Naysayer

Casement investment was never a good idea in my opinion and it should have been located in mid-Ulster but the same rules seem to apply in Northern Ireland as they do down here, the funding always goes to the biggest populated areas!! Its just politics!!

By the same logic do you think Croke should be replaced by a Stadium in Athlone?

Croke Park was the premier stadium in Ireland for the GAA when it started the redevelopment in 1993. Casement isn't even close to the best stadium in Ulster so why was it given the funding when there were other options - Politics. The only reason that Casement is getting this money is because its located in NI. If the GAA had full control on this spend then they would pump it into Clones to enhance the stadium there. If the were to upgrade a stadium in Ulster that would be the sensible thing to do from a GAA perspective as they have invested so much already in Clones. The fact remains that for the money to be spent on Casement a completely new stadium could have been built on a green field site in mid-ulster. Politics is what has it in Belfast!!

Tir Conaill Abu (Donegal) - Posts: 1671 - 01/04/2014 13:27:58    1568484

Tir Conaill Abu - would the GAA (if they had full control of this money) also pump a lot of money in to the infrastructure around Clones so that traffic can get to and away without the delays which are all part of the Clones experience? If you go down this route you can add millions to the cost.

People are giving out about this being a political decision but forget that if it wasn't political then we wouldn't even be discussing the merits of Belfast versus Clones versus somewhere west of the Bann as there would be no money and no new stadium. But maybe that would keep some of the doom and gloom merchants happy for another while. Embrace life, embrace the change and look forward to what should be an excellent stadium.

Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats
Too noble to neglect
Deceived me into thinking
I had something to protect
Good and bad, I define these terms
Quite clear, no doubt, somehow
Ah, but I was so much older then
I'm younger than that now.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 01/04/2014 14:17:44    1568522

Tir Conaill Abu the money appears to be there for the work whether it be in Belfast or elsewhere but taking your points on board and lets talk hypothetically and say there was funding for a GAA stadium in the South and Croke Park did not exist, instead Parnell Park was the stadium in Dublin - would you then be of the opinion that the new stadium for hosting all the big games etc should be built in the like of Athlone?

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 01/04/2014 14:22:07    1568525

Every sporting organisation have a home, Croke Park is the GAA's so that where they developed. If it was the case that there was no Croke Park and we had a delapidated stadium in Dublin as our Home, if huge investment was put forward for a new home of GAA in the Island or Ireland then I would say it should be located in a location that is central, can be accessed from main arterial routes, has adequate parking facilities and would not prejudice the local environment.

There is pro's and con's for site selection. Casement has some merits in that its location close to the M1 is great for access but the con's are there is inadequate parking, there seems to be a problem with the treatment of the community in proximity to Casement in regards to this development and there is no real adjoining facilities to supplement atmosphere etc. There are problems with a Green field site in mid-ulster too as there would be no adjoining facilities also so I don't think there is a perfect site but Casement doesn't seem to offer enough pro's for me to consider it the right choice.

This is all irrelevent anyway folks. I've had many years dealing with project planning and the costs involved and I'd imagine the money already spent on this development are in the millions with that money used out of the budget and there can only be one direction for the project and thats a push through. There is no doubt that the stadium will be excellent and the players will have a fantastic facility top showcase their talents, its just a pity that more consultation wasn't carried out with the GAA counties most affected by this development and the locals adjacent to Casement.

Tir Conaill Abu (Donegal) - Posts: 1671 - 01/04/2014 15:56:15    1568619

What are the proposed parking arrangements for the new Casement ?. I hope it's not what I heard talked about at a club meeting, after the Ulster Council road show around Ulster last year.

drumlinbelt (Monaghan) - Posts: 179 - 01/04/2014 18:28:46    1568765

Parking is the one thing that would be badly lacking at Casement as is the case at probably the majority of GAA grounds including Croke Park.

