My da is bigger than your da.

Thats what these threads are like.

Why does it matter, Seriously, Which provence is the strongest ?

At the end of the day, Only one thing has matters in the football championship, And thats who ends the year as All Ireland champions.

for everyone else, failure.

How many Ulster teams where knocked out by Leinster/Munster/Connacht teams etc, Is completely irrelevant.

It simply doesnt matter.

waynoI (Dublin) - Posts: 13650 - 15/07/2014 18:49:47    1619875

GaryMc82
County: Derry
Posts: 1211

1619779
Treaty_Exile
County: Limerick
Posts: 248


It is too easy to look at early rounds of the Qualifiers, and say "Well 5 Ulster teams have been knocked out by non-Ulster opposition".

You yourself are all too aware that your own County Limerick needed 2 x Penalties to beat an Antrim side who are 8th/9th in Ulster's pecking order. A Down side in Div 2 this year exited to a Kildare side plying their trade in Div 1.
And lowly Fermanagh were narrowly knocked out by a Laois side who missed out narrowly on a last ditch promotion attempt to Division 1 and gave Dublin a good game. Cavan already lost the Division 2 final to Roscommon, was It a huge surprise they lost? No, However the score was a big surprise to many I would Imagine.

The only Major shock was Derry losing a Qualifier rd 1 game to Longford. Lets be honest though, had it been any other round of the qualifiers, Longford would likely have got their asses handed to them. Round 1 is the puke round, the hardest for a big team to pick themselves up for after exiting a Provincial they likely had aspirations of winning. While the smaller counties probably had no realistic ambitions of winning their provincial, and get a crack at a wounded big gun. Which team do you think is going to be most pumped up??

If I am wrong in what I say, then how would Laois only beat Fermanagh by a single point? After Laois running Dublin so tight for so long in the previous game!!

Dublin, Donegal and Monaghan are ahead of Kerry, Cork and Mayo this year, however this will be dispelled as myth due to those teams being on the other side of the draw and having a somewhat easy route to the final. In other words next season we will be hearing "Ah sure they said Kerry were finished, yet they still reached an All Ireland final". However what will be Ignored is the fact they had a handy ass route with only really Mayo and Cork to block their way, although In saying that, maybe Armagh could still rattle their cages.

We live in hope.






What does Limerick needing two pens have anything to do with limerick winning? Two certain goals stopped by fouling so penalties given. Lets be honest take provinces out of it and you probably have 5/6 teams at the top and bottom who are where they are and will win or lose most games the rest in between are all capable of beating each other and are all on an even enough level

tipp11 (Tipperary) - Posts: 353 - 15/07/2014 19:12:40    1619891

If All-Irelands are so soft, how come Mayo (in my opinion the third biggest football county in the country) haven't won an All-Ireland since 1951? Connacht is not exactly a hugely difficult province, with Mayo and Galway traditionally dominating.

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 15/07/2014 19:20:28    1619898

For s start Gaa is strongest as a sport in Ulster than any other province, it is the number one sport in Ulster and probably always will. We will always be there or there abouts with one or two teams challenging for an minor/U21 and senior titles not to mention the club scene (anyone hear tell of Cross).
As regards the debate about recent decades, since the introduction of the back door it is without doubt that Ulster teams have benefited most with teams like Fermanagh and Cavan (last year) having a spell competing at the top table. This in my view is an indication of strength. This could not be said of any other province indeed Ulster showed the rest of the country that the range of quality was greatest up north.
I think everyone would agree that at the start of this year we had three teams with realistic chances of making the Q/finals. Does anyone really think that Derry, Down and Tyrone are gone for good, these traditional powerhouses are in transition (or denial it could be argued) so make hay as the saying goes.
The issue I believe in Ulster this year is more to do managers not maximising the resources they have than anything else (Cavan and Derry didn,t progress as they should have, Tyrone and Down stood still). There are four Ulster teams in division 1 two in division 2 next year don,t forget , currently Ulster is as strong as any other province. Football in Ulster will be OK long term can every other province say the same

