The Hermit
I for one am not Kerry bashing, not running down your FINE tradition and DO respect your great footballing history.
As regards going back to 1911 , I rather concentrate on what happened in my lifetime. What I do know from that period is that teams like Wexford, Limerick,Kildare won AI's.
Also around 1900 London got to three AI' finals.
I barely remember1960/61 Down team but they were the talk of the place, that I do know. Around 1962 I listened to my first Ulster final. Cavan beat Down and if memory serves me right a player called P J Prichard who came on as a sub scored two goals for Cavan. From that on I followed football big time.
The problem was Donegal being so isolated there were very few clubs around and at the time we played no football at all as we had no club plus a lot of young fellows were leaving and I'm talking about 16/17/18 year olds.
But Kerry always seemed to manage and football had to be strong in the county and the fact they always had people who played in and won AI's had to be a plus.
Now if we consider Ulster , we find out Cavan dominated for long periods. No word of TyroneDerryDownArmaghDonegal. In fact Antrim were more to the fore than any of the afore mentioned counties. Once the Five counties I have mentioned started winning Ulster Cavan seemed to fall by the wayside( in the last 40 odd years. ))
There's no argument about it but in the last 10/15 years Ulster teams have got the better of Kerry. And what's also crystal clear is , except for Cork no other county can mount a serious challenge to Kerry in Munster. But again take Donegal ::::we are appearing in our 13 final in Ulster over the last 26 years yet we have only won 4. ( Sundays excluded). And over the last 10 years the other 8 counties in Ulster have beaten Donegal in the championship while Donegal have beaten 7 of the 8 (exception being Monaghan, which can be put right Sunday. )
When we beat Dublin in 1992 I think we were the first Ulster county to beat Dublin in the championship but Tyrone, Armagh, Down and Derry have done it since.
So getting back to the main topic I still think Ulster football is in a good state and whose to know where Monaghan/Donegal and to a lesser extent Armagh will finish up. You can't rule out Sam not coming back to Ulster and IF Monaghan can beat Donegal on Sunday they could be a serious treat to any team.

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 16/07/2014 08:57:20    1620049

Well I don't give a damn how many all Ireland's ye have won hermit - you'd be lucky to have 10 (and that's being generous) if ye weren't in your hurling province and up in ours. Try losing half your clubs for a start to rugby, soccer etc. no Kerry man is on a high horse in my eyes, my eyes, dubs are champs, all that matters.

Brolly (Monaghan) - Posts: 4472 - 16/07/2014 09:25:03    1620058

I have never understood why some people get so worked up about the perceived standard of football in each provience. This craic of somebody taking credit for a county (from their provience) winning the all ireland is delusional beyond belief. Some from Antrim/Fermanagh taking credit for, say Donegal or Tyrone winning is as stupid as someone from Louth or Longford basking in the glory of another Kilkenny hurling title. I don't give 2 figs about how other counties get on. Once donegal are out I don't care who wins. So sick of seeing these threads all the time lately. Can't we just enjoy the football on show for what it is instead of complaining all the time. It's all about county success, not provincial.
Rant over.

I am surprised that you even support your county and do not just stick to your club with that attitude - or even just back the players at your club who live up your road.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 16/07/2014 09:45:23    1620065

Brolly your argument is fatally flawed, by that logic Antrim should have 30+ hurling titles in the back pocket. At the end of the day they won because they beat the teams in front of them you can argue till the cows come home about soft routes etc but they still beat the best of the rest in semi's and finals and saying they wouldn't have won anything in ulster is daft because shy of cavan/down in the 50/60s ulster success is a much more recent phenomenon so there is a chance they would have even more ulster titles than munster.

duckula20 (Antrim) - Posts: 175 - 16/07/2014 10:01:07    1620074

duckula20 it could be argued that Antrim were of a better standard when they were getting straight into All Ireland semi-finals.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 16/07/2014 10:10:10    1620076

