I want to begin my saying THIS IS NOT AN ULSTER BASHING THREAD. I can think of one poster, no prizes for guessing, who will immediately say it is, and will ignore that disclaimer anyway.

For much of the nineties, it could not be argued that any province was stronger than Ulster. It was not just just that the winner, or near-winner came from Ulster, but their was a spread of Ulster counties winning it. From 2000 to 2010, Munster won the most All-Irelands, but it would take a fool to suggest it was the strongest province based on the fact that just two counties won it, and Cork only contributed one of those. You had Down (twice), Derry and Donegal winning All-Irelands, Tyrone were very unlucky not to win in 1995 and Armagh also had a good side. No argument.

It was still the strongest in the 2000's, in my opinion, but its strength was overblown. Ulster had one great side (Tyrone) and one very good team (Armagh). Donegal , Monaghan and Derry weren't bad, but far from world beaters. This is shown by the fact that from 1999 to 2010, only Tyrone and Armagh won the title. Hardly as strong as it was made out to be.

Ulster still seems to be placed on a pedestal. I cannot understand why. Tyrone have been pretty average since 2009 and their underage success actually does not seem to have translated into the senior superiority that I expected (and yes, it should be there by now). The two best teams in Ulster are in the final, two good sides. But I cannot understand why some people are saying we're on the way to some kind of Donegal resurgence. They looked very average in the league final against Monaghan, and they have beaten one average team (yes, Derry ARE average), and one poor enough team (Antrim). Some are saying they are the team to beat Dublin. They aren't. People are pointing to a game from 2011, ignoring the fact that Donegal actually lost (you'd swear listening to Brolly that they won) and that Dublin are FAR better now than they were then. Fermanagh, Antrim, Down, Derry, Tyrone and Cavan have all gone by the wayside, Armagh are far from great, Donegal are good but overrated, which leaves Monaghan. I like Monaghan, I think they are a good team, and I think they will win the Ulster final again, and they are Ulster's best bet for success. But I still think they are some way short of the top bracket of teams (particularly Dublin).

Is Ulster a competitive province? Yes, probably the most competitive. Is it high on quality? No, it is not, and while the other provinces have at least one very strong team, Ulster are lacking that right now. It's time to be realistic. Can Ulster regain it's position at the top? Of course it can. But it's far from brilliant right now.

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 15/07/2014 13:50:32    1619618

i firmly believe if the railway cup was taken seriously, and you picked the GENUINELY best players from each province, that Ulster would be fourth of the four.
The most competitive province, absolutely
But the strongest quality wise....not even close.

Liamwalkinstown (Dublin) - Posts: 8166 - 15/07/2014 14:36:31    1619655

i firmly believe if the railway cup was taken seriously, and you picked the GENUINELY best players from each province, that Ulster would be fourth of the four.
The most competitive province, absolutely
But the strongest quality wise....not even close.

Come off it that's not even remotely close to being true. A combined Monaghan/Donegal with one or two Armagh lads (Jamie Clarke) would be a serious outfit.

The standard has fallen a bit in Ulster, but not dramatically so. It is nothing to worry about, Ulster traditionally has teams that produces good sides on a cycle. Right now Monaghan and Donegal are at the top, in a few years it could be Tyrone and Derry, after that it could be Armagh and Down. IMO that is what it makes it more interesting, the only predictable thing in Ulster is that success doesn't last and another team will rise.

Other provinces have their powerhouses in Kerry, Cork, Mayo, Galway, Dublin, Meath. These teams always seem to be at the top.

JP91 (Armagh) - Posts: 316 - 15/07/2014 14:50:37    1619664

I've been arguing this for a long time, especially when responding to the idiotic arguments thrown out about how easy Kerry have it when they win All Ireland's. Ulster is competitive because they have the most teams at the same level. If Kerry or Dublin were stuck up there they would dominate the province just as they currently dominate their own.

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 15/07/2014 14:58:16    1619670

Who are the GENUINELY best players from each province then Liam?

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12133 - 15/07/2014 15:04:44    1619676

An embarrassing thread TBH. Tipp and Clare win a few matches (fair play to them) and it comes to threads being set up about Ulsters demise. It doesn't matter what is said or written , the southern people and media will always make the northern teams (people) feel inferior . The disrespect shown down the years to Donegal , Tyrone and Armagh has been grotesque. Well done Treaty Exile on your intellectual research !