I suppose if you went for a greenfield site in the countryside you could construct huge car parks around it - this is a feature of many modern European Stadiums particularly in Germany as well as American Football Stadiums. However car parks and a good road network around a green field site do not come cheap. In addition to parking you would also have to commit huge sums to public transport infrastructure on a green field site as there are still many people who use alternative means to get to games.

I have friends who have an annual pilgrimage to Thurles for the Munster Hurling final which involves public transport as well as accommodation in the town for the weekend - for folk wanting to do this Belfast is much better served. I also know many people who prefer to take the train when going to Croke.

In addition to bus and train routes leading to Belfast you have the black taxi route to Casement, Balmoral rail station is not a bad dander for those who are able, buses go past the ground while the Belfast Rapid Transit System is in the pipeline with one of the first routes being Andersonstown.

I still park reasonably close to the ground and have not found getting clear a massive issue even when there has been 30,000 in attendance due to the proximity to the motorway so all in for the money I cannot see a better option than Belfast.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 02/04/2014 08:26:56    1568984

I lived in Belfast myself Naysayer and agree there is a decent public transport service. The problem will be that people not familiar with the system will just travel by car as close to the ground as possible as this is whats done with almost all grounds.

Speaking from a Donegal point of view, we have a fairly crap public transport and are not serviced by rail. There is only a few buses per day travelling to Belfast so you wouldn't get 500 supporters to Belfast by public transport. We will be relying on private buses and cars. If you have 15,000 Donegal fans arriving at Casement by private transport and even half that coming from another county that is a hell of a lot of buses and cars that need to find parking in the proximity of the ground.

Tir Conaill Abu (Donegal) - Posts: 1671 - 02/04/2014 09:33:26    1569008

Tir Conaill Abu
County: Donegal
Posts: 789

1568619
Every sporting organisation have a home, Croke Park is the GAA's so that where they developed. If it was the case that there was no Croke Park and we had a delapidated stadium in Dublin as our Home, if huge investment was put forward for a new home of GAA in the Island or Ireland then I would say it should be located in a location that is central, can be accessed from main arterial routes, has adequate parking facilities and would not prejudice the local environment.


I agree with what your saying. The GAA is predominantly a national sport, rather than an International sport like Rugby or Soccer. When you look at GAA abroad, It mainly appeals to Irish people working and living abroad. When you look at clubs in New york and London, there are many players from home that don those jerseys. So I agree that if Croker in Dublin was not already established as the home of GAA, a new home could easily be built in Athlone which is only an hour out the motorway from Dublin and Galway. Why? because logistically it would make sense.

But you can see in the Casement park argument, that it is purely parochial in terms of who supports the Idea and who doesn't. We have a strong Antrim/Down contingent always backing it to the hilt, while more of lukewarm reaction from the other Ulster counties. A Provincial stadium should be for all the people of the province, and it's location should be considered along these lines with all the travelling provincial people in mind.

If an unbiased and logical Architect looked at the Island of Ireland with the view to building a new road network, taking into consideration all the major towns and cities as they stand ( And money was available to do it ). We would have a very different road network here in Ireland.
Sadly any elected Government never really plan beyond the next general election, and such a planning process would require a plan looking 20-40 years ahead. Something that we as a nation of people simply cannot do, and our list of grounds used by county teams reflects this in many ways.

I'm in favour of Casement park getting a facelift and having facilities dramatically Improved, but I would still prefer a Provincial Stadium to take into consideration all the people of the 9 counties. I for example live in Derry City, so I wouldn't be too badly off in terms of travelling to Belfast. However It is clear that travel wasn't taken into consideration by those supplying or accepting the cash.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 02/04/2014 09:43:06    1569015

Naysayer
County: Antrim
Posts: 177

1568984
Parking is the one thing that would be badly lacking at Casement as is the case at probably the majority of GAA grounds including Croke Park.

I suppose if you went for a greenfield site in the countryside you could construct huge car parks around it - this is a feature of many modern European Stadiums particularly in Germany as well as American Football Stadiums. However car parks and a good road network around a green field site do not come cheap. In addition to parking you would also have to commit huge sums to public transport infrastructure on a green field site as there are still many people who use alternative means to get to games.


