omahant
County: USA
Posts: 350


I'd go for a 12-12-8 format. In Div 1, I'd have mid-ranked teams (seeds 4 to 9) play the other six (lessens risk of one-sided matches).

So are you saying that some teams in the same "league" won't play each other??? If you are that is the one of the worst ideas i have ever heard.

chriscart580 (Meath) - Posts: 376 - 16/04/2014 11:57:28    1575899

dickie10, top of and third post on page 1: interesting idea, but I wouldn't use Division 2 final as the name of a final between the winners of Div 3 and 4. If you were to have such a thing though, perhaps adding semi-finals might be better, with the top 3 in Div 3 and the winner of Div 4 involved, and maybe something equivalent for Divs 1 and 2. But I agree that 4 semi-finalists in an 8-team division isn't the best.

It's an interesting idea to make the finals more meaningful by seeing only the winner get promoted. However i'd prefer to see two teams go up, or at least to have one team go up and the other team to play off against the second-bottom in the upper division. Teams who undergo sudden improvement and become as good as the top teams go the country should be allowed to go up the divisions as quickly as possible, I think.

Tir Conaill Abu, page 1: I think that's rotten too, so I figure that IF it came to only the league final winner being promoted, then a team with a 100% record (or reasonably close to one) would automatically win the division with no final needed. If you've already beaten everyone then surely you've alreadey proved yourselves champions of your division.

RoyalBadger, page 1: Totally agree about the hurling structure mirroring the football one and Offaly "taking their medicine". Not that I have anything against Offaly, mind.

GaryMc82, page 1: I wouldn't increase the top two divisions and then shrink the bottom two, a move that would make it harder to get out of the bottom and easier to stay at the top. But you could have three divisions, each split into an A and B of equal standing (not like the joke hurling method, they should just call them Divisions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6), and then have a final or semi-finals or whatever, and 2 or 3 teams to go up and down.

OffalyBigBall, you're right about the history of the league, at least in the 80s: the top 4 from Div 1, the top two from Div 2 and the winners of Div 3 and 4 went into the quarter-finals. In other years they tinkered with it and had Divs 1A, 1B, 2A and 2B, and the number from each to go into the quarter-finals were 3, 3, 1 and 1 respectively. Another year you had Divisions 1, 2, 3A and 3B; the winners of those last 2 played a Div 3 final and also qualified for the overall league quarter-finals. All this knowledge came to me from www.gaainfo.com whose subscription lapsed and is now a load of sponsored search links.

Some of you are saying leave the football league alone. That is also a very good idea as it seems to work very well as it is.

And finally, http://www.laoisgaa.utvinternet.ie/nflfinal2002.htm shows us that Laois won the football league from Division 3 in 1986. The dearly departed gaainfo.com also provided lots of details; thankfully I had remembered seeing this before and it was just a matter of looking for the little I already knew (Laois, 80s; Wikipedia gave me the year) and hoping that Google returned at least one page to confirm it.

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1032 - 17/04/2014 14:51:04    1576361

To Chriscart -Over much of the last 40 years, the NFL and NHL have had Div 1 split into an A and B, effectively playing only group opponents, or less than half of all teams.
If it works in the real world why can't I have a '6 in A v 6 in B' ? Also, why aren't 3 divs enough ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2598 - 21/04/2014 18:06:04    1578130

I think people who give out about the inclusion of league semi finals/finals and saying that the team who tops the league is the automatic winner are just watching too much soccer. Soccer is the one of the few major sports where the final league table is the be all and end all of the championship. Even then some soccer leagues (Major League Soccer for example) have playoffs to determine the winner.

The Pro12, English Premiership, Super Rugby and Top14 in rugby all have a regular season followed by knockout stages. The AFL down under is the same. NBA, NFL, NHL and NBL in the states and Canada-all have leagues followed by playoffs.

Too many people must be watching the Premier League and reckon that that's the only way a league can be run, so the GAA can only be wrong.

CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1646 - 21/04/2014 18:45:12    1578149

It depends on the context. Soccer has cup competitions. Rugby has no cup, so having play-offs leads to a blue riband event of a final. Football and hurling have championships obviously. For that reason, my preference would be for regular season only of 7 games more spread out. Leave all the knock-out stuff for the championship.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 21/04/2014 20:20:33    1578194

First off I don't like the semi finals for group of 7. Its nonsense. Also the league finals in lower divisions are not to bothered about as promotion is always the goal.

foreverroyal (Meath) - Posts: 349 - 21/04/2014 21:42:08    1578241

CastleBravo
County: Meath
Posts: 525

1578149
I think people who give out about the inclusion of league semi finals/finals and saying that the team who tops the league is the automatic winner are just watching too much soccer. Soccer is the one of the few major sports where the final league table is the be all and end all of the championship. Even then some soccer leagues (Major League Soccer for example) have playoffs to determine the winner.


