I think some parents need to look at themselves, roaring and shouting on sidelines are their own kid, other kids and abusing the ref. I think we have all heard of these stories and some of you may have witnessed it. Ive seen a parent run on a field and nearly assult a manager and having to be put outside the ground all because young johny didn't get a game. If that is the standards some parents are bringing their kids up in, well them you have no respect as a sportsperson and kids don't have fun.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11232 - 04/02/2014 12:43:19    1541156

I can safely say I have never enjoyed losing anything. That goes from mini-leagues right up to the present day. I am looking after a junior team this year and the first thing I said to the lads was - We are all here for a bit of craic and enjoyment but nobody will enjoy getting up on a Sunday morning and losing, so its up to yourselves how serious you want to take your football. That is why intercounty players make these sacrifices because if they are lucky enough to win in September it all becomes worth it.

Most kids who play sport hate losing, the reason most play sport is they are competitive naturally.
Put it this was, I have seen children walk off the pitch after a feile final balling their eyes out. I can be 100% certain it wasn't the at the fact the managers would berate them. It was the fact that they lost.

GAA was a much more social game in the 80s/90s and players would have a few pints before a match, soccer was the same. The reason they don't do it anymore is because they could do it back then and still win games the next day because everyone was doing it. As soon as it effects a teams ability to win they cut it out.

We should be happy with this fact as it means the intensity and quality of GAA (both football and hurling) will improve and improve as a spectacle IMO.

bobby_shane (Dublin) - Posts: 106 - 04/02/2014 12:46:09    1541159

I also really enjoyed the Tyrone/Kerry matches, the intensity and rivalry were very much to the fore! I'm talking in general, league matches, club games etc, AIs are the showpieces and generate their own interest no matter what. But I definitely think enjoyment is more important than winning and I can speak from experience, unfortunately :)

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8592 - 04/02/2014 12:52:59    1541168

Agree about the shouting parents, absolute disgrace and an embarrassment to themselves and their poor kids.

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8592 - 04/02/2014 12:53:54    1541169

I just find your stance on it all a bit peculiar GetOverTheBar, but I know it is a common one. So you wouldn't assault an opposing player who is better than you and cause him an injury, but would be happy to pull and drag him for 60 minutes instead? How about diving, nobody gets hurt but your team have a better chance of winning if you are good at it?!
I am not actually picking on you here it is just I see that there is a big difference on how the game is played throughout the country having played with lads from lots of different counties over here, and have never been able to understand how a team really celebrates a victory knowing they cheated to win, or didn't have the courage to actually go out and try and take on the opposition in the skills of the game. I would much rather enjoy 7 months of training, improving skills and taking on teams and then getting beaten in a semi-final than spending 8 months becoming super-fit, physical and hiding in my own half with 12 other defenders but actually winning a title.
I know at home as well genuine supporters within your own club would rather go and watch you play 60 minutes of excellent football and get beat than watch you play 60 minutes of rubbish and win. Only the idiot back-slappers, who probably have no real involvement with the club but will gloat to their work colleagues, get much satisfaction from winning in a negative way after a while. Club and county legends tend to be lads who can kick scores, field high-balls, dominate an opposition forward etc. The bleep-test champion, the lad who wins dirty ball but is only able to handpass it and the lad who can win handy frees tend to be soon forgotten.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 04/02/2014 12:59:43    1541173

Isn't it possible to to win and have fun doing so?

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 04/02/2014 13:05:59    1541177

Inter county should 100% be about winning

At club level from u15 up it should be about winning with a push to that mentality at 13 and 14. From u6 up to u13 it should be about learning the skills and enjoying the run around playing hurling and football.