I'd agree with you naysayer but in my opinion that is more down to the players available at the time and if we make the argument that some do here, how many all ireland semi's would Antrim have made if they were in Munster. Its a moot point as they weren't but I think that trying to diminish one teams success and arguing 'what if' is pretty fruitless and if as people here seem to want to, define the strength of provinces then lets all go back to the railway cup the onlytrue measure of the relative strengths.

duckula20 (Antrim) - Posts: 175 - 16/07/2014 10:46:13    1620091

Going by some people's logic the qualifiers should be leading to Ulster domination. A competitive province of a high level should have those teams at a higher level that their other province opponents.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 16/07/2014 11:00:08    1620102

Brolly, as I suspected since from your first post your not really a man to have a sensible argument with, so I'll leave you to stew in the bitterness that seems to be evoked by Kerry winning (sorry about 2007, if there is any game we should have lost it was that one).

Sam: 'There's no argument about it but in the last 10/15 years Ulster teams have got the better of Kerry'

Now the following this is just from memory as I don't have time to look up the records and maybe people can shout out if there are any errors.

We will be generous and start from 2000. In the last 14 seasons Kerry's record against Ulster counties in the championship is as follows:

Tyrone P 4, L 3 W 1

Armagh P 4 L1 D1 W 2

Donegal P 1 L 1

Cavan P 1 W 1

Antrim P 1 W 1

Monaghan P 2 W 2

Derry P 1 W 1

Down P 1 L 1

P 15 L 6 D 1 W 9


That's a pretty decent run by one single county I think you'll agree. Has any other county in the other 3 provinces as good a record against Ulster teams. So can people please stop with this bullshite about Kerry winning handy All Irelands and having some complex about Ulster teams.

Jesus when I used be a regular on the old An Fear Rua site, you had people throwing this at Kerry supporters when Dromid Pearse lost a junior club semi final to that crowd from Tyrone back in 2011!!!

Kerry have no complex, we usually just got beat by the better team on a given day and very narrowly most of the time at that.

To get back to original topic, IMO Ulster championship is hyped up to be a lot stronger than it is. I don't think a lot of the counties in it would be anymore successful if they were put in Munster with us and Cork and I don't think we would be any less successful if we were playing up there. You can agree or disagree with that but, I'll make one final point. Go through Kerry's record in the League against Ulster teams in Division 1 they meet year in year out in same 14 year period. I think you'll find its very much in our favour too.

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 16/07/2014 11:07:20    1620105

Id be interested to know peoples views on why Ulster seem to be struggling to produce top quality scoring forwards at the moment. Armagh have Clarke, Donegal Murphy (McFadden now seems past it though Jiggers son looks promising), Derry have Lynch, Monaghan Hughes and McManus, and you could maybe include Quigley from Fermanagh. Compare this to the 90's when Derry had Brolly, Downey & Gormlay, Down had Carr, Blaney, McCartan & Linden, or even 2000's when Tyrone had Canavan, O'Neill & Muggsy, Derry had Bradley & Muldoon, Armagh had McConville, McDonnell & Marsden etc. While people might dispute some of the names included or excluded there, it certainly looks like there are less quality players being brought through. Is there an over-emphasis on fitness and power at the younger ages? Are talented individuals being overlooked and instead players who can play to a system coming through - I notice Ulster minor teams often now play with extra defenders so maybe there isn't room for a less athletic but skilful forward in the game anymore in Ulster underage? While some posters continue to try and undermine Kerrys success, mainly out of jealousy, one thing that is amazing is the number of class forwards they continue to produce. That has nothing to do with them being in a strong or weak province, it is all due to hard work at underage and a love of the game that gets passed on.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 16/07/2014 11:26:42    1620117

Brolly, as I suspected since from your first post your not really a man to have a sensible argument with, so I'll leave you to stew in the bitterness that seems to be evoked by Kerry winning (sorry about 2007, if there is any game we should have lost it was that one).

Sam: 'There's no argument about it but in the last 10/15 years Ulster teams have got the better of Kerry'

Now the following this is just from memory as I don't have time to look up the records and maybe people can shout out if there are any errors.