Just to clarify, I rarely watch soccer, poor sport!

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8592 - 21/04/2014 22:00:42    1578260

Not a fan of soccer either. But these lower division finals are a joke. Last year there was more passion in O'Byrne cup than at that final. I'm so glad we didn't take it seriously.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 22/04/2014 08:32:44    1578262

Tacaí Liatroma
County: Leitrim
Posts: 125

1576361

GaryMc82, page 1: I wouldn't increase the top two divisions and then shrink the bottom two, a move that would make it harder to get out of the bottom and easier to stay at the top. But you could have three divisions, each split into an A and B of equal standing (not like the joke hurling method, they should just call them Divisions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6), and then have a final or semi-finals or whatever, and 2 or 3 teams to go up and down.


My Idea of Division 1 and 2 having 10 teams in each, was based on the current strength of team's.

The top 2 or 3 sides in Division 2 ( Donegal, Monaghan, Meath/Down can normally mix it with the 8 in Division 1.


Likewise the top 3 or 4 teams from Division 3 ( Cavan, Roscommon, Fermanagh/Sligo/Wexford ) can mix it with the lower Division 2 teams of Laois, Armagh, .

In lower Division 3 and Division 4 there is a huge drop off, which is why think splitting this combined group into 2 x smaller divisions might help avoid seeing smaller sides getting hammered big time.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 22/04/2014 10:00:19    1578281

I think the League badly needs to be re-structured. Primarily for the good of the championship (which is the main competition). At the moment all of the top teams play in Division 1 bar 2 or 3 who are at the top of Division 2. Case and point being Donegal were relegated last year and have come straight back up from Division 2.

Some might argue that Monaghan have come through from Division 3 however they were a Division 1 team not so long ago so it's not as big a success story as it seems. Either way the point is that the championship is going to suffer now because the stronger teams are so much better hardened and prepared and know what it takes (because of their League battles) to win in the championship.
E.g. this year (bar Ulster) and the Munster final everyone in the country can probably predict the eventual winners of Leinster and Connacht. No disrespect to the rest but the only Connacht game probably of worth will be a semi-final clash between Mayo and Roscommon in Dr. Hyde Park. The Leinster championship is a farce and already decided in my mind. Munster is also decided up to the final which will be Cork and Kerry. Also everyone reading here could probably pick 6 out of 8 of the ¼ finalists. Essentially all other games in the championship are dead rubbers and probably only a day out for hard core fans.

But the GAA could offer lesser counties some hope. They could (and should) re-structure the League entirely and allow teams who are currently Div4 play against current top Div1 teams in the League and get a taste early on for what it is like to play a top dog. True there would be some unmerciful beatings however I think it's better to get beaten badly in March than hammered out the gate in June. Plus it's only one game. There's always another League game the following week to focus upon and take people's minds off the previous loss.

The argument is that after this taste they would be better prepared for what it takes if they are to come up against something similar later on in the year. This would make for a better championship and offer lesser counties hope that even when up against it they have some chance to compete at the top level.
E.g. structure League based on seeding and open draw from previous years championship
Div1: All Ireland champs: ¼ finalist, Round 4 winners, Round 3 winners, 2 * Round 1 & 2 losers
Div2: All Ireland runner up: ¼ finalist: Round 4 winners, Round 3 winners, 2 * Round 1 & 2 losers
Div3: Semi-final loser: ¼ finalist: Round 4 winners, Round 3 winners, 2 * Round 1 & 2 losers
Div4: Semi-final loser: ¼ finalist : Round 4 winners, Round 3 winners, 2 * Round 1 & 2 losers

Then top 4 from each division qualify to play in semis against respective top 4 from other divisions. Final and trophy for winners. In essence all 4 League trophies could go to Div1 but highly unlikely. And even the lesser teams would still have something to play for in League as all you have to do is get into top 4 to make the semis. Plus they get a taste of top football by playing against the likes of Kerry, Dublin, Mayo Tyrone, Cork, Donegal etc. Ideally then they will be better prepared for when the championship comes along.

MaigheoAbu (Mayo) - Posts: 343 - 22/04/2014 11:41:12    1578348

I would only suggest 2 minor changes.

1: Introduce semi finals to division 2 and make it so that only the winners of the semi finals get promoted. These semi's would have real bite to them.

2: Do the same for division 3 and 4. The weaker counties badly need an extra game or two and these would bring them on more than being straight up promoted and having a meaningless final.

Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 22/04/2014 13:32:17    1578442

MaigheoAbu
County: Mayo
Posts: 166

1578348
I think the League badly needs to be re-structured. Primarily for the good of the championship (which is the main competition). At the moment all of the top teams play in Division 1 bar 2 or 3 who are at the top of Division 2.

I strongly agree on this. Your Idea is Interesting with the league being based on how teams finished in the Championship the year before. However I would Imagine managers would be arguing in favour of the elite playing in Division 1 as that would benefit the top sides more for Championship.

