26/05/2014 21:30:07
Ulsterman
County: Antrim
Posts: 6873

1593906
Hurling doesn't get one tenth of the scrutiny football gets and when something is rarely highlighted the estbalished counties and commentators circle the wagons and give the same standard Mick the Bull answer from Savage Eye "Aaah now, 'tis a maaaaanns game and deees boys are not dirrrrrttty at all, dey all work de land and God bless them all".

How about something on the topic raised , or must you always go off in a self pitying bile infested tangent ? Question was raised re diving on the increase , do you have an opinion or are you just happy to slag traditionalists as you put it ,
For my part it is creeping in and a huge part is an inability with refs to keep pace with game , but the black card screwing up football as some would say so hey why not screw up the small ball while were at it .

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 27/05/2014 10:33:05    1594001

A bugbear of mine is players charging straight at an opponent (while having hurley and ball carrying arm raised) and getting a free, usually when the defending player has to raise his hurley to protect himself.
Some Kilkenny players are masters at this, both backs and forwards.

The main issue is referees not being able to keep up with the play. Time for two referees if you ask me.
They have that in American football to spot infringements and Aussie Rules too (correct me if I'm wrong)

valley84 (Westmeath) - Posts: 1890 - 27/05/2014 10:34:56    1594002

Cadogan did dive on Sunday, no doubt about it, the strange decision was not to bring Nash up the field as it was near the end of the first half where Cork were holding on in a game where they did little hurling at that point. Big Brian got suckered in, not an easy task for a referee in all fairness.

In a contact sport, being 'touched' doesn't necessarily mean you've been fouled and just because a player hits the deck doesn't mean a free needs to be given, as pointed out Cahalanes shoulder was on the money and was penalised for it. So will he be discouraged by mentors, stats men from shouldering again, probably, but then what's a defender to do now that overcarrying is almost epidemic at this point? We'll see defenders more and more resort to the pulling and dragging prevalent in football as proper tackling has now become too much of a risk as referees are not enforcing the existing rules correctly.

Enforce the 4 step rule, cut out the throws now deemed as a handpass, allow proper shouldering and tackling in itself will revert back to the artform it used to be.

bricktop (Down) - Posts: 2503 - 27/05/2014 11:11:40    1594019

Valley the problem with 2 referees is we already have enough whinging about a lack of consistency between referees, can you imagine how much worse it would be to give managers the opportunity to compare decisions made by 2 referees on the one field! It works in American football because the referees all gather together and have a good chat about things before making a final decision, and for all their faults the Aussies tend to just take referees decisions on the chin and get on with the game. GAA people used to be like the Aussies in this regard but now managers seem to take their lead from people like Mourinho, with every failing of their team easily explained by the performance of the referee.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 27/05/2014 11:13:16    1594022

Its the amount of throwing the ball that annoys me more! Hard for any ref to spot as well!

witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 27/05/2014 11:50:33    1594055

Damothedub
County: Dublin
Posts: 1815

1593996 27/05/2014 10:08:03
batterburger
County: Cork
Posts: 96

1593982
bennybunny
County: Cork
Posts: 2298

1593750 Spot on pinkie. Totally agree. Hurling is everybit as cynical as football. Howver, we are only supposed to criticise football. Hurling needs the black card as much as football does in my opinion.


Thank God as I thought I was the only one who was of this opinion in Cork. Had a debate about this in the local recently and I was of the opinion that the black card is needed in hurling. The 'other side' were of the opinion that they were two different games and hurling doesn't need a black card as pulling and dragging does not happen.

In that case what is there to fear so?

Whats is there to fear oh let me think , how about a ref who cant tell a yellow from a black , a caution from a yellow , a black and a yellow equal no sending off ,refs currently making a pigs ear of one code and now you want it in hurling !
Fact they are two different codes speed of ball moving making it very difficult to officiate hurling , the rules in place are sufficient theres just not enough ref,s capable of keeping up with speed of play to apply the rules , time the number of ref,s lines mans role are looked into , but a black card get it sorted in one code before you double the problem by screwing up a second .


I had this argument back in January therefore none of what you wrote above was relevant at that time.

Its not the black card that there is a problem with. Its the referees who are applying the rules wrongly. Be it in hurling or football, if the rules were applied correctly then it would work a treat.

I don't give a hoot about them being two different codes: if you drag a man down in football your game is over, if you do it in hurling it's not. That cannot be right.

batterburger (Cork) - Posts: 161 - 27/05/2014 12:08:39    1594070

if you drag a man down in football your game is over, if you do it in hurling it's not. That cannot be right.

That's like saying 'if you spear tackle in soccer your game is over, if you do it in rugby it's not. That cannot be right'. TWO DIFFERENT SPORTS. The solution to cynical play in football is not automatically the solution to cynical play in hurling.

RebelCork (Cork) - Posts: 789 - 27/05/2014 12:17:17    1594081

stall the digger there lads.arent hurling people "men of honour" and wouldnt ever partake in such an action?

for me,Cadogan is a blatant diver in my opinion and whilst we might not have national attention on here,it is a very good platform to start highlighting such actions.if nothing else,it might shame a player into not doing it again.given how different rte are in their criticism of players than sky,i would hope that they will highlight just how much this is on the increase.

agree with the above though,the "black arts" of throwing hurls,throwing the ball,overcarrying,diving and pretending your hurl is being held all need to be whittled out of our game.

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 27/05/2014 12:17:58    1594083

RebelCork
County: Cork
Posts: 679

1594081 if you drag a man down in football your game is over, if you do it in hurling it's not. That cannot be right.