We will be generous and start from 2000. In the last 14 seasons Kerry's record against Ulster counties in the championship is as follows:

Tyrone P 4, L 3 W 1

Armagh P 4 L1 D1 W 2

Donegal P 1 L 1

Cavan P 1 W 1

Antrim P 1 W 1

Monaghan P 2 W 2

Derry P 1 W 1

Down P 1 L 1

P 15 L 6 D 1 W 9


That's a pretty decent run by one single county I think you'll agree. Has any other county in the other 3 provinces as good a record against Ulster teams. So can people please stop with this bullshite about Kerry winning handy All Irelands and having some complex about Ulster teams.

Jesus when I used be a regular on the old An Fear Rua site, you had people throwing this at Kerry supporters when Dromid Pearse lost a junior club semi final to that crowd from Tyrone back in 2011!!!

Kerry have no complex, we usually just got beat by the better team on a given day and very narrowly most of the time at that.

To get back to original topic, IMO Ulster championship is hyped up to be a lot stronger than it is. I don't think a lot of the counties in it would be anymore successful if they were put in Munster with us and Cork and I don't think we would be any less successful if we were playing up there. You can agree or disagree with that but, I'll make one final point. Go through Kerry's record in the League against Ulster teams in Division 1 they meet year in year out in same 14 year period. I think you'll find its very much in our favour too.

So statistically your win rate against Ulster teams is 66%. You have to win 3 games in a row at least to win Ulster. 0.66x0.66x0.66 = 0.29.

So from that record Kerry would only win Ulster every 3-4 years, a lot less then they currently win Munster.

I realise that this is a crude measurement but it backs up the perception that Kerry would have won less All Irelands in recent times if they played in Ulster.

JP91 (Armagh) - Posts: 316 - 16/07/2014 11:34:56    1620124

Can we park these types of threads. They have been done to death and are going nowhere. As for Kerry winning less than they have already won if they were in Ulster that is probably true. However if Kerry had been included in Ulster then Ulster teams would have a lot less than they have now because Kerry would have picked up a whole pile of the Ulster titles available.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 16/07/2014 11:37:13    1620125

So statistically your win rate against Ulster teams is 66%. You have to win 3 games in a row at least to win Ulster. 0.66x0.66x0.66 = 0.29.

So from that record Kerry would only win Ulster every 3-4 years, a lot less then they currently win Munster.

I realise that this is a crude measurement but it backs up the perception that Kerry would have won less All Irelands in recent times if they played in Ulster

Jesus H. Christ, are ye down to psuedo maths now to back up this stuff? Here's another one for you so: 36 into 101 = An All Ireland every 2.8 years.

When an Ulster team wins that consistently over that lenght of time ye can have a cut at us. Until then respect what we are, and worry about your own patch.

My god, what excuses would ye throw up if we were up there and managed 3-4 title in a row

I've made my point I'll leave it for the rest of ye to ponder

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 16/07/2014 11:53:13    1620133

Kerry's most recent All-Ireland came after losing a Munster semi-final replay and entering Q2.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 16/07/2014 11:55:25    1620136

'I'm not anti-Ulster, but …' is starting to sound a bit like those blokes who call up radio stations to say 'I'm not racist, but [there's too many immigrants taking our jobs …/usual rubbish]'(!)

Treaty is of course right in one thing, re the level of competitiveness within Ulster. He's also right that this should not be confused with Ulster always having a lot of good teams. We don't need to, as even an average or poor Ulster team, once sufficient-revved-up, often will have it in them to down a better neighbour.

And that is/was the problem for Ulster teams - it was more important to down your neighbours than to do much thereafter.

The better team would have been viewing the game as a stepping stone, might not have been at 100% and would have found their form again later in the Summer. (As any good Kerryman knows, 'there's no football played until August'. Kerry have often been shaky enough (by their standards) in the early season - and invariably dynamite come August or September.)