mhunicean_abu (Monaghan) - Posts: 1044 - 15/07/2014 19:24:19    1619900

The hermit
One thing for sure you would not get it handy like ye have in Munster. No way would you dominate Ulster football because
---first of all you would have to prepare for a tough first round game
--you would not be able to do what Kerry used to do :::: wait and peak around August.
Don't forget Armagh got beat by a few Ulster teams around the time you are talking about. If you want to go back on history ; I'd safely say Kerry lost to Ulster teams more often than to any other provience
Wish Yoy Were Here (in the Ulster championship).

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 15/07/2014 19:27:44    1619903

The GAA might be the strongest sport in ulster, but there is a hell of a lot of soccer played in N Ireland, and in Donegal, so I wouldnt totally agree. Cavan and Monaghan no doubt about it, probably true in Fermanagh, Tyrone and Armagh, but Down, Antrim and Derry as well as donegal have just as many soccer clubs as GAA clubs, even more so in Derry city.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 15/07/2014 20:21:45    1619945

Ok, only 3 Ulster teams left out of 14 remainong in Championship...... but 3 vg teams.
Normally, Ulster has more teams left, come the last 8, than any other province. They could very well end up with 3 this year.
Also, as a rule of thumb (for general overall standards), the NFL is also a decent guideline, but by no means fully accurate. next year Ulster will have 4 teams in D1.

Monaghan Exile (Monaghan) - Posts: 442 - 15/07/2014 20:39:57    1619949

Treaty_Exile
County: Limerick
Posts: 252

1619898
If All-Irelands are so soft, how come Mayo (in my opinion the third biggest football county in the country) haven't won an All-Ireland since 1951? Connacht is not exactly a hugely difficult province, with Mayo and Galway traditionally dominating.

Who said All Ireland's are soft?? All Ireland's are certainly not soft, reaching the pinnacle is no easy feat.

All Ireland winner's tend to be soft the year after they win, which is might explain why Mayo beat Cork 2011, Dublin 2012, Donegal 2013.

You really want to know who the top dogs are? Then simply look at who actually win's the All Ireland titles. That will give a better Indication of the top 2 or 3 teams.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 15/07/2014 20:48:07    1619960

And while I'm at it.... Ulster have won 9 of the last 22 all-Ireland's, with 5 different winners. that's a win rate of over 40%. Given that there are 4 provinces, the average win ratio should obviously be 25% per province.
In that time span, 2 teams each from Leinster( Dublin, Meath), Munster(Kerry, Cork) + 1 from Connacht (Galway) have one Sam..... That's a grand total of 5 teams for the combined 3 other provinces, same amount as Ulster.

Ulster have won more titles in the last 22 years, than they won in a 105 years previous to that. And, YES we don't dispute that prior to this we were no where near as strong.

Monaghan Exile (Monaghan) - Posts: 442 - 15/07/2014 20:54:14    1619968

/b]]I'd be very quiet if I was a kerryman seeing as ye almost get a bye to the quarters every year.. We all know it's a joke. (And worse when ye got straight to a semi back in the day, a good stepping stone to your 10million All Irelands)./b]

Ha ha, 1930 is a long long time ago my friend and do you need a reminding about the scoreline from the infamous 'last battle of the Civil War'? I guess its as good as reason as any to excuse your county never reaching an All Ireland since.

If there is one thing I can't stand is people like yourself (often Ulster posters on sites like this it must be said) who try and degrade our proud history with this nonsense. Our tradition was hard won over the last 110 years. You don't have to like it, but if you were any of you were any sort of sportsmen you would respect it!

We would see how many All Irelands some of these Ulster counties would win if they were in Munster along with us and Cork, somehow I think the record books wouldn't alter much.

I would love for Kerry to be up there for a few years just to rub some peoples noses in it, alas geography is what it is.