With the A5 dual carriageway on the way ( Yes it will go ahead, once certain farmers get more cash per acre....Ohoops I meant once an proper environmental study is completed. ), Omagh would be Ideal for such a green field site. South of Omagh if needs be.

It would located along the main Letterkenny/Derry - Monaghan/Castleblaney/Dublin corridor, and would be linked at Ballygawley to the Belfast-Armagh/Dungannon motorway.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 02/04/2014 09:51:00    1569021

As with all infrastructure and road networks they always lead to the capital which is why if you look at the network map of Ireland the main arterial routes connect the main towns and cities with Dublin and it is similar in the North with Belfast. Capital cities don't tend to be planned so therefore it would be down to luck if you did manage to get one which was slap bang in the middle of a country but the reality is they form over centuries so unless you get the DeLorean out of the shed you are not going to know at the point of declaring it a capital what lies ahead. In an ideal world my place of work would have chosen the big field down the road from the house to locate when coming in to put down roots but alas they didn't and I face a daily commute to Belfast.

Good luck finding that logical architect GaryMc.. ;-)

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 02/04/2014 10:10:13    1569032

Offside_Rule
County: Antrim
Posts: 1190

1569032
As with all infrastructure and road networks they always lead to the capital which is why if you look at the network map of Ireland the main arterial routes connect the main towns and cities with Dublin and it is similar in the North with Belfast. Capital cities don't tend to be planned so therefore it would be down to luck if you did manage to get one which was slap bang in the middle of a country but the reality is they form over centuries so unless you get the DeLorean out of the shed you are not going to know at the point of declaring it a capital what lies ahead. In an ideal world my place of work would have chosen the big field down the road from the house to locate when coming in to put down roots but alas they didn't and I face a daily commute to Belfast.

Good luck finding that logical architect GaryMc.. ;-)

I think most architects are logical and think plans out, however it is their commissioner that normally gives specific requests and adds restrictions to what the architect can do. So when it comes to roads, It is governments that commission such plans and thus are the ones who fail to be logical.

The English essentially decided to base both Dublin and Belfast on the east coast, possibly due to shorter travel across the Irish sea and maintain strong links with mainland britain. So those places were strategically planned by the English, and with a specific goal in mind. That goal was to help them rule Ireland.

Things change, strategic needs change of a country change. With it the importance of certain towns or cities change.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 02/04/2014 18:02:29    1569503

I think most architects are logical and think plans out, however it is their commissioner that normally gives specific requests and adds restrictions to what the architect can do. So when it comes to roads, It is governments that commission such plans and thus are the ones who fail to be logical.

The English essentially decided to base both Dublin and Belfast on the east coast, possibly due to shorter travel across the Irish sea and maintain strong links with mainland britain. So those places were strategically planned by the English, and with a specific goal in mind. That goal was to help them rule Ireland.

Things change, strategic needs change of a country change. With it the importance of certain towns or cities change.

I would have said it was actually very logical to place major cities on the coast, at rivers and on the side of a country closest to other countries. In fact if you look at Europe the major cities in the countries on its periphery are all located closer to the centre of Europe e.g. Oslo, Stockholm, Helsinki, Istanbul and Moscow.

But sure if all else fails blame the English:)

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 03/04/2014 08:24:18    1569734

Im hearing whispers of further stadia development in the north in the offing, possibly county grounds

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 04/04/2014 12:35:40    1570310

GaryMc82
County: Derry
Posts: 1000

The English essentially decided to base both Dublin and Belfast on the east coast, possibly due to shorter travel across the Irish sea and maintain strong links with mainland britain.

I've heard it all now ! What did the Romans ever do for us !! I live in Baile Atha Claith, which comes from the old english for . . .

Burnsey (Down) - Posts: 561 - 04/04/2014 13:07:33    1570331

I think I've seen it all when someone on a GAA forum uses the phrase "mainland Britain". Mainland Britain as opposed to what - offshore Britain which is what exactly?