TheRightStuff (Donegal) - Posts: 1688 - 15/07/2014 15:07:09    1619678

Liamwalkinstown
County: Dublin

i firmly believe if the railway cup was taken seriously, and you picked the GENUINELY best players from each province, that Ulster would be fourth of the four.

Jaysus i dunno bout that team off the top of my head

Beggen

Lacey
McGee
McKaigue

Mone
Mckernan
Harte

Gallagher
Darren Hughes

Mackey
Cavanagh
Lynch

Clarke
Murphy
McManus

Probably forgetting a handful more

shea (Kerry) - Posts: 409 - 15/07/2014 15:19:10    1619691

No way is ulster stronger at the moment. Reasons why this may be?

1 law of averages, provinces will come around and drop back over time
2 Ulster is more competitive, therefore attrition will take care of counties, as well as being knocked out of ulster, which is the end of the world for all ulster counties when this happens, not as badly taken in other provinces.

3 Other provinces have had their standards raised by policy of developing the game at under age level. Tipp and Rosscommon come to mind.

4 there are only 3 major teams in the competition in recent years, with the exception of donegal in 2012, you cant look beyond Dublin, Mayo and Kerry every single year for consistency. So also rans would transcend the provincial competitions. Mayo are not a reflection of the strength of connaught football, they are a reflection of the strength of Mayo. Kerry likewise, and of course the Dubs dont look at other leinster counties to gain inspiration or perspective on where they are at.

5 Ulster is genuinely in decline, the blanket defense has sickened players and they dont look forward to playing the system year in year out, therefore they go flat eventually.

6 Ulster players are simply not as good as they were when tyrone and armagh were doing the business 10 years ago.


I am open to any argument for or against. I really think it is basically down to the players at the moment. There is not the same talent around.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 15/07/2014 15:24:06    1619695

You might have posted this a bit soon.
I do not know where to start but if you can read JIM McG in today's Irish News you might get an insight to where Donegal were last year. He named all the players who carried injuries last year and says all are now free of injuries. So he wants us to go back to ----The way we were (2012).
Now talking about each provience or the other three having one strong team ---- I think you are wide off the mark
Go back on the Hogan stand a few weeks ago(around 3weeks ago) and was people not saying that Kerry had the less talented team since 1992 and we know where they were in 1992. Even Kerry people doubted the team. So you must take it that just because the beat a very poor performing Cork team that Kerry are a top team again.
As regards Mayo they have plenty of questions to answer , a clever more cynical team would have ran them close (could have beaten them) last Sunday.
We can't argue about Dublin in Leinster ,, way ahead.
So you must think Donegal are gone. Well it just two short years ago that this same Donegal team beat all these top teams you are on about (except Dublinwho were lucky to escape us ) Ha Ha
But seriously I don't rate Kerry yet, fair enough they have a good passage to navigate and will probably get to the Semi or even the All Ireland. final.
I don't think Kerry will beat either Donegal /Monaghan if they meet I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE UNDERESTIMATING BOTH ULSTER COUNTIES. Time will tell and as regards Sundays game either can win but I'm do fancy my own county But even whoever looses they are still a team who can shake up this All Irl.
As regards the railway cup I remember Ulster with a team with the forward line of the following P Doherty,S o'neill PT Treacy, C Gallagher Jimmy Whang S o' Connell, J mcCarten Jody o'Neill plus in the last 30 years any Ulster team comprised of great players as good as the rest of Ireland and better. A lot of people might have a different view of Ulster before September is out

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 15/07/2014 15:24:46    1619696

Terrible thread - we've had numerous similar over the last few years it's ridiculous really. If Donegal win the AI then there'll b egg on your face.

Liam - that's an opinion, not a fact. While your entitled to yours, so am I. Ulster would be top of the four in my opinion and I think your summation is very weak but not surprising.