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 15/07/2014 21:08:03    1619981

I don't get exactly why Treaty is getting bashed so much for starting this thread. "Ulster is the best province" is commonly used on these threads, and he has basically said that's why he's started this thread. So it's a perfectly reasonable thread, fair enough I haven't seen one saying anything about the other provinces specifically but how often is it mentioned within other threads. He also stated how for a time it was justified but has highlighted how times could be changing, judging by recent championships. I also must say I agree with the Railway cup point to a certain degree, I don't think Ulster have as many talented players as they used to, but then again other provinces like my own Munster also don't quite have the top end players they used to (although I think they've more depth now with Tipp and the likes improving).

If you consider league performances this argument is null and void, but I'm never one to take the league too seriously so for now I'm not going to. So if you consider the 2013 all ireland series, the following sides were knocked out by Ulster opposition: Offaly Westmeath, Wicklow, Sligo, Roscommon, Leitrim, Kildare, Laois, Meath. And the following sides knocked out Ulster opposition: Louth, Galway, Mayo. Now in 2014, the following sides (so far) have been knocked out by Ulster opposition are: Louth, Westmeath, Leitrim. And the following sides knocked out Ulster opposition: Laois, Longford, Limerick, Roscommon, Kildare. Now I didn't list 2012 stats, but they are very similar involving a lot of the same teams, except because of Donegal you can add Cork, Kerry & Mayo to teams beaten. The point I'm trying to make (and taking a long time to do so) is there no real trend as who beats who when it comes to championship. I think you have that top 6/7 of Dublin, Mayo, Kerry, Donegal, Monaghan, Cork, Tyrone that will more often than not beat the rest. More often than not as 2013 showed in abudance Ulster teams knocked each other out an awful lot which doesn't give us any info on who's better than who. So if you look at just 2014 (so far) ya you can try and say Ulster have fallen down in the rankings, but look to 2013 and it says different, and 2012 puts them as one of top 2 provinces. I asked this similar question in a recent thread, something along the lines of "Only 3 Ulster teams in last 14, are times a changing?". It's a fair enough question to ask, but it's just basing it on this year. I think until a trend emerges, we can't really answer that.

JMK (Kerry) - Posts: 273 - 15/07/2014 21:08:48    1619982

I do get the point though that Ulster is not providing one of the top All Ireland worthy teams, especially based on 2013. But 2014 is just speculation at this point, I personally don't think Donegal can regain their 2012 heroics, but I could be very wrong. I love to see Monaghan do well and will be rooting for them to get to a semi, but can they go all the way I very much doubt it. But the same could be said for Kerry and Cork. I really think more so than other years, we have a very tiered all ireland contender list. Dublin top, Mayo in the next layer, and Kerry, Monaghan, Cork and Donegal, the next layer, and then hopefuls like Meath, Galway, Tipp etc. in the "hopefully can cause an upset" layer. So I do agree that Ulster are not providing a top title contending team, but I don't think Munster is either. As Darragh O'Se put in his recent IT column you can't judge Kerry on the Munster final.

So unless this years results continue this year, and into next year, I don't see how we can say Ulster has become a weak province. My personal opinion is that there is less talent up there right now than there was a few years ago, but I've no idea how the underage is looking. It's fine to rave on about Tipp and Roscommon etc. but until they show progressive improvement and make a quarter 2 years in a row, I don't think we can rate them above many of the 2nd tier Ulster counties. (On a side note disappointed that Cavan didn't this year). So sure fair enough point Treaty judging by this year, but last year Mayo knocked out a lot of the 1st tier Ulster sides, and I think it's fair to say Mayo are 2nd best team in country by a way. Otherwise Ulster sides did well against non-Ulster sides and largely knocked themselves out.

On that note @ GaryMc, how are you putting Donegal and Monaghan ahead of Mayo?? I'd also put Kerry on level par (if not ever so slightly ahead) with Donegal and Monaghan right now to be honest, with Cork not very far behind.