Anyway, both Dublin and Belfast pre-dated the arrival of our "friends" across the water. Belfast being quite close to Scotland wouldn't have been any use to England prior to the union of the crowns etc. etc.etc. And I think the Vikings has a small role to play in the development of the east coast of Ireland.

rcarragh (Dublin) - Posts: 305 - 04/04/2014 13:26:15    1570343

rcarragh
County: Dublin
Posts: 60

1570343
I think I've seen it all when someone on a GAA forum uses the phrase "mainland Britain". Mainland Britain as opposed to what - offshore Britain which is what exactly?

Anyway, both Dublin and Belfast pre-dated the arrival of our "friends" across the water. Belfast being quite close to Scotland wouldn't have been any use to England prior to the union of the crowns etc. etc.etc. And I think the Vikings has a small role to play in the development of the east coast of Ireland.

Clearly you didn't see or hear it all yet,

Mainland Britain, as opposed to the larger British empire of that era. Just to be clear, I'm talking about a period when there was no Northern Ireland/Republic of Ireland divide. Ireland was considered part of the British Empire, and the administrative capital ( Dublin ) was likely chosen for strategic reasons ( Back-up could be sent swiftly across the channel during an uprising, which happened from time to time ).

While yes Dublin did exist long before the English arrived, It was the English who Initially made The Pale the administrative capital of Ireland, which as stated above was likely for strategic purposes.

While there was noted Gaelic settlements in the region near Belfast (O'Neill's had castles nearby, and ancient forts can still be seen ), Belfast actually only became a significant town in the 17th century, and few of it's Inhabitants were actually Irish/Gaelic. It is actually difficult to know how much of Belfast actually existed prior to the arrival of the English. I say this as Chichester located his main castle in Carrickfergus, and put a much smaller Castle near the shore in present day Belfast City.
It was not until the 18th century that Belfast actually expanded dramatically.

Anyway....So after all that, I stand over my original point.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 04/04/2014 14:22:52    1570371

Now there is a thought - should have built the new stadium in Carrickfergus!

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 04/04/2014 14:32:01    1570377

Burnsey
County: Down
Posts: 446

1570331
GaryMc82
County: Derry
Posts: 1000

The English essentially decided to base both Dublin and Belfast on the east coast, possibly due to shorter travel across the Irish sea and maintain strong links with mainland britain.

I've heard it all now ! What did the Romans ever do for us !! I live in Baile Atha Claith, which comes from the old english for . . .


I meant in terms of Dublin and Belfast being selected as administrative Capital cities by Britain, I do know that Dublin existed long before the English ever arrived, and some settlement likely existed before the Vikings ever arrived around the 9th century.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 04/04/2014 14:37:54    1570383

Naysayer
County: Antrim
Posts: 188

1569734

I would have said it was actually very logical to place major cities on the coast, at rivers and on the side of a country closest to other countries. In fact if you look at Europe the major cities in the countries on its periphery are all located closer to the centre of Europe e.g. Oslo, Stockholm, Helsinki, Istanbul and Moscow.

But sure if all else fails blame the English:)

Well even most Irish Cities are located on the coast, with the exception of maybe Armagh and Kilkenny.

For the record, I don't think I would make Athlone the Capital of Ireland just because it is central. However it would be an excellent Travel hub of Ireland, had our road networks been planned out properly.

If I currently wish to drive to Waterford, Cork, Killarney, Limerick, It is quicker for me to drive to Dublin and then out the specific motorway than to drive direct across country to those locations. Thats a balls, as I have found myself on a friday at 5.30pm sitting on the N7 going nowhere.

If we had Athlone originally planned as a travel hub, then naturally we could have located a National Gaelic Stadium there.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 04/04/2014 14:51:43    1570389

Ffs Gary forget about it and get on with your life, the decision has been made.

No amount of you monopolising discussions about the redevelopment of Casement is going to change anything not to mention the tangent you are going off on re building cities in coastal areas.

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 04/04/2014 15:27:04    1570425