But Ulster counties rarely had that luxury of being able to build momentum inside their province in successive years - you'd often be taken out by a shower of hard-hitting up-for-it no-hopers who saw a better team as their AI final; and who, having dispatched a better team who weren't fully into their stride, would then themselves compound matters by flopping thereafter. And the qualifiers, while an improvement, doesn't really fix this 100% - Tyrone, after playing super football in 05, were caught in 06 by a very ordinary Laois team who then did nothing themselves. Last weekend, Tyrone were very flat and Armagh played like men possessed. It clearly meant that much more for Armagh to beat Tyrone. But here's the rub - Armagh will do nothing from now on in, and Tyrone, as bad as they currently are, would still have been more competitive later on.

As to why there is such spite between Ulster counties, I don't know, but it may be down to the role of the GAA as an outlet for identity, esp during the Troubles.

It wasn't that an easier path to a semi-final guaranteed you you'd win it; but it did allow teams to develop.

That said, to posit that as the sole or even the main reason for Kerry's many successes down the years is unfair - a big part of why Kerry do well is down to the WINNING MENTALITY they have built up over generations inside the county. No Kerry fan will tolerate coming second. The reality is that other counties will (slaps on the back for having 'a good run' and all that loser rubbish) and it's that lack of ruthlessness that has Tyrone where we are now.

As for Kerry football itself, anyone who can't acknowledge Kerry's contribution to Gaelic culture on this island is a mouthy clown, frankly. The problem with older Tyrone folk down the years was not that they didn't respect Kerry football, they feared Kerry football.

I'll dig out an earlier post re why I think Kerry football in fact doesn't even get all the recognition it deserves.

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 16/07/2014 11:57:21    1620138

The Ulster Championship is a great competition just as the Munster Hurling Championship is a very competitive competition. The Munster Hurling Championship in my opinion was not any less attractive and it was still great to win even when Kilkenny dominated over the last 15 years. It was frustrating for Kilkenny as much as anyone as they handed out one sided beatings in Leinster while missing out on the glamor of down south. Kerry too have always been a great football county and its unfortunate that have they not played stronger opposition down the years not just Ulster teams when they were at their peak. Certainly since the open draw there has been some great games that would not have occured only for it. Kerry v Dublin 2001, Kerry v Monaghan 2007, Kerry v Galway 2008, Kerry v Dublin 2009, Down v Kerry 2010 and Donegal v Kerry 2012.

Byanthon (Tyrone) - Posts: 1780 - 16/07/2014 11:57:28    1620139

Earlier post as mentioned, from 2010 or 2011 - it's all still entirely valid:

"Kerry get recognition for their many successes and fine teams, but in
my view Kerry don't get enough recognition for their ability to keep
coming back, year on year. (When Tyrone had a good team in the last
decade, they'd be great one year and then fail to get within a mile of
their own standards next year, as in 06 and 07.)

No shame in being beaten the next year by a better team; but to not even be competitive,
or to get near to what you ought to be capable of, is unacceptable. In
the last decade, Tyrone was briefly mentioned in the same breath as
Kerry, eventually. That was a great honour for us, but we're fading
into the background again. Kerry will be back, you can be sure of
that; and their *ability to keep coming back* is arguably the greatest thing
about Kerry. I wish I could be as sure we would come back as well; but
it's just as likely that our successes in the last decade will come to
be seen as a once-off period, akin to Down in the '60s.

Kerry have that ability to play up to their best almost every year.
This is a very difficult thing to achieve. I wonder do people stop to
think just how difficult. The culture in the county helps a bit - all
other counties, bar KK in hurling, see winning an AI as a bonus and
cause for wild celebrations etc. In Kerry, it's the minimum you should
achieve - you won't get too much thanks for winning an AI, but you
will ship criticism for not winning. This drives teams on. It's a
winning mentality, wherein the county competes against and seeks to
live up to its own tradition. This perpetual focus is very difficult
to achieve; complacency after success is a natural state, and this
collective focus in Kerry is something to be greatly admired and
applauded. Most other counties could learn from it.