JMK (Kerry) - Posts: 273 - 15/07/2014 21:09:07    1619983

Hermit, Kerry had the chance to rub Tyrone's noses in it in 2003, 2005 and 2008 AND many Kerry folk predicted exactly that each time. Let's face it you had an easy bye for decades out of Munster and were fresh and relatively injury free for your All Ireland campaigns.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9703 - 15/07/2014 21:22:12    1619995

As I have maintained for quite some time on here, all provinces and counties have their proud teams, traditions and footballers and should be properly respected. There has been plenty of nonsense said here in the recent past that some provincial titles are inferior to others, and some all-Ireland titles inferior to others because of which province the winners had to come through. The truth is all provincial titles are won by good teams, and all All-Ireland titles won by very good teams. If All-Irelands can be put back-to-back then you are probably looking at a great team.
Regarding this idea of Ulster getting weaker, it is interesting seeing many posters revise their opinion on teams as the year progresses. Last week there was a very clear difference between how Ulster posters predicted the qualifiers going and how posters from the other provinces saw them going, with I think almost every ulster poster predicting Cavan and Down wins. Now after two fairly severe hammerings, many of these same posters are saying these teams were never much good, the opposition are better and the result was no surprise! It is also funny that Armagh should still be in the race for Sam, as most said they would be one of the weakest sides in Ulster this year.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 15/07/2014 21:37:44    1620006

JMK
County: Kerry
Posts: 243

1619982
I don't get exactly why Treaty is getting bashed so much for starting this thread. "Ulster is the best province" is commonly used on these threads, and he has basically said that's why he's started this thread. So it's a perfectly reasonable thread, fair enough I haven't seen one saying anything about the other provinces specifically but how often is it mentioned within other threads. He also stated how for a time it was justified but has highlighted how times could be changing, judging by recent championships

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!

And I wouldn't worry about being bashed for this one. I've raised reasonable points, and challenged a notion that I believe was true for a while, was overblown thereafter and is no longer true. I am not revelling in that, and I have said that it is perfectly plausible for Ulster to rise again. I'm not heralding the death of Ulster football, like others are only delighted to do with Kerry, or Kilkenny hurling at any sign of weakness.Some posters can dish it out, but clearly can't take it!

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 15/07/2014 21:44:08    1620013

Ulsterman
County: Antrim
Posts: 6914

1619995
Hermit, Kerry had the chance to rub Tyrone's noses in it in 2003, 2005 and 2008 AND many Kerry folk predicted exactly that each time. Let's face it you had an easy bye for decades out of Munster and were fresh and relatively injury free for your All Ireland campaigns.

SamOnErrigal
County: Donegal

That also shows how competitive Ulster Armagh TyroneDonegal got beat after winning the AI
I knew I'd smoke one of ye out! That's the exact same point I make regards Kerry. Hats off to Tyrone on raising the bar in 03. Kerry got beat in 05 after winning the AI and in 08 after winning the AI twice.

Ulsterman, I can only reprint my comments to SamOnErrigal above.

2000:
The first place to start on the last decade, if people want to go down this road, is 2000. Kerry won the last All-Ireland prior to the qualifiers. We beat Armagh, who had retained their Ulster title, in extra time of a replay. We then beat Galway in a replay. In some ways it was fitting that the last champion of the old system would win it in near new system style of 4 games in the All-Ireland series.

2004:
Limerick were a rising team and took us to a replay in the Munster final.
We beat Dublin, Derry and Mayo in the All-Ireland series.

2006:
We lost to Cork in a Munster final replay and got through Q4.
We drew the Ulster champions Armagh, the team that won 6 Ulster titles in the last decade, in the quarter-final and beat them. People said at the time Kerry could not beat a northern team but what do you know, we did it there against the Ulster champions.

2007:
We retained out All-Ireland title. Nothing more needs to be said about that. Just to note though, we won all our games. Came through a seriously stiff test against Monaghan in the quarter-finals, beat Dublin in the semi-final and won an all-Munster All-Ireland final.