That's like saying 'if you spear tackle in soccer your game is over, if you do it in rugby it's not. That cannot be right'. TWO DIFFERENT SPORTS. The solution to cynical play in football is not automatically the solution to cynical play in hurling.


Ok so what is the solution to cynical play in hurling then?

batterburger (Cork) - Posts: 161 - 27/05/2014 12:29:15    1594090

Two referees would be a start. Gavin could not keep up with the play on Sunday. Consistency is the main one, why wasn't the Waterford player sent off for throwing his hurley? The punishments are already in place, they're just not being enforced well enough. Two referees would go a long way to improving standards. Cynical play isn't as rampant in hurling as football, that's a given, so we can't use the football solution (which hasn't even been proven as a success yet, far from it actually) for a hurling problem.

RebelCork (Cork) - Posts: 789 - 27/05/2014 12:43:28    1594095

Agreed Perfect 10

Just one point (and not just to you but other people that mentioned Kilkenny as well). We are trying to drive out the cyncial play out of the game, not Alan Cadogan and Kilkenny. There are plenty of people acting cynically out there. They do it because it is rewarded the way games are officiated now.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 27/05/2014 12:46:44    1594099

RebelCork
County: Cork
Posts: 680

1594095 Two referees would be a start. Gavin could not keep up with the play on Sunday. Consistency is the main one, why wasn't the Waterford player sent off for throwing his hurley? The punishments are already in place, they're just not being enforced well enough. Two referees would go a long way to improving standards. Cynical play isn't as rampant in hurling as football, that's a given, so we can't use the football solution (which hasn't even been proven as a success yet, far from it actually) for a hurling problem.


You didn't answer my question. If Hoggie was straight through on goals and some fellow jumped on his back and pulled him to the ground to prevent him from scoring, what do you suggest should be the penalty for the perpetrator?

batterburger (Cork) - Posts: 161 - 27/05/2014 12:53:35    1594107

A 21m free and a card (colour depending on the type of tackle). Obviously if Davy gets his way and makes 21m frees unscorable then it will have to change but there's a penalty for hauling someone down when they're through on goal in hurling (for the time being), there is not in football which is why such harsh punishment isn't needed for hurling.

RebelCork (Cork) - Posts: 789 - 27/05/2014 13:07:17    1594112

You didn't answer my question. If Hoggie was straight through on goals and some fellow jumped on his back and pulled him to the ground to prevent him from scoring, what do you suggest should be the penalty for the perpetrator?

Stand under a high ball with Timmy Crowley pulling down on him would soften his cough and be punishment enough!


I suppose the current rule book would be a penalty and yellow card for the perpetrator, hardly enough of a punishment to prevent them from not doing it.

Cynicism on hurling is there, lets not kid ourselves, Shane O'Neill lashing Richie Power last year, Noel Hickey attempting to fell the Limerick fullforward after he'd pulled his hamstring an an AI final just being two examples, but a free from 80 yards out in hurling is scoreable so thers less value doing it out the field than football, but a player baring down on goal can expect no mercy from defenders or rulebook.

How many people sat watching Gleesons goal on Sunday and asked how the Cork defence let him get that far?

bricktop (Down) - Posts: 2503 - 27/05/2014 13:22:16    1594128

RebelCork
County: Cork
Posts: 681

1594081 if you drag a man down in football your game is over, if you do it in hurling it's not. That cannot be right.

That's like saying 'if you spear tackle in soccer your game is over, if you do it in rugby it's not. That cannot be right'. TWO DIFFERENT SPORTS. The solution to cynical play in football is not automatically the solution to cynical play in hurling.

It's not right because your game is over in both sports?

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12122 - 27/05/2014 13:51:42    1594146

RebelCork
County: Cork
Posts: 681

1594112 A 21m free and a card (colour depending on the type of tackle). Obviously if Davy gets his way and makes 21m frees unscorable then it will have to change but there's a penalty for hauling someone down when they're through on goal in hurling (for the time being), there is not in football which is why such harsh punishment isn't needed for hurling.


The penalty being on the offender being what? A yellow card? You reckon thats punishment enough?

Yellow and red cards were introduced for football and hurling at the same time without as much as a murmur. And thats despite the fact that they are different codes. IMO Hurling people think that cynicism doesn't happen in their sport. It happens, even if its only once, it happens.

batterburger (Cork) - Posts: 161 - 27/05/2014 14:41:34    1594193

It's not right because your game is over in both sports?

Well my ruggerish is a bit rusty, but as far as I know what some ruggers would call a 'spear tackle' can be legal in rugby. I'm no expert though, so don't take my word for it.

RebelCork (Cork) - Posts: 789 - 27/05/2014 14:46:44    1594198

I don't give a hoot about them being two different codes: if you drag a man down in football your game is over, if you do it in hurling it's not. That cannot be right.

If you drag a man down in table tennis is your game over ? If you drag a man down in Rugby oh no hold on that cant be right ? The one sport divided by two minds thats the GAA .

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 27/05/2014 14:46:45    1594199

No, as I said the penalty is a 21m free which has a fair chance of being scored (unlike football) plus a card. Is that not enough? They can't even use the black card properly in football ffs, how are they going to do it in hurling?

RebelCork (Cork) - Posts: 789 - 27/05/2014 14:52:55    1594205

IMO the black card or lack of it is a chance for people to have a go at others they dont like , its a vehicle , they feel theres an opportunity and there not going to let it go , there are some very anti hurling people on here , there are many who see the hurling fraternity as some sort of Etonian All boys club and they never miss a chance to get a dig in .
Hilarious really that you can have two threads running side by side one called " abolish the black card " the other on hurling and those making a case for the introduction of the black to the hurling code , so Oirish is laughable .

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 27/05/2014 14:57:52    1594208