Currently kids in Dublin under the go games rules following is course taken , kids 8 to 12 play for fun no scores recorded , no trophies , 13 to 14 learn how to compete . 15 onwards championships established - play to win .
What is now known that cavemen didn't understand was the following , player retention begins when they are young , pressure to win the u10 blahblah means nothing . As for the parents now theres real pressure agree totally with YewTree and Realdub .
Was a div 10 junior semi final umpire last year , now don't tell me it was about fun when they took to the pitch the bellies had as much ambition as any county player , the difference being the before and after bit pints and more pints , Ive been lucky enough to spend time with quite a few county players and Ive never heard any of them describe the lifestyle as anything other than an honour and a joy , more interesting is recently retired players describing it as tough but they would do anything to be able to do it all over again , sounds like fun to me .
Just remember one thing theres hundreds of club players doing savage training without getting to HQ or anywhere so fancy .

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 04/02/2014 21:43:47    1541580

Listen lads,I believe Ulsterman quoted him before on here, apologies if I'm wrong there,but the american football coach Vince Lombardi puts it so well when he said,"Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser". You don't play to be second best,you play to win.You can still enjoy the game while trying to win.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 05/02/2014 08:50:17    1541600

Again, some pithy punchline from a coach in a throw-away interview might sound good, but on analysis, it simply doesnt stand up. How about the famous quote 'If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same'? In fact, the examples of winners on this thread, donegal, dublin, tyrone, kerry, have far more in common with the second quote than the first. They knew they were good enough to win, and so losing didnt affect them, they were winners all along.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 05/02/2014 10:09:30    1541623

Damo, is that a recent development because I had an under 11 team 3 seasons ago and there was medals awarded and league tables same at u12 the year afterand scores could be viewed on hill 16 website?

Brianmac78 (Dublin) - Posts: 1168 - 05/02/2014 13:05:47    1541722

05/02/2014 13:05:47
Brianmac78
Damo, is that a recent development because I had an under 11 team 3 seasons ago and there was medals awarded and league tables same at u12 the year afterand scores could be viewed on hill 16 website? Became national policy in 2009 and after a National Review in 2012, the Games were written into rule in 2013.
http://www.gaa.ie/gogames/

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 05/02/2014 14:00:20    1541755

Ulsterman
County: Antrim
Posts: 6616

1541236 At the top level it's all about winning and if you wan't enjoyment go to a funfare. Was it Vince Lombardi who said "Show me a good loser and I will show you.......a loser"? The time for laughing, hooping and hollering is when you have SAM, a National League or provincial medal in your back pocket; then you can celebrate. However it's more of the same drivel from the usual sources that "Tyrone weren't easy on the eye". Tyrone combined a defensive game with quick attacks that were a real joy to watch at times. Their destruction of Dublin in 2008 in awful conditions was as brilliant an exhibition of controlled, attacking football as you will see as was the way they dismantled Kerry in the final. Peter Canavan's goal against Kerry in 2005 was skill of the highest level and this nonsense we continue to hear about them is stereotypical **** from people who have an agenda against Tyrone and Ulster football in general. If you are competing at the top level it's ALL about winning and Tyrone right through from minor to U-21 to senior had that winning mentality in abundance. Armagh were also physical but combined that with great forward play from McConville, McDonnell, Clarke, Marsden etc. In my opinion Armagh didn't use their brilliant forwards as well as they should and only won SAM once as a consequence. Again Donegal have great players in Lacey, Murphy and McFadden but knew they had to use tactics and a locked down defence to win at the top level. Winning ugly is still winning while losers and losing will always be that and while this may sound unfair the likes of this team Mayo will just be remembered as the team who lost all the time. No one really remembers the form in finals or how a game went but they do know who won. Some of you should stop taking your cue on Tyrone,Armagh and Donegal from Spillane, the Indo and the rest and actually watch and analyse games....or maybe it's just the fact of geography, prejudice and bias that stops you. "There are none so blind as those who cannot see".

