Leave it off Sam,

If your still reaching into the history books to bring out the fact we never beat Down, then you are grasping at straws. Like Tyrone, Kerry just came up against a side they very rarely meet, who happened to be the superior team in the year in question (bar 2010 of course, because to me that was a fluke result). If we played Down as regularly as the likes of Dublin the record would be very very different.

Face facts, the Ulster championship has been over hyped for years by the media and in on-line forums like this. To use its 'competitiveness' as an excuse as to why Ulster teams havn't been more successful in the All Ireland is delusional. If anything the regularity of games the province gives is a huge advantage to teams coming out of it.

Look at us, 9 weeks waiting for our first championship match, 2 games in 3 weeks then another 4 week wait for our next game, hugely disruptive to a team trying to gain momentum coming out of a provincial campaign.

You can convince yourself all you want about how southern teams couldn't hack it up North, I say Kerry would dominate up there. Armagh won 7 titles between 1999 and 2008. In that period there record against Kerry was 1 W (by a point), 1 D, 2 Loses. just something to bear in mind

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 15/07/2014 16:27:26    1619746

Kerry and Cork both have cornered the market in munster. It is a nothing competition. Connaught is more competitive.

In the past decade, every single ulster county have made the ulster finals. Actually, in the past 6 years this is the case. Tyrone and Armagh did dominate, but since then, both ourselves and Monaghan have won the title. You have got to win at least 2 games to make the finals, and 3 if you come from the back door.

In Connaught, a team can make the final having only played 1 game. This has allowed lesser counties get to the final, so it is a false reflection on the level of competition in the province. Sligo and Roscommon are both counties that have benefited from this in recent years.

The remaining province is Leinster. Kildare, Meath, Louth and Wexford have all made it to the final in the past 6 years, which is not bad considering the number of counties in the province, and the fact that you have to play at least 2 games to make the finals, so you cant fake getting to it.

In summary, Connaught and Munster are joke competitions, which serve Kerry and Cork as useful training for later in the year. Connaught is the same, although there is a narrowing of the field in standard between Roscommon and Galway, although Galway are still off the boil. Sligo, Leitrim, London and New York are really only making up the numbers here.

the point I am trying to make, is that despite armagh and tyrone dominating ulstrer in the past decade, many teams got to the finals, with down taking tyrone to a replay in 2003, donegal losing by 3 points in 2002 and 2006 respectively v armagh, armagh needing a replay to beat fermanagh in 2008. Tyrone narrowly beat monaghan in 2007. It is a fierce competition, and is well worth paying into. There will be no runaway winners on a given year, when you audit the entire field.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 15/07/2014 16:36:22    1619751

When I saw the title of this thread I clicked on just so as I could leave a big YAAAAWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.

However straight away I saw the disclaimer that it was not another Ulster bashing thread to go with the many that run concurrently at any given time on this website - well at least it is not that sort of thread then (seriously sarcastic tone).

But then as I began to read (could not help myself) I started to get amused.

You see this argument goes on and on and then on some with the same auld muck thrown out but then you stumble across something priceless:

'i firmly believe if the railway cup was taken seriously, and you picked the GENUINELY best players from each province, that Ulster would be fourth of the four.'

Now is that not just Comedy Gold - if the Railway Cup was taken seriously Ulster, rather than being the most successful team would be last - I am sure there is logic in there somewhere if I just stopped laughing to look - if your Granny had balls and all that - great stuff.

Anyway cannot leave without my two pences worth on the subject - Ulster weaker at the mo - it appears so - weaker than the other provinces as a whole - doubt it - best team in Ireland resides in Ulster - doubt it.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 15/07/2014 16:45:24    1619768

Lets face it - a bi of Ulster bashing
The ulster SFC is the most competitive of any of the provinces in either code - attendences will justify that at all levels - minor, U-21, Club, schools etc
Yes, Ulster isn't as stronger at senior level at the moment - but of the 9 counties they have all appeared and won at All-Ireland level in recent yrs at some level, whether its schools, club, minor etc
Even Fermanagh won an All-Ireland Inter club title.....now Limerick/Waterford /Clare - what have they won!!!
Munster is weak... it great to see Tipp doing well... and i would love to see them progress, but if we take the NFL as an indicator over the last few yrs, Monaghan/Donegal/Down/Derry/Tyrone/Armagh have all played Div 1

And the season its over...I expect big things from Donegal minors, Cavan juniors and wait Monaghan/Armagh/Donegal could still have a run....

cuchulainn35 (Armagh) - Posts: 1676 - 15/07/2014 16:54:37    1619774

I'd be very quiet if I was a kerryman seeing as ye almost get a bye to the quarters every year.. We all know it's a joke. (And worse when ye got straight to a semi back in the day, a good stepping stone to your 10million All Irelands).

