dstuction

I feel sorry for Derry. Yes they got beat badly but they aren't a bad team and I honestly think 9/10 times they would beat Longford.

Nine times out of ten Derry would beat Longford? The two teams have met in the championship three times in the past decade, 2006, 2012. and 2014.

On all three occasions, Longford have knocked Derry out of the championship.

Nine times out of ten? Ha.

towngoal (Galway) - Posts: 14 - 16/07/2014 12:35:45    1620166

essmac
County: Tyrone
Posts: 78

1620142 Earlier post as mentioned, from 2010 or 2011 - it's all still entirely valid:

"Kerry get recognition for their many successes and fine teams, but in
my view Kerry don't get enough recognition for their ability to keep
coming back, year on year.

essmac I think you have hit the nail on the head there. It is extremely difficult to come back and win an All Ireland a second year running. Unless of course you have an easier path to both All Irelands in terms of opposition and number of games to play. You would nearly have the second one won by the time another team from another province is getting over the line for the first.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 16/07/2014 12:36:21    1620167

Essmac, fair play if only other people were as fair minded and balanced in their assessments.

Just to be clear I'm not coming on here to undermine the proud traditions of Ulster teams, I'm just defensive about our own tradition because invariably on sites like this you have fella's (predominately from Ulster for whatever reason) degrading Kerry and pointing to the odd loss we suffered against an Ulster team as some sort of justification for their perception that we don't deserve the tradition we fought so hard to build up and maintain; that we don't deserve to win as many All Ireland's we have.

I've always found it curious why this is so. To take two examples: The Kilkenny team of the 2006-2011 era is rightly regarded as one of the greatest sides to ever grace a GAA pitch. No hurling supporters try and downplay their achievements, no one accuses them of winning soft All Ireland even though from 2000 until the introduction of Galway in Leinster they were streets ahead of any team in their own province and qualified directly for All Ireland Semi Finals. Not even when they beat teams like Waterford and Limerick in finals who were way of their pace.

No one looks at Kilkenny, their status as the greatest hurling county and their 34 All Irelands and says its undeserved or that they wouldn't be any where near what they were if they were in Munster etc, so why the double standard with Kerry?

Secondly, I'm a rugby fan, and like many Irish rugby fans I hate how we have never beat them, I hate what their players get away with on the pitch, but my God do I respect and admire what they are, their rugby culture and what they achieve.

When you think of Rugby the minds eye pictures All Black Jersey's

When you think of Hurling the minds eye pictures Black and Amber Jersey's

And When you think of Gaelic Football the minds eye pictures the Green and Gold of Kerry.

That's the way it is, you can hate us but if you had any sense you would respect us!

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 16/07/2014 12:38:19    1620169

Ulster folk generally react because these stupid threads are started in the first place . Treaty - no they wouldn't . In the 00s , Donegal could either beat Armagh or Tyrone but never both in one year , Kerry couldn't beat Tyrone either . We won a D1 league in 07, beat Armagh in 1st round , then lost to Tyrone . Are you's suggesting Kerry's route was harder ??

PS: well done on your thread treaty ,

TheRightStuff (Donegal) - Posts: 1688 - 16/07/2014 12:40:21    1620171

TheHermit
County: Kerry
Posts: 44

1620133 So statistically your win rate against Ulster teams is 66%. You have to win 3 games in a row at least to win Ulster. 0.66x0.66x0.66 = 0.29.

So from that record Kerry would only win Ulster every 3-4 years, a lot less then they currently win Munster.

I realise that this is a crude measurement but it backs up the perception that Kerry would have won less All Irelands in recent times if they played in Ulster

Jesus H. Christ, are ye down to psuedo maths now to back up this stuff? Here's another one for you so: 36 into 101 = An All Ireland every 2.8 years.

When an Ulster team wins that consistently over that lenght of time ye can have a cut at us. Until then respect what we are, and worry about your own patch.

My god, what excuses would ye throw up if we were up there and managed 3-4 title in a row

Probably something like puke football or blanket defence.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12120 - 16/07/2014 12:47:12    1620175

BUT for me Kerry were always kinpins in the game, a county with a great tradition of success and one that has always and probably will always be in the top 5 teams in the country.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 16/07/2014 12:47:18    1620176

Treaty_Exile
County: Limerick
Posts: 254

1620156
Brolly, if Kerry played in Ulster they would have roughly the same number of All-Irelands. Thr Ulster Champions were seen as a bye for years bar the occasional great Cavan and Down teams. Kerr ,would have struggled up there during the early nineties, and would have struggled with Tyrone in the 00's. Other than that, over the years Kerry would have been roughly as prolific.