I am very open to the National getting a major shake up.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 22/04/2014 13:39:29    1578446

GaryMc82
County: Derry
Posts: 1034

However I would Imagine managers would be arguing in favour of the elite playing in Division 1 as that would benefit the top sides more for Championship.


I'm glad you support what I think. And I agree it's true managers would argue for the status quo be maintained. In doing so they help the big football counties get stronger and the championship would suffer even more in the future. You're from Derry so you have presumably seen the level that Div1 football is currently at right now. I would describe it as essentially championship in bad weather.

The GAA should look at this years championship draw. Wicklow or Laois have to play the Dubs in Croke Park. Who is going to bother going to this game? Everyone already knows the result. The question is by how much and the answer is probably at least over 10 points. Dublin have huge competition for places on that team so they will have no let up on the pitch. There are similar fixtures in Munster - Kerry v Clare/Waterford and Cork v Tipperary/Limerick.

Bottom line is that the the powers that be in GAA want people to attend the matches. But no one is going to rush out the door to see a foregone conclusion and their county being hammered. The opposite is just going to happen and championship crowds and the game itself will continue to decline.

MaigheoAbu (Mayo) - Posts: 343 - 22/04/2014 14:50:48    1578496

Championship crowds are on the up though despite the recession...

ANyway what do you suggest we do to get the likes of Wicklow and Laois closer to Dublin's standard?

Obvious solution for me, split the Dubs in two and set up proper structures in the other counties from primary, secondary schools to expanding the game in the big towns. Huge population areas in Wicklow have next to no GAA clubs.

Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 22/04/2014 16:42:26    1578609

I think the league works well. If I was being fussy I would take away the semi finals in division 1 but other than that it works well.

I understand the teams want to play against better opposition to prepare for championship but if you lump div 4 teams up against Dublin it wont do anyone any good. Teams should work harder to get promoted in order to play better teams the next year. None of this testing new players rubbish, leave that for the micky mouse cups and challenge games early and throughout the year. Take the league seriously and it will become even better to watch.

white.n.blue (Monaghan) - Posts: 249 - 22/04/2014 17:05:08    1578630

The best teams should be in Division 1. Proposing Division one teams to play division 4 teams would lead to unmerciful beatings and there is nothing good about that despite what some posters argue.

realman2 (Kildare) - Posts: 464 - 22/04/2014 17:31:11    1578654

Tp Gary Mc82 -
I aggree with your comments regarding upper halves of Divs 1 and 2 being strong enough to compete in a level higher - hence, my 12-12-8.
In addition, I keep 1-2-3 apart from 10-11-12 to reduce the risk of hammerings - these six grouped together in A and playing
4 to 9 from B. In lieu of the top 2 from each group making the semis, I thought it more interesting to allow the top 4 from all 12. League finalists emerging from
4 of 12 in Div 2 and 2 of 8 in Div 3 promoted.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2598 - 22/04/2014 18:11:42    1578686

Tp Gary Mc82 -
I aggree with your comments regarding upper halves of Divs 1 and 2 being strong enough to compete in a level higher - hence, my 12-12-8.
In addition, I keep 1-2-3 apart from 10-11-12 to reduce the risk of hammerings - these six grouped together in A and playing
4 to 9 from B. In lieu of the top 2 from each group making the semis, I thought it more interesting to allow the top 4 from all 12. League finalists emerging from
4 of 12 in Div 2 and 2 of 8 in Div 3 promoted.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2598 - 22/04/2014 18:12:35    1578687

GaryMc82
County: Derry
Posts: 1034


I would like to see Kilkenny return, and I think the bigger football counties should make more of an effort to help the smaller football counties gain traction.

Why? Why make semi-serious teams like Leitrim, Antrim or even London waste time and money travelling down to Freshford to hammer a team that nobody cares about as a curtain raiser to a local Junior hurling League match. Killkenny should have wound up their football set up years ago and let any fella's serious about the game go play in Carlow or something.

We bemoan the state of KK football while at the same time doing jack all to support hurling in football counties where there are genuine efforts being made to improve the state of the game. Kilkenny don't care, leave them be.

roundball (Tipperary) - Posts: 2514 - 22/04/2014 18:28:57    1578694

apologies, I haven't read all the comments on this thread, however I will address the original poster.

How on earth can anyone that is sane think that it is Ok for div 2/3/4 teams to compete for a league title. only in the GAA would such nonsense be contemplated. Can people not get their tiny little brains around the fact that a league is not some sort of knockout championship where a few games are played and then you have some sort of stupid semi-finals and final where everyone gets a chance to win.
Hello ! we already have a championship. The league is where teams of comparable ability play against each other, where if you finish in top 2 you get promoted, if you finish in the bottom 2 you get relegated. And in y opinion, if you finish Top you win. No "final" or semi-finals needed.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 23/04/2014 11:34:31    1578912