I often hear on soccer debates between "experts" on SkySports etc about successful countries in club and international football being brought up to view the game in different ways. In England for example, Kids are coached from an early age and are engraved with the mentality of winning. Whereas in Spain and Germany, Kids who play football are basically just told to go out and express themselves and enjoy it. Have fun, Its NOT all about winning, Its just a game.

Made me wonder what you lads feel about the mentality of coaches and kids playing the game today as oppose to maybe 20 or 30 years ago. Has the game evolved from having a bit of fun and lads expressing themselves, To a must-win mentality to the detriment of the players.

On the pitch, Tyrone's success of the 00's saw a different type of approach. What Mickey Harte and his side did was they changed the way they played the game with a more defensive style of game-plan, It wasnt as pretty on the eye or as entertaining from a neutral fans point of view, and for the footballer involved alot more work and attention to detail was required. It was something that Tyrone did and it worked for them, In years after we saw other teams like Dublin and Donegal use that Tyrone blueprint in order to be successful themselves (And it worked for them too), at the expense of free flowing entertaining end to end football. But it was effective for the result and those teams won All Irelands.

Off the pitch the players make unbelievable sacrifices, Gone are the days when you could have a curry and a pint the night before a game to calm the nerves. Nowadays you have players like robots, They go by specific diets, They have to go to the gym x amount of times a day, I know that Dublin players do be given a plan at the start of every week and on it, It explains what they should eat etc. Early morning training sessions in january, They are professional in all but name

My question is, Has gaelic games especially at intercounty level, become more about winning than just enjoying yourself out there? And if so, Is it a bad thing ?

waynoI (Dublin) - Posts: 13650 - 03/02/2014 18:14:27    1540850

Read Joe Brollys latest piece, he addresses all this, from a personal point of view, I'd rather watch paint dry than negative football!

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8605 - 03/02/2014 19:30:17    1540897

I can't recall from my time playing to coaching when there was never an emphasis on winning. The juvenile game has changed, for the better, but games are still there to be won. What we have now at county level is a race to the top table and for amateurs it is tough. Do intercounty players enjoy the game? They have to or they wouldn't do it but maybe they burn out that bit quicker.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4903 - 03/02/2014 19:51:30    1540920

Very simple from my own experience playing:
As a small kid we just played the game and tried to win ourselves (its called human nature).
At about 13 years old and we realised ourselves that we had points to prove about ourselves as a team and so the hard training was done and the hard calls were made by managers!
At minor level.....the spadework had been done in the previous years for to compete at a big time serious level!

All in all, 'MINOR' is what makes a man of you and theres no point in getting to that age and only starting then to leave the baby stuff behind you cos its too late then and you will be laughed off the pitch!

Conclusion: A manager trying to instill winning mentality into kids who after training will go home and play with action figures and watch cartoons (or whatever the modern equivalent of a 'real child' does these days) is just daft!
A bunch of kids in a team grow up together and become teenage boys together and get to know who they are and where they are from together as they move into secondary school with the 'big boys'.....then the bit of pride of place and of who they are comes about!

Regards,

Snufalufagus....Laochra Gael

Snufalufagus (Dublin) - Posts: 8100 - 03/02/2014 20:23:43    1540943

Football at inter county level thirty years ago was about winning too.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 03/02/2014 20:31:31    1540949

This engraving of children is a bit extreme IMO.

mod (Mayo) - Posts: 859 - 03/02/2014 20:38:37    1540957

Since when has intercounty football ever been about the craic and winning secondary?

brendtheredhand (Tyrone) - Posts: 10897 - 03/02/2014 20:56:16    1540962

It is not the kids we need to worry about it is some of the coaches going mad at U8's and U10's in matches. Some coaches and parents need to take a look at themselves at the way they go on.I saw a U 8 manager last year being sent off by a ref for constant verbal abuse at him. Some seem to think the kids are playing in All Ireland finals instead of Go Game matches. Thanfully most are not too bad.

dufferman (Down) - Posts: 156 - 03/02/2014 21:22:11    1540982

It wasnt as pretty on the eye or as entertaining from a neutral fans point of view

Yeah the 05 and 08 finals were terrible for example. Last year's was much better.

MichaelO (Tyrone) - Posts: 820 - 03/02/2014 21:23:31    1540984

My own personal opinion is that winning should be a second thought until your 18, basic skills should take precedence - working on your weaker foot should bring a manager more joy than winning an under 16 game, this is something I will certainly be implementing when I dip my toes into management.

Once you hit 18, I would imagine a decent minor manager should be plotting your path towards senior football/hurling, giving you honest appraisals on strengths and weaknesses and the minor managers sole job should be to provide 3 players ready for senior football and 3 ready for the bench. Winning while good at minor level, can still come a little easy if you have one special talent in your team as I seen from my own personal minor experiences.

Once you hit senior football/hurling - winning is everything, personally I couldn't care less how it's done, it's getting the job done - Dublin last year, sensational, scoring goals for fun - emerging serious talent and they were a joy to watch and this covers up for the last 15 minutes of the AI Final when they did what they had to do, everyone knows it but not one team wouldn't have done any different - at least, a team with a winning mentality would have done different.

Senior intercounty players put their lives on hold for what they hope is a 9 month season, training twice a day sometimes with work in between that. The only payment a Gaelic footballer gets is winning and I find it ridiculous that some people on here, who probably have never even played either sport can sit and come out with the rubbish of 'I wouldn't watch defensive football'. There is an art to defence too, you just don't understand it.