Well said UM- Great post.

Wayno1 in complete disagreement with you regarding Tyrone playing negatively. Its unbelievable how many sheep grabbed to this notion that this football was poor just because Spillane and the rest of the Southern media. I know i may be biased being from Tyrone but their football was unbelievable to watch at times. If you take a look at the scores they racked up in the 00's i guarentee they avergae as much as any other team. and some of the games they were involved in were class- 05 & 08 final, 03 ulster final v down, tyr v dublin in 05 & 08

sam09 (Tyrone) - Posts: 339 - 05/02/2014 14:58:32    1541804

sam09
It depends what you consider to be negative football. Tyrone had some very good footballers and a relentless intensity which meant that on many occasions they could build big scores and destroy teams. However the problem alot of football lovers had with the type of game they played was best shown in the 2004 minor football final when Darren O'Sullivan, the outstanding minor at that time, was fouled 8 of the 9 times he had the ball in a dangerous area. I think from memory there were 4 or 5 (or 6?) yellow cards handed out to Tyrone defenders that day for fouling O'Sullivan, with every time a player was booked a new one moved on to him. They stopped the opposition by any means, which meant you could never have a proper game because once out of possession, Tyrone would employ incredibly negative, spoiling tactics designed to upset the rythm of the opposition. Whether this was done inside or outside the rules was of little concern to them. The throw-in for the 2nd half of the Tyrone-Mayo game this year was the first time I have ever seen a referee havin to tell a player to move into the other half so both teams at least lined up with 6 backs and 6 forwards for the throw-in.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 05/02/2014 15:46:57    1541838

Soma
one minor game would hardly be enough to tar the entire County as negetative. Im sure you could look at any county (minor and senior games) and find examples of this sort of thing happening.
In the 96 semi Meath done their best to take Dooher, McBride and Canavan out of the game, Tagdh Kennelly took nicolas murphy out of the game in the 09 all ireland final. these are a couple of examples but Meath and Kerry are not portrayed as negative the same way tyrone are

sam09 (Tyrone) - Posts: 339 - 05/02/2014 16:09:02    1541863

sam09
The one thing we are constantly reminded about Tyrone, by both those inside and outside the county, is that they are such a professional organisation with every team from underage up working to the Tyrone system so that every player knows his job etc etc. The reason I mention the minor game is because even the most one-eyed Tyrone fan would struggle to suggest that what Tyrone done to O'Sullivan that day was not pre-planned, cynical, the opposite of everything the GAA should stand for just a disgrace really. It seems clear that Tyrone's management team identified that the opposition were too talented for them and so devised a plan that would allow them win the game by systematically fouling the opposition, and instructed their players on exactly what they needed to do to achieve this. As I remeber it at the time, very few Tyrone people had any issue with this, and instead blamed it on Kerry being soft whingers. There are not any examples as obvious from the senior team, but anyone watching Tyrone can see that a systematic fouling system does get used when they feel it is required.
Regarding your comments on Meath - the Meath team of that era was renowned for being full of big, physical men who hit hard but mainly tried to hit fair. That they would target smaller men like Canavan and Dooher was expected and as long as they done it fairly not something I would have any problem with, otherwise the game would only be for small, fast players. However what Kennelly done was a disgrace, and when it came out that he intended to do that then most reasonable Kerry men expressed their disgust.
The Kerry-Tyrone 2004 game is interesting for this thread. Kerry went out to enjoy the game and try and win, Tyrone simply went out to win. Tyrone had the success on the day, but since then how many senior medals have the players from each side won? I have no idea of the answer to this but maybe you could count up the Tyrone ones and some from the kingdom can count the Kerry ones?

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 05/02/2014 16:43:55    1541886

The one thing we are constantly reminded about Tyrone, by both those inside and outside the county, is that they are such a professional organisation with every team from underage up working to the Tyrone system so that every player knows his job etc etc.