Im my humble opion scores should not even be kept in games up to u13, trophies should not be awarded for leagues. Play for fun and to learn. Ive seen it at u11 or u12 where teams have 10 players but the other team play with 11 or demand the points before thegame. Thats sad at that age and managers who dont give every kid a run should be ashamed of themselves. Giving a kid 2minutes at the end when the game is won is scadalous. They should all get fair time on the field to bring on there development

Brianmac78 (Dublin) - Posts: 1168 - 04/02/2014 13:10:27    1541179

At the top level it's all about winning and if you wan't enjoyment go to a funfare. Was it Vince Lombardi who said "Show me a good loser and I will show you.......a loser"? The time for laughing, hooping and hollering is when you have SAM, a National League or provincial medal in your back pocket; then you can celebrate. However it's more of the same drivel from the usual sources that "Tyrone weren't easy on the eye". Tyrone combined a defensive game with quick attacks that were a real joy to watch at times. Their destruction of Dublin in 2008 in awful conditions was as brilliant an exhibition of controlled, attacking football as you will see as was the way they dismantled Kerry in the final. Peter Canavan's goal against Kerry in 2005 was skill of the highest level and this nonsense we continue to hear about them is stereotypical **** from people who have an agenda against Tyrone and Ulster football in general. If you are competing at the top level it's ALL about winning and Tyrone right through from minor to U-21 to senior had that winning mentality in abundance. Armagh were also physical but combined that with great forward play from McConville, McDonnell, Clarke, Marsden etc. In my opinion Armagh didn't use their brilliant forwards as well as they should and only won SAM once as a consequence. Again Donegal have great players in Lacey, Murphy and McFadden but knew they had to use tactics and a locked down defence to win at the top level. Winning ugly is still winning while losers and losing will always be that and while this may sound unfair the likes of this team Mayo will just be remembered as the team who lost all the time. No one really remembers the form in finals or how a game went but they do know who won. Some of you should stop taking your cue on Tyrone,Armagh and Donegal from Spillane, the Indo and the rest and actually watch and analyse games....or maybe it's just the fact of geography, prejudice and bias that stops you. "There are none so blind as those who cannot see".

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9706 - 04/02/2014 14:16:22    1541236

Completely agree with Ulsterman point made as well as possible there.

bobby_shane (Dublin) - Posts: 106 - 04/02/2014 14:42:48    1541248

The good thing for Dubs but maybe not for the rest is that this Dublin era of players now have that winning mentality and they could dominate for a while. Most of them now have two SAM's and they know how to get over the line so it could be a case of get the popcorn out and sit and watch Dublin dominate for a decade. In my opinion Dublin are a young, determined, focused, very fit squad who know how to win now. I don't think they are the greatest collection of footballers Dublin have ever had but they are great athletes; I think the Dublin team of the early 90's were better footballers. This Mayo team probably have better footballers than Dublin but they don't know how to win and in finals they play with fear because of it. Mayo are crippled from losing and I would say they and their fans would rather have trophies in the bag than patronising slaps on the back. Anyone who says it's just about enjoyment at this level is deluded.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9706 - 04/02/2014 14:59:25    1541262

Ulsterman
However it's more of the same drivel from the usual sources that "Tyrone weren't easy on the eye". Tyrone combined a defensive game with quick attacks that were a real joy to watch at times.

Without making it about tyrone, I find the above contradictory. You make a point about people focusing on tyrone's bad side, yet then yourself focus solely on their good side. The truth is tyrone had some fine footballers and what you say is true, but they were also a very cyncial team and ignoring that makes you just as bad as those you are slating.

Similarly, you make a point about dublin, but you also inadvertantly make another one in the tyrone point that again, contradicts your own stance. You say tyrone blew them away, yet you say dublin have a winning mentality going for them. Well many of the same guys played in both games, so which is it? They are either losers and cannot change that, or they are winners, like you say in the rest of your post... The truth is losing a game doesnt make a player or team a loser. For all your points about mayo, a hop of a ball, or a better connection on the fisted effort from bernard brogan and they could have won sam. This born winner, born loser stuff that you read is just media dramatised nonsense. There are no team of losers taking to the field on all ireland final day, world cup final day, champions league final day or any other final of note. They wouldnt be there if they were losers.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 04/02/2014 15:40:17    1541300

Well many of the same guys played in both games
S Cluxton; D Henry, R McConnell, P Griffin; C Moran, B Cullen, B Cahill (0-01); C Whelan, S Ryan; D Connolly, J Sherlock, K Bonner; A Brogan (capt), C Keaney (1-01), T Quinn (0-02, 2f).