------------------------
You make a great point regards Ulster champions historically being seen as a bye. Fair play to Ulster for turning that around. Kerry last two wins before the qualifiers then came knocking out the Ulster champions in the semi-finals.
The qualifiers affords teams the opportunity to recover from provincial knockouts as Kerry showed from Q2 in 09.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 16/07/2014 12:50:39    1620179

TheRightStuff
County: Donegal
Posts: 374

1620171
Ulster folk generally react because these stupid threads are started in the first place . Treaty - no they wouldn't . In the 00s , Donegal could either beat Armagh or Tyrone but never both in one year , Kerry couldn't beat Tyrone either . We won a D1 league in 07, beat Armagh in 1st round , then lost to Tyrone . Are you's suggesting Kerry's route was harder ??

PS: well done on your thread treaty ,

Are you ignoring my point? I said the Ulster champions were seen as a bye for the majority of the Championship's previous existence. That is completely true. Kerry were only delighted to get the Ulster Champions in an All-Ireland semi-final. And that was the best team in Ulster. The point you raise is relevant to the 90's and 00's. Of course that would have been tougher for Kerry, and of course it would still be tougher now. But we're talking about a competition that has existed since the late 1800's. Ulster's strength has only shown itself consistently since the 90's. Bar the occasional great team, like Cavan in the 40's and 50's, or Down in the 60's, Ulster did not generally offer much. That has changed, and in recent years it has come to be seen as arguably the strongest province. I still think it's the most competitive, and I'm not even saying it's the weakest. I just think it's not as 'strong' as some are making it out to be.

And TheRightStuff, I am happy with the thread I put together. The points I basically raised:

Is Ulster Competitive: Yes
Is Ulster as strong as some would have you believe: Not right now it isn't.
Do Ulster have a genuine All-Ireland contender: I don't think so.

Very hard to argue against that. Why would I feel guilty for others, including yourself, throwing their toys out of the pram?

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 16/07/2014 12:58:16    1620184

TheHermit
County: Kerry
Posts: 44

1620169 Just to be clear I'm not coming on here to undermine the proud traditions of Ulster teams, I'm just defensive about our own tradition because invariably on sites like this you have fella's (predominately from Ulster for whatever reason) degrading Kerry and pointing to the odd loss we suffered against an Ulster team as some sort of justification for their perception that we don't deserve the tradition we fought so hard to build up and maintain; that we don't deserve to win as many All Ireland's we have.

Kerry have consistantly won All Ireland's every decade for the past 100+ years. That is something that deserves a deep respect from us all, and a fact that demonstrates that Kerry are historically the most consistantly strong football county in Ireland.

Some of the currently strong Ulster sides were very late arriving at the football table, with Down, Tyrone and Derry all winning their provincial championships in the late 1950's, and it was the 1970's before Donegal won their first provincial title.

Considering those facts, It is astounding how much football has developed in these counties, and how utterly big the sport has become in those and Indeed the other counties of Ulster.

The rate of Improvement has been phenomenal in Ulster since then, with as since 1992 Donegal, Derry, Armagh and Tyrone have all won their first All Ireland titles!! And Tyrone and Donegal have since then added further All Ireland titles to their List of Achievement.
Once they realised they could compete and could win, they started to believe and this had grown further and further. Now the next generation don't look at historically big teams with a mental inferiority complex, they look and see teams they can compete with.

The next step for the likes of Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan, Down, Derry, Armagh etc is how to be consistantly good!! To date we had teams coming in bursts, but with football being so strong, It is perhaps time for them to study why and where they are going wrong in failing to sustain this success beyong 5-8 years.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 16/07/2014 13:08:51    1620189

Are you ignoring my point? I said the Ulster champions were seen as a bye for the majority of the Championship's previous existence. That is completely true. Kerry were only delighted to get the Ulster Champions in an All-Ireland semi-final. And that was the best team in Ulster.

Or maybe Ulster was always competitive meaning it was difficult to get to the All Ireland semi finals on a regular basis. In a players lifetime he may not have had a chance to get used to the big occasion meaning that when Ulster teams did hit Croke Park they had to overcome the occasion as well as the opposition.

Kerry on the other hand getting to Waltz here year after year were familiar with the surrounds and only had to concentrate on going out and playing football. In addition this familiarity and the knock on of being able to perform meant more games were won, creating a winning mentality and also a fear of the jersey for the opposition.