Im sorry but that simply isnt true- sure werent the Tyrone Minors praised last year for their attacking style of football while at the same time the Tyrone Seniors were slated for their negativity? Hardly two teams that are playing to the same system.

sam09 (Tyrone) - Posts: 339 - 05/02/2014 17:09:32    1541900

sam09
Ah I am not sure, maybe within Tyrone but I dont think they were outside of Tyrone. I remember their semi-final against Roscommon and the final against Mayo and there were a number of yellow cards given for deliberately dragging players to the ground. One of the worst offenders was the corner-back who was a nephew of a former Dublin footballer, I cant recall his name but it was grim viewing, especially against Roscommon when they scored 3 points in the 1st half playing an extra defender. The depressing thing was they were better than Roscommon, and had the better footballers, but still insisted on playing so, so negatively until they had to chase the game. Like a lot of Tyrone teams they just lacked the courage to take on the opposition, hopefully in the years ahead they might leave this behind them so we can all enjoy the games.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 05/02/2014 17:36:10    1541920

Like a lot of Tyrone teams they just lacked the courage to take on the opposition

That's a load of rubbish. Don't think you could claim that the Tyrone team under Mickey Harte lacked 'courage'. Won 3 all-irelands for the first time in the county's history and weren't half as defensive as people like to portray. In the '05 final Tyrone scored 1-12 out of 1-16 from play, in the '08 final Tyrone scored 1-13 out of 1-15 from play. Two of the greatest all-ireland performances of all-time in my opinion, considering Kerry were one of the best teams of all time. Against Roscommon the Tyrone minor team kept it tight in the first-half then opened up in the second half. That was a very young minor team and did brilliantly to get the final, they weren't really expected to do as well. Did the Dublin and Donegal teams in 2011 and 2012 lack courage too? Kerry of all teams were very defensive in the second half of the 2009 final, I suppose they weren't very courageous either.

MichaelO (Tyrone) - Posts: 820 - 05/02/2014 18:03:29    1541942

I don't think Tyrone were negative, We felt their force in 2008 , Mickey Harte challenged the status quo ,Came at it from a different perspective and won 3 ALL Irelands but instead of being heralded for ingenuity had to listen to the likes of Spillane who was like a spoilt kid because his county weren't getting it all their own way and everybody wasn't playing by their rules.

AthCliath (Dublin) - Posts: 4347 - 05/02/2014 18:32:07    1541957

It stands up every time TheMaster and if ever a player told his manager and team mates that he was indeed content with being second best they would rightly castigate him and drop him from the team.There is no shame in not winning but there is nothing admirable about putting in half hearted performances when perhaps your team mates are busting a gut for the jersey.I seen this often when I played underage,guys that were better than me but couldn,t be bothered if the opposition opened up a bit of a lead.You can be absolutely certain that the Mayo boys would give back all the runners up medals for just one winners medal.Thats a fact for sure.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 05/02/2014 18:46:54    1541961

MichaelO
There are lots of different forms of courage, and while that Tyrone team had physical courage (though the odd one was prone to cowardly acts, like most counties) I always believed they lacked football courage. Instead of going out and taking on the opposition, too often they appeared afraid to do this and instead relied on tactical fouling and packed defences. Even now they persist with this style, as I mentioned earlier Conor Gormley was the first footballer I ever saw having to be told by the referee to move into the forward line for the throw-in so Tyrone at least lined out with 6 forwards for the restart of the All-Ireland semi-final. He wasn't filtering back to win ball, the Tyrone team were afraid Mayo would win the trow-in and wouldnt be able to stop them with 6 against 6. And that is against Mayo forwards in Croke Park!! I will go back to the 2004 minor final as I feel that sums it up best. Instead of trusting their players ability to take on Kerry, the Tyrone management decided they were not as good as the opposition and so would need to use an elaborate fouling system instead to try and beat them. I can not imagine being told this as a 17 or 18 year old, or indeed having to believe this at that age. I would rather try and take them on and if beaten at least I would know what I have to improve on and how high the bar is being set. For them Tyrone lads they never even got the chance to test themselves against the best, instead having to play to a system of fouling. Again, is it better to win or enjoy it?
Regarding your defence of this years minor side, many young sides go to Croke Park and they tend to play with adventure and freeness where they can express all their skills. The Tyrone team went up and played an extra defender, scoring 3 points in the first half! It is noticeable how poorly Tyrone senior club teams are doing in the Ulster championship, I wonder if this type of thinking is having a poor effect across the board?