GetOverTheBar (Tyrone) - Posts: 1388 - 04/02/2014 08:19:08    1541012

The 2005/08 finals were great games,I came over from London in 2005 to support Tyrone as all the southern boys here were on about Kerry and the second team they had on the bench Iv been to about five All Ireland's and really enjoyed the 2005 one with Tyrone winning an added bonus. As regards Realdud well I rather watch negative football anytime than watch paint dry. If you watched the end of last years All Ireland you saw a fair bit of negative football in the last 7 minutes or so. What we have now with inter county football is here to stay for the foreseeable future. At the end of September whoever wins the Sam , that county's supporters won't be complaining how the played or how they won.

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 04/02/2014 09:25:29    1541026

It is all about winning. Full stop.

Too much money being pumped in by sponsors to cover everything from foreign training camps to physios to dieticians to statisticians for it to be any other way.

Laytown Legend (None) - Posts: 424 - 04/02/2014 09:41:25    1541031

GetOverTheBar
Once you hit senior football/hurling - winning is everything, personally I couldn't care less how it's done, it's getting the job done
How far would you take this? If you knew the opposition had 1 key scoring forward would you be happy to break his jaw off the ball just to make sure of victory for your side?

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 04/02/2014 10:11:45    1541053

GAA has changed so much in the last 30 years, all I can say is I don't think I would enjoy it if I was still playing at a decent level, the amount of training, gym work, diets etc. are crazy. It certainly was more sociable to play sport in the 80s and 90s. I know of a team who were banned from drinking the night they qualified for the County Intermediate Final, and that game wasn't on until 3 weeks later! Some people have a pathalogical approach to winning, there is no mention of enjoyment. Jack Sheedy had the Longford panel in the dressing room before noon on Sunday for a 2pm throw in. A former county player commented that he'd would have been passing the Spa Hotel in Lucan doing 80mph at that time :-) But I suppose the ultra professionalism that is employed nowadays is here to stay so no point in bemoaning the past!

Salmanneile (Longford) - Posts: 113 - 04/02/2014 10:21:55    1541062

Children don't need adults of coaches to encourage them to win, its engrained in them already. if they win its great and good, if they lose, they forget about it almost immediately. It's the lunatic fringe of parents and coaches who harp on and on who take the enjoyment out of it for children than need shot with a ball of their own stuff.

The GAA has enough levels where the dedicated ones can go out and play senior and want to win, and that's good. Most clubs also cater for junior hurlers and/or footballers where its suited to a more relaxed attitude to training and winning, but no doubt during the game its all about winning and there's no harm in that either.

bricktop (Down) - Posts: 2503 - 04/02/2014 10:22:43    1541064

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 109

How far would you take this? If you knew the opposition had 1 key scoring forward would you be happy to break his jaw off the ball just to make sure of victory for your side?

Obviously I was talking about within reason - what your talking about is a blatent assualt, I'm talking about slowing the game down, taking the yellow cards, conceding the frees outside the scoring zone, pulling 14 men behind the halfway line to protect the lead in last minutes. Doing what you have to do within the rules, or perhaps slightly outside to get over the line - not breaking another players jaw, there is no room for that in Gaelic games.

To be honest lads, this whole talk about defensive football, winning mentalities is frankly mundane and boring. Considering we watch sports stars all the time who are doped up on everything going and then go on to become global superstars I think we can cut amatuer players a bit of slack for trying their best to get their all ireland medal.

GetOverTheBar (Tyrone) - Posts: 1388 - 04/02/2014 11:13:32    1541098

We should all just get to play Laois. That way you get to win and let's face it you're going to have a bit of fun at the same time!

doublehop (Kildare) - Posts: 4172 - 04/02/2014 11:38:59    1541113

If i recall Brolly correctly i think he got it wrong. He didn't appear to be able to differentiate between intercounty football and the Antrim Junior League. Intercounty football is all about winning and being successful, teams compete to win and better themselves. Of course what may be termed a success for some counties differs for others but the general aim of top level sport is to win and improve. You can't really link fallacies in the rules to a winning at all cost mentality alone. If the rules are inefficient then a naive person would expect them not to be broken.

When considering underage games the same criteria doesn't apply. Here the focus should be more on enjoyment, a social outlet, social inclusion, relationship building and obviously learning and acquiring the skills of a game. It gets ramped up as you get older but the onus should not be on winning alone. Of course you aim to win, but not at the detriment of the other criterium. Which is why i feel not selecting the skillful slender player in front of bigger muscular lads is wrong. Each individual should be given a chance if the will to play is there.

I think from minor up things begin to change as does the philosophy of young adults. Issues of social inclusion and a sense of belonging and place have or should already of been achieved and those that take it seriously strive to win. A winner takes all mentality is young kids is dangerous in my view!

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1658 - 04/02/2014 12:03:53    1541131

I dont believe that continental coaches dont care about winning. I think they just focus on developing the player's understanding more. There is a great example of johan cruyff playing dennis bergkamp at fullback when he was 17, to show him what it was like for a fullback who had a guy in front of him who didnt track back, and how damaging allowing an overlap was to your own team. This is an area where many gaa players are lacking in my book. Their training lacks that kind of thinking and real-game approach. We have attacking halfbacks up and down the country who do as much damage to their own team as they do good. Not all of course, but many. They are made fit and strong in drills, but many of those same drills arent designed to make them clever and give them an understanding of their role in the bigger picture. More often than not, they just leave their corner back exposed and crowd out their wing forward. I suppose at the end of the day it is an amateur position and most coaches are not into it that much that they will be spending time thinking about these things for each individual player at youth level for club football. However, that is where it needs to go in.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 04/02/2014 12:27:27    1541141

Sorry SamOnErrigal, 7 mins doesn't cut it, just because I prefer fluent attacking play there's no need to clutch at straws!

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8605 - 04/02/2014 12:38:16    1541150