And so the vicious circle continued until qualifiers came in and more Ulster teams got a chance to get used to playing in Croke on a regular basis and with it came more success.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 16/07/2014 13:12:23    1620192

Perhaps to add to my previous point Down in the 60's and Cavan in the late 40's/ early 50's are noted for having All Ireland success. It is perhaps not coincidental that during these periods both these teams had a good run of success at Ulster Championship level meaning their squads would have been familiar with the big occasion.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 16/07/2014 13:20:34    1620195

Does the early 90's not completely disprove this theory Naysayer? Great Ulster successes with no qualifier system, just many talented footballers and teams who were the best in the country - the main reason why any side wins the All-Ireland.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 16/07/2014 13:32:43    1620200

GaryMc82
County: Derry
Posts: 1215

1620189
TheHermit
County: Kerry
Posts: 44

1620169 Just to be clear I'm not coming on here to undermine the proud traditions of Ulster teams, I'm just defensive about our own tradition because invariably on sites like this you have fella's (predominately from Ulster for whatever reason) degrading Kerry and pointing to the odd loss we suffered against an Ulster team as some sort of justification for their perception that we don't deserve the tradition we fought so hard to build up and maintain; that we don't deserve to win as many All Ireland's we have.

Kerry have consistantly won All Ireland's every decade for the past 100+ years. That is something that deserves a deep respect from us all, and a fact that demonstrates that Kerry are historically the most consistantly strong football county in Ireland.

Some of the currently strong Ulster sides were very late arriving at the football table, with Down, Tyrone and Derry all winning their provincial championships in the late 1950's, and it was the 1970's before Donegal won their first provincial title.

Considering those facts, It is astounding how much football has developed in these counties, and how utterly big the sport has become in those and Indeed the other counties of Ulster.

The rate of Improvement has been phenomenal in Ulster since then, with as since 1992 Donegal, Derry, Armagh and Tyrone have all won their first All Ireland titles!! And Tyrone and Donegal have since then added further All Ireland titles to their List of Achievement.
Once they realised they could compete and could win, they started to believe and this had grown further and further. Now the next generation don't look at historically big teams with a mental inferiority complex, they look and see teams they can compete with.

The next step for the likes of Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan, Down, Derry, Armagh etc is how to be consistantly good!! To date we had teams coming in bursts, but with football being so strong, It is perhaps time for them to study why and where they are going wrong in failing to sustain this success beyong 5-8 years.

One of the better posts on this thread, I agree with everything you say. I thought Tyrone would be a force to stay when they were enjoying underage success at the same time as their senior success, but it really hasn't translated. I'm not sure why. But it shows that the material is there for an Ulster team to be successful over a sustained period of time, and it will happen.

By the way, Ulster's improvement since the 90's is certainly a good thing. We need as many teams as possible being competitive. What would have happened during the 00's without Tyrone and Armagh? Kerry would have been looking at about 8 All-Irelands! Chill down the spine stuff! And Ulster will climb up again. I'm just saying that there's a lull right now, and people are construing it in such a way that this is a sign off on Ulster's death warrant. People see what they want to see, ie. what offends them.

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 16/07/2014 13:36:29    1620203

Look let's get this straight once and for all. The greatest football county in the history of Gaelic football is Kerry. Nobody else comes near. This is so because Kerry are the best. They breed the best players put together the best teams and know more about winning than any other county. There have been many great teams from other counties over the years. Their badge of true authenticity comes if they have beaten Kerry. Most counties know when their greatest teams played. Wexford in the teenies, Kildare in the twenties, Galway in the thirties, Roscommon and Cavan in the forties, Meath in the fifties,Down and Galway again in the sixties ,Dublin in the seventies, Cork in the late eighties and very early nineties, Armagh and Tyrone in the noughties and Donegal and this cracking Dublin team now. All great teams and all earned their badge of greatness through beating Kerry. Great teams come and go but the only constant in Gaelic Football is Kerry. They are always there . Not because they have a handy province but because they are the best. It's all very well saying that they would have won less if they were in Ulster That may be so. Ulster counties would have won a lot less if Kerry had operated in Ulster. Would Cavan have their 5 All-Irelands ? Would Down ? One thing is for sure is that if Kerry operated in Ulster they would have more Ulster titles than any other county and they would still have way more All-Ireland titles than any other county because they always have been the one great constant in Gaelic Football. Now can we please move on.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 16/07/2014 13:41:38    1620209