Gaelic football would be much the poorer without Kerry's devotion to
the cause. They set the standard; and have done so for over a century.
Growing up in Tyrone in the 1970s, everyone supported Kerry against
the Dubs of that era. I've read a few small-minded comments to the
effect that this Kerry team 'isn't as good as' the 70s and 80s team.
Silly talk. This superb Kerry team deserve the highest praise for
keeping their standards unrelentingly high year after year in what has
been a very competitive era. To keep coming back like that is a
tribute, not just to their teams, but to the passion and organisation
in the county generally. Let any team be as competitive as they have
been, year in, year out, and then you can talk."

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 16/07/2014 11:59:55    1620142

legendzxix
County: Kerry
Posts: 3353

1620102
Going by some people's logic the qualifiers should be leading to Ulster domination. A competitive province of a high level should have those teams at a higher level that their other province opponents.


Look at the National League, where normally in the top 2 Divisions we would have maybe 5 or 6 Ulster teams on average ( 31% - 38% representation ). While the National League Divisions are not 100% as an Indication of strength, but neither is the Last 16 or even the Last 8 because of how the Qualifier draw is set up. However generally we can all safely say that the top 12-14 teams in the country reside in the top 2 divisions of the National League.

If Ulster was seeded like Munster, then we would have a more balanced qualifier system. We would likely not have the stronger sides facing off in Ulster Quarter finals, and entering Round 1 of the Qualifiers.

Ulster is not always the best or strongest province every single year, however it's average team strength is normally higher than Connaught or Munster. I personally feel that some year's Leinster and Ulster are neck and neck in terms of the average calibre of teams, but clearly the variety of All Ireland winners and variety of Provincial winners from Ulster would suggest Ulster is on average the strongest in terms of competition within.

This is something that clearly bother some of the more draconian football fan, who would prefer certain provinces and Indeed provincial teams know and accept their place in the histroical pecking order.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 16/07/2014 12:13:10    1620149

Brolly, if Kerry played in Ulster they would have roughly the same number of All-Irelands. Thr Ulster Champions were seen as a bye for years bar the occasional great Cavan and Down teams. Kerr ,would have struggled up there during the early nineties, and would have struggled with Tyrone in the 00's. Other than that, over the years Kerry would have been roughly as prolific.

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 16/07/2014 12:24:11    1620156

Since the qualifiers came in:

2001 - Kerry did not face Ulster Champions
2002 - Kerry defeated by Ulster Champions Armagh
2003 - Kerry defeated by Ulster Champions Tyrone
2004 - Kerry did not face Ulster Champions
2005 - Kerry did not face Ulster Champions but got put out by Tyrone
2006 - Kerry beat Ulster champions Armagh
2007 - Kerry did not face Ulster Champions
2008 - Kerry did not face Ulster Champions but got put out by Tyrone
2009 - Kerry did not face Ulster Champions
2010 - Kerry did not face Ulster Champions but got put out by Down
2011 - Kerry did not face Ulster Champions
2012 - Kerry defeated by Ulster Champions Donegal
2013 - Kerry did not face Ulster Champions


So in the 13 years since the qualifiers came in Kerry have defeated the Ulster Champions once (Armagh in 2006).

In the same 13 year period they have been beaten by the Ulster Champions 3 times (Armagh 2002, Tyrone 2003, Donegal 2012).

In addition Kerry have been defeated by Ulster teams that were not Ulster Champions 3 times in this 13 year period (Tyrone 2005, 2008 and Down in 2010).

As such we could say that had Kerry been playing in Ulster during this 13 year period that they would have won it in 2006. They would not have won it in 2002, 2003, 2005, 2008, 2010 and 2012. While for 2001, 2004, 2007, 2009, 2011 and 2013 we cannot say as they neither played the Ulster Champions or got put out by a team who did not win the Ulster Championship anyway.

Therefore we can conclude that Kerry would have had a success rate of 1 in 7 in the Ulster Championship in the period since the qualifiers came in.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 16/07/2014 12:31:43    1620162

That's bull treaty.

Brolly (Monaghan) - Posts: 4472 - 16/07/2014 12:34:49    1620165