Brolly (Monaghan) - Posts: 4472 - 15/07/2014 16:56:40    1619776

The first place to start on the last decade, if people want to go down this road, is 2000. Kerry won the last All-Ireland prior to the qualifiers. We beat Armagh, who had retained their Ulster title, in extra time of a replay. We then beat Galway in a replay. In some ways it was fitting that the last champion of the old system would win it in near new system style of 4 games in the All-Ireland series.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 15/07/2014 16:56:49    1619777

Treaty_Exile
County: Limerick
Posts: 248


It is too easy to look at early rounds of the Qualifiers, and say "Well 5 Ulster teams have been knocked out by non-Ulster opposition".

You yourself are all too aware that your own County Limerick needed 2 x Penalties to beat an Antrim side who are 8th/9th in Ulster's pecking order. A Down side in Div 2 this year exited to a Kildare side plying their trade in Div 1.
And lowly Fermanagh were narrowly knocked out by a Laois side who missed out narrowly on a last ditch promotion attempt to Division 1 and gave Dublin a good game. Cavan already lost the Division 2 final to Roscommon, was It a huge surprise they lost? No, However the score was a big surprise to many I would Imagine.

The only Major shock was Derry losing a Qualifier rd 1 game to Longford. Lets be honest though, had it been any other round of the qualifiers, Longford would likely have got their asses handed to them. Round 1 is the puke round, the hardest for a big team to pick themselves up for after exiting a Provincial they likely had aspirations of winning. While the smaller counties probably had no realistic ambitions of winning their provincial, and get a crack at a wounded big gun. Which team do you think is going to be most pumped up??

If I am wrong in what I say, then how would Laois only beat Fermanagh by a single point? After Laois running Dublin so tight for so long in the previous game!!

Dublin, Donegal and Monaghan are ahead of Kerry, Cork and Mayo this year, however this will be dispelled as myth due to those teams being on the other side of the draw and having a somewhat easy route to the final. In other words next season we will be hearing "Ah sure they said Kerry were finished, yet they still reached an All Ireland final". However what will be Ignored is the fact they had a handy ass route with only really Mayo and Cork to block their way, although In saying that, maybe Armagh could still rattle their cages.

We live in hope.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 15/07/2014 16:58:23    1619779

Anyway cannot leave without my two pences worth on the subject - Ulster weaker at the mo - it appears so - weaker than the other provinces as a whole - doubt it - best team in Ireland resides in Ulster - doubt it.

I agree with that summary. As regards the weakest province in Ireland, I would still plump for Munster, but I don't think any of the four are great shakes at the moment. Dublin by far the best, then Kerry and Mayo, then Donegal and Monaghan. Bit of a drop betweent that and the rest.

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 15/07/2014 17:00:25    1619780

Naysayer
County: Antrim
Posts: 709

1619768 When I saw the title of this thread I clicked on just so as I could leave a big YAAAAWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.

However straight away I saw the disclaimer that it was not another Ulster bashing thread to go with the many that run concurrently at any given time on this website - well at least it is not that sort of thread then (seriously sarcastic tone).

Haha yeah at this stage it's like hoganstands version of "I'm not being smart, but" or "I'm not a racist, but"

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12120 - 15/07/2014 17:02:08    1619782

cuchulainn35
County: Armagh
Posts: 1024

And the season its over...I expect big things from Donegal minors, Cavan juniors and wait Monaghan/Armagh/Donegal could still have a run....

Claiming the Cavan juniors as an Ulster success is a bit much.

They're the pride of Leinster Junior Football!

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13710 - 15/07/2014 17:14:43    1619797

Overall I think Ulster is in an excellent position, like none of us realistically expect 3 or 4 teams from Ulster to make a serious tilt at the All Ireland any year.

Donegal and Monaghan are clearly in a good place right now, and Armagh, Tyrone, Derry and Down are not far of the pace.

Cavan, Antrim and Fermanagh are some way behind the rest at present.

Sometimes a team just needs a rub of the green to win a game, and that sparks something that Ignites a proper flame. Look at Armagh, beat Cavan and almost beat Monaghan, beat Tyrone and are now a team with belief. Who is to say they won't make the AI Quarter final?

Roscommon are a very tight outfit, and will no doubt push Armagh tight, but who knows!!

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 15/07/2014 17:17:35    1619799

Dublin, Donegal and Monaghan are ahead of Kerry, Cork and Mayo this year
Mayo beat Donegal by 16 points last year.

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 15/07/2014 17:18:06    1619800

Kerry and Cork both have cornered the market in munster. It is a nothing competition. Connaught is more competitive.

In the past decade, every single ulster county have made the ulster finals. Actually, in the past 6 years this is the case. Tyrone and Armagh did dominate, but since then, both ourselves and Monaghan have won the title. You have got to win at least 2 games to make the finals, and 3 if you come from the back door.

In Connaught, a team can make the final having only played 1 game. This has allowed lesser counties get to the final, so it is a false reflection on the level of competition in the province. Sligo and Roscommon are both counties that have benefited from this in recent years.