Naysayer, in your post where kerrys results against ulster oppositin is mentioned, you only mention the times they beat the Ulster champions, but also talk about when they were beaten by Ulster champions OR another Ulster team who didnt win Ulster that year. You don't mention times they beat other ulster teams so your post is unfairly biased. You didn't mention when Kerry beat
2002 Fermanagh
2004 Derry
2006 Armagh (you did mention this one)
2007 Monaghan
2008 Monaghan
2009 Antrim
2012 Tyrone
2013 Cavan
Just want to add a bit of balance.
By the way, I'm no expert on Kerry football, had to look up those results

pj_mcmanus (Limerick) - Posts: 431 - 16/07/2014 13:41:51    1620210

Ulster supporters generally support ulster teams and there is a lot of bias towards how they view their own. This mentality does not exist in Leinster or Munster, maybe a bit in connaught. Post Cavan & Down there was'nt much success for ulster teams so besides political reasons you can understand why Ulster supporters would develop a reason to support their neighbours.
However with the constant ulster bias you could not be surprised when the rest of the country points out that ulster is not as strong as ulster people believe at this particular moment in time.
Like someone pointed out that almost all of the ulster posters predict ulster wins for ulster teams. Does it matter? No.
My Top 5 this year:
Dublin
Mayo
Kerry
Donegal
Monaghan

Outside of that you have a lot of teams who are fairly well matched, and that includes Tyrone, Down & Derry who many Ulster people consider better than the likes of meath or roscommon, but they are not, not this year anyway.

jonno (Kildare) - Posts: 260 - 16/07/2014 13:43:33    1620211

Soma I did not say that was the only factor but rather suggested it could be a big one. Maybe if Down, Donegal or Derry could have won 3 or 4 at that time had they not been in Ulster?

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 16/07/2014 13:51:40    1620212

Naysayer
County: Antrim
Posts: 717

1620192 Are you ignoring my point? I said the Ulster champions were seen as a bye for the majority of the Championship's previous existence. That is completely true. Kerry were only delighted to get the Ulster Champions in an All-Ireland semi-final. And that was the best team in Ulster.

Or maybe Ulster was always competitive meaning it was difficult to get to the All Ireland semi finals on a regular basis. In a players lifetime he may not have had a chance to get used to the big occasion meaning that when Ulster teams did hit Croke Park they had to overcome the occasion as well as the opposition.

Kerry on the other hand getting to Waltz here year after year were familiar with the surrounds and only had to concentrate on going out and playing football. In addition this familiarity and the knock on of being able to perform meant more games were won, creating a winning mentality and also a fear of the jersey for the opposition.

And so the vicious circle continued until qualifiers came in and more Ulster teams got a chance to get used to playing in Croke on a regular basis and with it came more success.

Since the advent of the qualifiers Kerry have won 4 All-Irelands which is just 1 less than all of Ulster combined. It is 2 more than Leinster and 3 more than Connacht. Even with all the changes they are still the most successful team of them all . They are also the most successful team in the qualifiers never having lost a match. Since the advent of the qualifiers Kerry have appeared in 8 All-Ireland Finals which is more than all of Ulster combined. And I am a huge fan of the province of Ulster

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 16/07/2014 13:51:40    1620213

Naysayer, in your post where kerrys results against ulster oppositin is mentioned, you only mention the times they beat the Ulster champions, but also talk about when they were beaten by Ulster champions OR another Ulster team who didnt win Ulster that year. You don't mention times they beat other ulster teams so your post is unfairly biased. You didn't mention when Kerry beat
2002 Fermanagh
2004 Derry
2006 Armagh (you did mention this one)
2007 Monaghan
2008 Monaghan
2009 Antrim
2012 Tyrone
2013 Cavan
Just want to add a bit of balance.
By the way, I'm no expert on Kerry football, had to look up those results

Absolutely was I aware of these results but since I was talking in terms of winning the Ulster Championship should Kerry have been in it I did not consider it relevant beating the Antrims, Fermanaghs, Cavans etc who were not Ulster Champions at the time.

The Anglo Celt cup is not handed out for winning a match against a weaker Ulster province in any given year - you have to beat the best so if they did not play the best then I had to discount these years - no bias - just simple logic e.g. you could not say Limerick would have won the Ulster Championship off the back of beating Antrim this year, however should they have stayed in the Championship and then dumped the winners of Monaghan and Donegal you could have made a very strong case.

Likewise I did consider defeats to other Ulster teams as had they been in the Ulster Championship and lost to these teams then they would not have won the Ulster Championship on those years.

So 1 in 7 it is.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 16/07/2014 14:02:32    1620219

Greengrass that is because as I have acknowledged in an earlier post that Kerry are a consistently strong team with a fine tradition and have a surer and less taxing path to the All Ireland final keeping them fresher for the given year and crucially for the following year when other teams struggle to come back through a tougher route. And all the whike they are right at home in Croke Park.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 16/07/2014 14:06:50    1620220