2009:
We lost to Cork in a Munster semi-final replay.
We negotiated rounds Q2, Q3 and Q4. We drew Dublin in the quarter-finals. I remember going to Croke Park and everyone saying the Kerry supporters will be like a funeral cortege heading back to the Kingdom. Kerry played awesome football that day and deservedly won the game comfortably. We beat Meath then and Cork again in an all Munster All-Ireland final.

People are only letting themselves down when making ridiculous comments on Kerry's All-Irelands. Even in 1997, we beat the Ulster champions in the semi-final. A Mayo team, who beat us in the semi-finals the year before and had lost to Meath in an All-Ireland final replay, were our opponents in the '97 final. We won the final. Hard earned as the 5 to follow in the following decade.

The Galway and Armagh teams that Kerry beat in replays in 2000 went on to win the next two All-Ireland and deservedly so. Tyrone raised the bar in 03. When the first four champions of the last decade read: 00 Kerry, 01 Galway, 02 Armagh and 03 Tyrone, I don't think anyone expected a team to win 4 of the next 6 All-Irelands. Well Kerry did exactly that as outlined above. I repeat my comments to SamOnErrigal:

SamOnErrigal
County: Donegal

That also shows how competitive Ulster Armagh TyroneDonegal got beat after winning the AI
I knew I'd smoke one of ye out! That's the exact same point I make regards Kerry. Hats off to Tyrone on raising the bar in 03. Kerry got beat in 05 after winning the AI and in 08 after winning the AI twice.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 15/07/2014 21:53:40    1620022

I have never understood why some people get so worked up about the perceived standard of football in each provience. This craic of somebody taking credit for a county (from their provience) winning the all ireland is delusional beyond belief. Some from Antrim/Fermanagh taking credit for, say Donegal or Tyrone winning is as stupid as someone from Louth or Longford basking in the glory of another Kilkenny hurling title. I don't give 2 figs about how other counties get on. Once donegal are out I don't care who wins. So sick of seeing these threads all the time lately. Can't we just enjoy the football on show for what it is instead of complaining all the time. It's all about county success, not provincial.
Rant over.

Bain (Donegal) - Posts: 470 - 15/07/2014 21:58:57    1620031

Hermit, Kerry had the chance to rub Tyrone's noses in it in 2003, 2005 and 2008 AND many Kerry folk predicted exactly that each time. Let's face it you had an easy bye for decades out of Munster and were fresh and relatively injury free for your All Ireland campaigns.

We were narrowly beaten by the better team on the days in question, no dishonour in that. On another day things would have been different. Shall we go through Kerry's record against Ulster counties since we first meet Antrim in 1911 game for game?

Its a shame that in 130 years of the Kerry GAA's history, all a fella like you can point to is the odd defeat we suffered to a Northern county. Isn't it noteworthy you need the record of every county in a nine county province to try and justify your Kerry bashing.

For whatever reason some people up North just can't seem to warm to us or respect our fine footballing tradition. I won't lose any sleep over that though

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 15/07/2014 21:59:33    1620033

I think up in the North we have a siege mentality due to some unusual reporting through the media. During the successful years in the 00's Ulster teams were said to have invented 'puke football' now anyone with an ounce of sense will know that the teams of the day played to their strengths and more importantly built on what went before but the ungracious nature of some of the reporting has left folks in Ulster in an entrenched position (see Armagh and Monaghan media bans this year).

Ulster teams are not the only teams to ever play cynically yet it does seem to get highlighted more, and again causes a collective siege mentality. Does this mean that after a period of relative success ulster is the strongest province, absolutely not. To my mind the all Ireland is an inter county competition won by one county and if posters wanted to debate the relative strengths and weaknesses of the provinces maybe they should have bothered turning up to railway cup games rather than letting it die on its backside.

Its ok showing solidarity with some provincial neighbours, but trying to bask in the reflected glow of their successes does not make your county any more successful.

duckula20 (Antrim) - Posts: 175 - 16/07/2014 08:27:35    1620040

Here here duckula20. Well said. Fair play!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 16/07/2014 08:43:08    1620046