The remaining province is Leinster. Kildare, Meath, Louth and Wexford have all made it to the final in the past 6 years, which is not bad considering the number of counties in the province, and the fact that you have to play at least 2 games to make the finals, so you cant fake getting to it.

In summary, Connaught and Munster are joke competitions, which serve Kerry and Cork as useful training for later in the year. Connaught is the same, although there is a narrowing of the field in standard between Roscommon and Galway, although Galway are still off the boil. Sligo, Leitrim, London and New York are really only making up the numbers here.

the point I am trying to make, is that despite armagh and tyrone dominating ulstrer in the past decade, many teams got to the finals, with down taking tyrone to a replay in 2003, donegal losing by 3 points in 2002 and 2006 respectively v armagh, armagh needing a replay to beat fermanagh in 2008. Tyrone narrowly beat monaghan in 2007. It is a fierce competition, and is well worth paying into. There will be no runaway winners on a given year, when you audit the entire field.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 15/07/2014 17:24:02    1619804

legendzxix
County: Kerry
Posts: 3348

1619777
The first place to start on the last decade, if people want to go down this road, is 2000. Kerry won the last All-Ireland prior to the qualifiers. We beat Armagh, who had retained their Ulster title, in extra time of a replay. We then beat Galway in a replay. In some ways it was fitting that the last champion of the old system would win it in near new system style of 4 games in the All-Ireland series.

I remember that year, and that team. They were worthy all ireland winners for sure. It still doesnt mean that the provincial competitions are a joke outside leinster and munster

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 15/07/2014 17:29:31    1619807

Both Galway and Armagh deservedly won All-Ireland's in the following 2 years.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 15/07/2014 17:40:42    1619815

Treaty_Exile
County: Limerick
Posts: 251

1619800
Dublin, Donegal and Monaghan are ahead of Kerry, Cork and Mayo this year
Mayo beat Donegal by 16 points last year.

Yes but Donegal beat Mayo by 4 points when it really mattered, In an All Ireland final 2012.

In 2012 we seen two hungry even teams enter Croke Park with an All Ireland at stake, and Donegal won by 4 points.

Last year seen a Mayo team hell bent on revenge beat a Injury stricken, hungover Donegal team. Big tickle, Mayo failed when it really mattered, just like they did against Dublin last season.

It is a common fact that All Ireland champions are vunerable the year after winning the title.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 15/07/2014 17:43:54    1619823

An Ulster team will not be winning Sam this year or for quite some time I think. In fact it is hard to see who will emerge as AI contenders from the province, Monaghan I think will win it, but I can't see them beating Kerry or Dublin, a semi-final will be the closest they'll come. Last year you only had Tyrone in the last 4, after scraping past Meath and Roscommon. Tyrone are way off the pace compared to what they were. If you look at who's doing well underage in the province, my own county have lorded it for years now and its just not working out at senior level so far.

Donegal may have one last hurrah in them, but if Jimmy Mc leaves after this year its hard to see them being the side they were. Derry, perennial underachievers.

Ned_Stormcrow (Cavan) - Posts: 1071 - 15/07/2014 17:44:37    1619824

Its just this conscience searching that goes on around this time each year. Not as it's All Ireland time but marching season and a bit of guilt creeps in about thon treaty and abandoning what was always the most Irish part of Ireland and seeing how we were treated since the inception of the state- though the guilt is quickly replaced with a bit of bashing to try and make the sell out justifiable. We have moved on up here though not forgotten the shameful deed.

Allegedly.. ;-)

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 15/07/2014 18:02:55    1619849

Ulster is still the most competitive province. Mayo have been so far ahead in Connaught, Dublin and Leinster- ah come on. When was the last time either Kerry or Cork didnt win in Muster ?? Donegal, Monaghan, Tyrone and Derry compete in D1 next year. Derry had a freak result against Longford. No disrespect to Longford but if they played 20 times, Derry would win 17-18 times. Tyrone will be back shortly. Cavan will also come soon. Monaghan and ourselves are still strong so stop this nonsense. Take the Dubs and their superior population of it , Ulster matches still receive the biggest gates by far ? How many attended Mayo/ Galway ?

TheRightStuff (Donegal) - Posts: 1688 - 15/07/2014 18:16:20    1619857

The championship is all the better when the local championships are competitive. In my time Leinster has provided Offaly, Dublin, Meath as great All-Ireland winners with strong competition from the likes of Kildare and Laois. It must be better when the All-Ireland Champions Meath in 2000 are knocked out at the first time of asking by Offaly rather than some of the walkovers Dublin are facing at present. Ulster may not provide the All-Ireland winners this year but most of the games were close and the atmosphere at the grounds was excellent as packed county grounds hosted hard to call games. Again its great to see All-Ireland Champions fall at the first hurdle a fate that befell Tyrone 2006, Armagh 2003, Down 1995 and Derry,1994. Munster is Cork and Kerry and it is not the fault of the teams but they can prepare differently for a championship campaign.

Byanthon (Tyrone) - Posts: 1780 - 15/07/2014 18:30:52    1619870