I don't think you have done much research on that one.
Dublin's new crop of players that won the AI last year have a winning mentality. Drilled into them from minor onwards by Dessie Farrel and Jim Gavin.

Not only a winning mentality but winning and playing with style.
yes we can go back to the last 5-10 mins of the final but what about the other 350 odd minutes.

bobby_shane (Dublin) - Posts: 106 - 04/02/2014 16:10:15    1541329

Master,

Mayo could, would, should......but ultimately didn't and that's the difference. Whether you like it or not the wider view amongst many within the GAA and media is that Mayo do have that 'loser, bottler' image about them and it's become a millstone around their necks which they now carry as a burden. This current Mayo team will NOT win SAM because it's the same collection of players who have continually lost at the final hurdle time and time again. Yes Tyrone and Dublin have won and lost BUT they have at least experienced winning in All Ireland and National League final and I would say the fact that they won means far more to them than how they won. Society, the media and sporting people are very judgemental and unless Mayo win SAM soon they will always be remembered as losers no matter what you say or how strongly you protest; that is the nature of the beast and by the way it's no good bringing up Antrim. We are perennial losers at county level and we know it.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9706 - 04/02/2014 16:20:03    1541334

The Dubs most certainly have that winning mentality Bobby but "playing with style"???? That is stretching it a bit. They have strength in depth, are very fit and are great athletes but they are more carthorse than thorougbred and are operating in an era when Kerry and Tyrone are rebuilding. Dublin may have their own fans sitting on the edge of their seat but I mean you wouldn't go out of your way to go and watch them for their great football or entertainment purposes.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9706 - 04/02/2014 16:38:30    1541352

Ulsterman, I am not so sure. I think if you ask the majority of GAA football fans you will find Dublin were the most appealing on the eye to watch last year. In my opinion they balance both style and power and have the winning formula in the current game. You can only beat what is put in front of you.

Either way the way a team plays is a preference to the individual. This thread is about if football should be played to win or have fun and I think we can agree that when you get to the top level there is absolutely no fun in losing gracefully. Its still losing!

bobby_shane (Dublin) - Posts: 106 - 04/02/2014 16:55:38    1541370

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 111

1541173
I just find your stance on it all a bit peculiar GetOverTheBar, but I know it is a common one. So you wouldn't assault an opposing player who is better than you and cause him an injury, but would be happy to pull and drag him for 60 minutes instead? How about diving, nobody gets hurt but your team have a better chance of winning if you are good at it?!
I am not actually picking on you here it is just I see that there is a big difference on how the game is played throughout the country having played with lads from lots of different counties over here, and have never been able to understand how a team really celebrates a victory knowing they cheated to win, or didn't have the courage to actually go out and try and take on the opposition in the skills of the game. I would much rather enjoy 7 months of training, improving skills and taking on teams and then getting beaten in a semi-final than spending 8 months becoming super-fit, physical and hiding in my own half with 12 other defenders but actually winning a title.
I know at home as well genuine supporters within your own club would rather go and watch you play 60 minutes of excellent football and get beat than watch you play 60 minutes of rubbish and win. Only the idiot back-slappers, who probably have no real involvement with the club but will gloat to their work colleagues, get much satisfaction from winning in a negative way after a while. Club and county legends tend to be lads who can kick scores, field high-balls, dominate an opposition forward etc. The bleep-test champion, the lad who wins dirty ball but is only able to handpass it and the lad who can win handy frees tend to be soon forgotten.

To be fair I am the latter player you mentioned there, the bleep test winner or whatever way you want to phrase it. Maybe it's because I don't possess the skills of some of my team mates that I have such an attitude - I'm fairly one footed, wouldn't be the greatest scorer but I'm a good runner and I play the 'safe' ball rarely losing possession.

I wouldn't be one for hauling men to ground or short pulling or any of that, but I do know how to slow a game down - when to stay down for a few minutes after a hit that wasn't just that hard to let the team organize or catch a breath.

I've been on the beer after losing big games, and I've been on the beer after winning big games and I can honestly say at no stage has any lad I've played with commented about how we didn't deserve to win. It's a very cynical attitude I'm sure others won't share it but look, at the end of the day, nobody remembers who came 2nd in the 100 metres at the Olympics. There is no shame in having the drive to win or the attitude to go and get it done, I only wish I had the business drive that would spare me to go on and earn a few quid!