Brolly (Monaghan) - Posts: 4472 - 15/07/2014 15:40:54    1619703

An Ulster-bashing thread this most certainly is. You see, no matter what is said about Ulster counties whether it is good or bad, the teams southside still have this obsession of wanting to test themselves against the Ulster counties. I think it is absolutely absurd to suggest that on the basis of quality that Ulster would be ranked fourth out of the provinces. Don't get me wrong, there are some woeful counties in Ulster including my own, but look at the templates and benchmarks that have been set by the likes of Donegal and Tyrone of yesteryear and even Monaghan more recently not to mention the competitiveness of all nine Ulster counties. I would say the contribution from counties in Ulster as a whole cannot be undermined and it is something that deserves to be appreciated, not be sceptical about.

doublechamps (Fermanagh) - Posts: 147 - 15/07/2014 15:44:24    1619709

Armagh won 6 and Tyrone 4 of the Ulster titles in the last decade. Other provinces get labelled as easy for such dominance. Ulster's status has changed in my eyes so there's absolutely no need for any re-evaluation. What's happened really is that the northern lads have been making comments which many have let go unchallenged. Of late more people seem to be scrutinising these comments and how they hold up.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7910 - 15/07/2014 15:59:33    1619721

Armagh won 6 and Tyrone 4 of the Ulster titles in the last decade. Other provinces get labelled as easy for such dominance. Ulster's status has changed in my eyes so there's absolutely no need for any re-evaluation. What's happened really is that the northern lads have been making comments which many have let go unchallenged. Of late more people seem to be scrutinising these comments and how they hold up.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7910 - 15/07/2014 15:59:33    1619722

The hermit
What a silly response. Do you not remember 2002/2003 /2005/2008/2010(down)/2012 Would Kerry have win Ulster on those occasions if they had been in the Ulster championship. ??? Well the results tell us:::NO Dublin were well beaten by both Tyrone/Armagh in the OO's
Kerry have never beaten Down in the championship ( correct me if I'm wrong. )
As regards the Railway cup what about 2002/2003 for example :::Forward line S McDonald Ronan Clarke P Canavan B Mc Guigan O mcConville plus Donegal had a very good full forward Adrian Sweeney What about Benny Coulter or Paddy Bradley. Name me better forwards from the other provinces. OH I forgot :::STEPHEN O' NEILL I'm convinced at that time Ulsters team were the best around Fair enough we had the Gooch. But I don't think the other provinces had forwards like Iv just named.
Going back to Kerry Dublin playing in the Ulster championship all they would do is make it just a little bit,,just a little bit more COMPETITIVE.

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 15/07/2014 16:02:53    1619724

I know everyone loves taking the league for granted and yes its not top of the priority list but just taking a quick look at the League divisions setup shows that Ulster is still the most competitive Province. You might beat an ulster team once but they generally come back fighting.

I feel sorry for Derry. Yes they got beat badly but they aren't a bad team and I honestly think 9/10 times they would beat Longford. I honestly thought they could beat us in the 1st round. You also look at the teams left from Connaught or Munster and tell me that Tyrone wouldn't beat them 9/10 times. Its championship and things happen. Shocks happen and easy draws happen.

I was at the Limerick/Sligo match and the standard was a joke. I think every Ulster team would fancy beating both. but yet you have Sligo still in and tyrone out. Sometimes thems the breaks.

The great thing about championship football is that shocks happen and there is no real comeback when they do. Some teams can regroup quickly and make a push through qualifiers. Other teams (and I just use these as examples as I know of both) like Leitrim and Cavan get knocked out of province and then have a exodus of players. These teams know there is no All Ireland for them so prefer to enjoy their summer elsewhere.

Overall Province is Province and only 1 team wins Sam. Ulster is definitely the hardest to win and the best to watch IMO. Id much rather a tight hardy match than watch Dublin hammer some team. People are correct in saying that Mayo/Dublin/Cork or Kerry would win a lot of titles in Ulster but Mayo wouldn't win 4 in a row neither would the Dubs (what are they even on now). I feel awful for Munster as I do actually believe the others aren't bad but the step up to Cork and Kerry is impossible especially with the seeding now (although for some reason they seem to be the ones behind that)

dstuction (Donegal) - Posts: 1209 - 15/07/2014 16:11:28    1619731

Some Ulster posters tend to overly big up Ulster teams and the Ulster Championship as well as belittling other provincial championships.

