just wanted to win Ulster and not care about the All Ireland is sad. It's like saying Spain only wanted to win the Euros and didn't care about the World Cup. The best players want to win the top prize and they do so.

@ Treaty
Look bud, you've made your point. You can see there are some very reasonable football fans from Ulster that can see what you're saying and haven't gone on the defensive straight away. They've made fair and respectful arguments and some have agreed. For the others that have a chip on their shoulder, and who have to stab at Kerry's successes (how did that start exactly in this thread?), there's no point even arguing they can't view football from a neutral stand point. Thankfully it's just a limited number of Ulster fans, I think just these guys have louder voices than others. I get the whole history of how Ulster footballers (especially the Northern counties) had to fight for their identity, but why you can't see things from a neutral standpoint now in this day and age is beyond me. This always reminds me of the song Zombie. Treaty was not attacking Ulster football he was merely posing the question as to whether people agreed with view that Ulster football has taken a small step back in terms of quality, after being so strong for the last 22 years.

And PS. great post by essmac earlier, I hate when this Kerry and Tyrone hate each other topic comes up, as I've never seen it to be case. Albeit I know there a few bad eggs in every county. But as I don't know many Tyrone lads it's nice to see the respect is mutual. Kerry and Tyrone will be battling it out in All Irelands sometime in the near future hopefully!!

JMK (Kerry) - Posts: 273 - 16/07/2014 15:14:51    1620263

more chance to breed success, not more change to breed success.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 16/07/2014 15:20:29    1620273

all this interest in the provinces all of a sudden...I take it Croke Park will be a full house for next years Railway Cup matches!

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2386 - 16/07/2014 15:23:35    1620275

Nah just think there's something in the water SaffronDon - mad I tells ya.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 16/07/2014 15:29:48    1620279

I think Treaty Exile has brought up a valid argument here.
of course ppl wont all agree with him/her but he/she has brought up a good point.
there bas been loads of posters on here this year claiming the rest of the provinces are not worth a damn compared to Ulster.
But in the light of day in the qualifiers the true worth of those Ulster teams is being shown up.

Ulster still have 2 genuine teams capable of winning Sam Maguire in Donegal and Monaghan but just shows because the Ulster championship is competive doesnt mean it has better quality than the other provinces

woops (Kerry) - Posts: 2073 - 16/07/2014 15:31:42    1620280

It is a fact that the provincial system means that team across the country have different paths to reach the later stages of All Ireland competition. If it were an open draw then immediately numbers of games should be even and through time strength of opponents should balance out but as things stand it is difficult to compare teams from different provinces on a like for like basis given the potential for disparity in paths to Croke Park.

This is not bashing Kerry.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 16/07/2014 15:32:34    1620281

Well said naysayer.

Brolly (Monaghan) - Posts: 4472 - 16/07/2014 15:47:05    1620291

To be honest I've lost track of the argument.

Kerry are hands down the greatest footballing county, I believe this is irrefutable. They have been and will continue to be a yardstick for other counties to judge themselves by. However I do believe that had they been playing in Ulster over the last 20 years they would have fewer All Irelands in that timeframe. This is my opinion and not fact, but I think the more tough games you play in a given year the more likely it is you will get beaten.

I also think Ulster football is probably not at the highest standard it has ever been, however it still is at a good standard and in Donegal and Monaghan Ulster has two teams capable of competing for an All Ireland.

What I love about Ulster is the top teams over the era's change. From the great Cavan and Down teams, to the Armagh/Tyrone dominance to the emerging Monaghan/Donegal rivalry. This is what I love about the Ulster championship, new rivalries and teams emerge as others fade. It helps keep things fresh and interesting IMO.

JP91 (Armagh) - Posts: 316 - 16/07/2014 15:50:59    1620295

16/07/2014 15:32:34
Naysayer
County: Antrim
Posts: 724

1620281
It is a fact that the provincial system means that team across the country have different paths to reach the later stages of All Ireland competition. If it were an open draw then immediately numbers of games should be even and through time strength of opponents should balance out but as things stand it is difficult to compare teams from different provinces on a like for like basis given the potential for disparity in paths to Croke Park.

This is not bashing Kerry.

Fair enough you don't agree with the provincial system I'm not a big fan myself. But no it's not difficult to compare teams given the potential for disparity in paths to Croke Park, because when they get to Croke Park that's where you compare them. Just answer me one question: When was the last time the best team in Ireland didn't win the All Ireland?? Some teams may fluke their way to a semi or so, but to an All Ireland?

And yes it is bashing, the way you have gone about your argument, you are being condescending towards counties (not just Kerry) that have won All Irelands through the "easier" provinces. Which again leads me to the same question, when was the last time the best team in Ireland didn't win the All Ireland?

JMK (Kerry) - Posts: 273 - 16/07/2014 16:32:55    1620312