GetOverTheBar (Tyrone) - Posts: 1388 - 04/02/2014 16:57:29    1541373

Ulsterman
Master,
Mayo could, would, should......but ultimately didn't and that's the difference. Whether you like it or not the wider view amongst many within the GAA and media is that Mayo do have that 'loser, bottler' image about them and it's become a millstone around their necks which they now carry as a burden.

Im fully aware that some people have this view. Im just pointing out that although it is a nice soundbite, it doesnt stand up to scrutiny in the real world. To say should, would, could, and then ignore the actual details is ridiculous. They won and lost the game on the details. Improvement in sport isnt a results driven business, it is all about analysing process. Media soundbites on the other hand, well that is all about the result. But media soundbites were never used to win anything in sport.

This current Mayo team will NOT win SAM because it's the same collection of players who have continually lost at the final hurdle time and time again.

Like dublin and cork? They won sam... That in one swoop disproves your point and doesnt say much about your pithy soudbite, other than that this is all it is; a soundbite. The reality is people just like these soundbites. They think they have some basis in reality, and so ultimately ignore when they are utterly disproven on numerous occasions. Now mayo might not win sam, but if they dont it wont be because bernard brogan flicked on a long ball and it dropped into the goals 1, 5 or 10 years ago. Just like if ireland dont qualify for the next euros, it wont be because they got hammered in the last one. Sport doesnt actually work like that.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 04/02/2014 17:11:46    1541388

You have a nice simple-minded way of looking at things Ulsterman. Just using your favoured county of Tyrone as an example, would you say you have a lot more respect for a winning footballer like Colm McCullagh (no particular reason why I picked him) than some of the losers who went before him like Plunkett Donaghy and Frank McGuigan, lads who came nowhere in the game? Also interesting that you believe Dublins carthorses are only succeeding because the giants of the game Tyrone are in a rebuilding phase. Tyrone have not appeared in the last 5 finals, they have won their entire collection of senior all-irelands in the space of 6 years! Considering we are told they have a conveyor belt of talent, how much longer is this rebuilding phase set to last?

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 04/02/2014 17:40:43    1541418

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 112

1541418
You have a nice simple-minded way of looking at things Ulsterman. Just using your favoured county of Tyrone as an example, would you say you have a lot more respect for a winning footballer like Colm McCullagh (no particular reason why I picked him) than some of the losers who went before him like Plunkett Donaghy and Frank McGuigan, lads who came nowhere in the game? Also interesting that you believe Dublins carthorses are only succeeding because the giants of the game Tyrone are in a rebuilding phase. Tyrone have not appeared in the last 5 finals, they have won their entire collection of senior all-irelands in the space of 6 years! Considering we are told they have a conveyor belt of talent, how much longer is this rebuilding phase set to last?





Careful now! ;)

TheGateKeeper (Tyrone) - Posts: 2843 - 04/02/2014 17:45:15    1541421

Ulster an I think we will have to get our Southern friends reading a GOOD GAA paper like The Irish News and stop reading the Indo
On your post about Mayo not being able to win the Sam ,what about the position Donegal were in 2004/2010. I was at most of the games :::lost Ulster final to Armagh by a big score , beat again in 2006 by Armagh ,2010 hammered out of Crossmaglen by Armagh in a back door game Where were WE in September 2012 ?????Yes that's right up collecting the Sam in the Hogan Stand and CROKE Park shaking to the song ::::: Las Vegas in the Hills of Donegal. I think 11 of the team who played in Crossmaglen played in that All Ireland This present Mayo team never suffered the Defeats Donegal did a few years ago, yet most of that Donegal team went on to win the Sam. So I won't write off Mayo at all yet, in fact I fancy a Donegal vMayo All Ireland final.
As regards to winning I'd say most people would put winning before enjoyment. I did not enjoy much in Clones last year but as I said to a few other Donegal supporters after the game when we saw the Monaghan supporters celebrating ::: that was US last year and the year before. So I'd say the big enjoyment comes from winning.

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 04/02/2014 21:02:29    1541557