However that doesn't excuse a ridiculous thread such as this.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13723 - 15/07/2014 16:13:18    1619733

Armagh won 6 and Tyrone 4 of the Ulster titles in the last decade. Other provinces get labelled as easy for such dominance. Ulster's status has changed in my eyes so there's absolutely no need for any re-evaluation. What's happened really is that the northern lads have been making comments which many have let go unchallenged. Of late more people seem to be scrutinising these comments and how they hold up.

Yes Armagh won 6 and Tyrone won 4. That does not tell the whole story. In the same decade Armagh were beaten by Monaghan, Fermanagh, Derry, Donegal as well as of course Tyrone.

Tyrone were beaten by Derry, Donegal and Down.

It just happened when one of Armagh or Tyrone lost the other county went on to win. How many times did Cork/Kerry lose to Clare, Limerick, Tipp or Waterford last decade?

JP91 (Armagh) - Posts: 316 - 15/07/2014 16:16:50    1619736

TheRightStuff
County: Donegal
Posts: 371

1619678
An embarrassing thread TBH. Tipp and Clare win a few matches (fair play to them) and it comes to threads being set up about Ulsters demise. It doesn't matter what is said or written , the southern people and media will always make the northern teams (people) feel inferior . The disrespect shown down the years to Donegal , Tyrone and Armagh has been grotesque. Well done Treaty Exile on your intellectual research !

I'm not embarrassed, but I think that's a petty response on your behalf.

Why do you think Tipperary and Clare winning a few matches has anything to do with a thread like this being set up? Munster has traditionally been woeful. I know this as well as anybody, Limerick man here! And why would I want to make the Ulster teams, or people, feel inferior? I don't. I also never said Ulster was the weakest province, I just think it's come back into the field, and it's the only province right now that I don't think has a truly top tier team. That's pretty hard to argue against.

I'm talking about a quality versus competitiveness argument here. Ulster is competitive, more than any other province, but I feel people are still using the argument that Kerry for instance have it so easy in Munster, and Dublin in Leinster. Bar the nineties, where Ulster was a terrific province with widespread quality, I don't believe it has been as superior as some have made it out to be, and it CERTAINLY isn't now.

It's easy to fall back and accuse me of being bigoted against Ulster. I enjoyed the Tyrone team of the 00's, who have a huge case to be the best team of that decade and are one of the best teams I've seen. I also thought Armagh were terrific, and I was a big fan of the Down team of the 90's. I always want to see Down do well because I've a soft spot for them since then.

I'm speaking my mind. Can Ulster reclaim it's position at the top? Of course it can, and it probably will in a few years time. If it's okay to say the other provinces lack quality, what's wrong with me saying Ulster lack quality? Can you give it, but not take it?

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 15/07/2014 16:24:12    1619741

Legendzxix
Fair enough Tyrone /Armagh dominated Ulster for 12years or so and you should know how good they were as Kerry had a few right battles with them at the time neither Kerry or Dublin could handle Tyrone and to a lesser extent Armagh. So it would be hard to expect at the time lesser counties like Derry/Donegal etc to beat either Tyrone/Armagh when the top counties down South found it almost impossible to beat them.
I for one haven't or won't be making any predictions except this one:::Donegal /Monaghan are as good and possibly better teams than Kerry/Mayo and have as good of chance as any to defeat Dublin if the occasion arises
Donegal /Mayo have came from the same place, both suffered embarrassing defeats in 2010( Armagh,Longford)but since then Mayo have win 4 in a row which is fantastic but Sam still eludes them. Donegal on the other hand have win 2Ulster( could be 3after Sunday) plus Sam which is also a fantastic achievement.
But I'm going to live or die by my assement od Donegal /Monaghan. I think they are well equipped to play any team outside Ulster and most teams could find it hard to play against them. Will be very interesting to hear people's opinions after the Ulster Final

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 15/07/2014 16:25:54    1619743

SamOnErrigal
County: Donegal

That also shows how competitive Ulster Armagh TyroneDonegal got beat after winning the AI
I knew I'd smoke one of ye out! That's the exact same point I make regards Kerry. Hats off to Tyrone on raising the bar in 03. Kerry got beat in 05 after winning the AI and in 08 after winning the AI twice.

As I said yesterday Sam.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7910 - 15/07/2014 16:26:15    1619744