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 05/02/2014 19:30:12    1541984

There are lots of different forms of courage, and while that Tyrone team had physical courage (though the odd one was prone to cowardly acts, like most counties) I always believed they lacked football courage. Instead of going out and taking on the opposition, too often they appeared afraid to do this and instead relied on tactical fouling and packed defences.

This stuff about packed defences is such an exaggeration. What about the famous 2003 semi-final? Tyrone led six points to zero and Kerry didn't have possession of the ball in the Tyrone half til the 6th minute. What about Tyrone's performances in the 2005 and 2008 finals? What about Tyrone coming back from nine points behind against Down in the 2003 Ulster final or coming from five points behind against Dublin in 2005 etc etc. You only seem to bring up minor matches which probably says it all.

MichaelO (Tyrone) - Posts: 820 - 05/02/2014 19:51:05    1541996

Tyrone have put in some good performances in the last 12 years, nobody denies that. And they have put in some excellent attacking displays, as you would expect from a county that has had Canavan, Mulligan, O'Neill, Cavanagh etc. The problem is their general approach has during that time mainly been negative, defensive and cynical. I know you don't like hearing this but it is obvious to most observers. Even the famous rugby tackle last year, after a long ball kicked in from open play and the full forward rounding the full back, it is 1 midfielder who pulls down the attacker and the other midfielder who trips over them both on the ground. They were not out trying to dominate the middle of the field, they were in fouling on their own 21. They won the game though and for them that is all that matters I suppose, sadly.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 05/02/2014 20:16:03    1542007

Have to say the hidings we took from Tyrone were down to superior players playing yes to a system , but having fantastic skills to execute the system , if Im to be picky the amount of handpassing thats a blight on the game IMO came from that era , and lesser players and lesser coaches adopted it , now its one thing doing it with the blue bloods that Tyrone had , but it hurts to watch when the inferior teams tried to copy .
Tyrone have never gotten the credit for the success or players they had , bar up north , and personally its a case again IMO of which came first the chicken or the egg ,
Biased southern media v the not so friendly Mickey Harte , neither giving an inch ,for me sitting in HQ getting hammered was never a pleasure , but I always knew I was watching a team that would be talked about and remembered .

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 05/02/2014 20:33:38    1542014

1 midfielder who pulls down the attacker and the other midfielder who trips over them both on the ground. They were not out trying to dominate the middle of the field, they were in fouling on their own 21.

Yeah that same midfielder kicked 3 points from play and was man of the match and also won his fifth all-star last year. Dublin were plenty cynical in the closing stages of the Kerry and Mayo matches. Kerry committed a number of cynical tackles that quarter-final weekend against Cavan for example. I don't have anything whatsoever against Dublin or Kerry by the way but I'm sure you think that Tyrone are a lot more cynical than the rest so we'll probably have to agree to disagree.

MichaelO (Tyrone) - Posts: 820 - 05/02/2014 20:45:20    1542018

He done all them things because he is one of the best footballers in the country, and has been for the past 6 years. That is why watching Tyrone play the way they do is so mystifying, and disappointing to watch. Ah wel, thankfully the dark days seem to be coming to an end and so Tyrone will have little option but to become a braver attacking team or they will be left well behind.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 05/02/2014 21:04:09    1542023