tinrylandman

so you would have a huge level of cardio fitness, ahuge level of phyical strength,you would be able to solo,kick pass,hand pass,kick points off either feet,handpass points,tackle,time perfect shoulders to name just a few in a couple of weeks your some boyo.
I fail to see how anybody can actualy class one sport more skillfull then another as its impossible to do.
every sport has skills based on being important to that spcific sport and the way its played.
It would be like comparing a boat to a plane there both built for differant jobs.

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 03/12/2013 19:44:06    1520255

Ormond, your doggedness here is admirable but your understanding of the whole situation leaves a lot to be desired. I can provide statistics, backed up with verifiable sources and you will always return with your anecdotal figures. There isn't much point continuing really. Of course there are NZ lads over here, and most will be better than their Irish counterparts because they will be some of the more talented sportsmen from NZ. But there are also loads of Irish lads in OZ, NZ, UK, Canada etc playing rugby, we both know a few I am sure. These may be less talented than the NZ players coming over here but this is a debate on numbers, not quality. In the overall scheme of things the numbers from both are very small, and I would say largely cancel each other out.
Sonny Bill Williams plays league at the moment and looks good (except Saturday) but not really any more skilful than his teammates. He will be back playing union soon and will still look good, and a lot more skilful than many of his teammates there. Surely that indicates which sport most of the best ball players are playing?
As for your final example, it surely is further proof of my point. A rower moving to track cycling, 2 sports where physicality and athleticism are vital and the skills are quite basic, unless you are suggesting track cycling is a very skilful sport? Like rugby union, you can take up these sports at any age if you have the required physical make-up. But for skilful sports like hurling, gaelic football, soccer, golf, snooker etc you are never going to have a hope unless learning the skills from a very early age.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 03/12/2013 19:58:34    1520265

03/12/2013 19:58:34 Soma
Ormond, your doggedness here is admirable but your understanding of the whole situation leaves a lot to be desired. I can provide statistics, backed up with verifiable sources and you will always return with your anecdotal figures. There isn't much point continuing really. Of course there are NZ lads over here, and most will be better than their Irish counterparts because they will be some of the more talented sportsmen from NZ. But there are also loads of Irish lads in OZ, NZ, UK, Canada etc playing rugby, we both know a few I am sure. These may be less talented than the NZ players coming over here but this is a debate on numbers, not quality. In the overall scheme of things the numbers from both are very small, and I would say largely cancel each other out.
Sonny Bill Williams plays league at the moment and looks good (except Saturday) but not really any more skilful than his teammates. He will be back playing union soon and will still look good, and a lot more skilful than many of his teammates there. Surely that indicates which sport most of the best ball players are playing?
As for your final example, it surely is further proof of my point. A rower moving to track cycling, 2 sports where physicality and athleticism are vital and the skills are quite basic, unless you are suggesting track cycling is a very skilful sport? Like rugby union, you can take up these sports at any age if you have the required physical make-up. But for skilful sports like hurling, gaelic football, soccer, golf, snooker etc you are never going to have a hope unless learning the skills from a very early age.
As does yours going by your comparison of Sonny Bill playing rugby league with 1 of the top 2 nations in the world and he will go back to union and will look good. Not a lot more skilful than his team-mates.
If rugby union was that simple there would be thousands who'd made it to the top having barely played a sport but that's not the case and in 99% of cases those who play to a very high level in a sport soon after starting up generally are top class in the sport they were playing and would be top class in any sport they put their mind to.
You could definitely see players making it to a high level of gaelic football taking the sport up late but that rarely happens due to the nature of GAA only really existing in Ireland, played by the majority of the population already so there is very few who do take it up later than normal in life. That is not the case with rugby.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/12/2013 20:23:42    1520281

tinrylandman
County: Carlow
Posts: 265

1520228
Soma any half decent athlete would have the skills of Gaelic football mastered with in weeks ,it is the most basic of all field sports that is not to say its not good just very basic.

The most basic of all field sports?? Any half decent athlete would have the skills of Gaelic football mastered with in weeks?? Are you for real man?! So why are counties like Carlow, Wicklow, Kilkenny, Waterford, etc. so bad at Football - have they no half decent athletes in those counties?? Gaelic Football is very skillful sport, watch Colm Cooper, Stephen O'Neill, Michael Meehan and tell me that again. I've seen soccer, rugby, basketball all sorts of players attempt to succeed in Gaelic Football and never once have I seen any succeed in the sport. Name one Gaelic footballer who has transferred from another sport and didn't play Gaelic when they were young??

And out of interest since this debate is going, I personally can't vouch for which is a harder sport to pick up Football or Hurling because Football was bred into me from a very young age, so Hurling obviously seemed hard when I tried to pick it up at 16 but what are others experiences?? I live in Canada now and we just started a Hurling team, and in fairness 2 of the Canadian lads that tried Hurling are picking it up much faster than they did Football.

JMK (Kerry) - Posts: 273 - 03/12/2013 20:46:39    1520301

If the Kilkenny hurling panel started training for a month for football and played a few challenge games they would beat most teams in Leinster apart from Dublin. In limerick this year the club Feenagh / Klimeedy who won the Junior A hurling title also won the Junior B football and really never trained for the football until the hurling was over. The reverse of that could never happen in Limerick. Is there any county where a predominantly football club could just switch to hurling for a few weeks and win a county title.

Clubgaa (Limerick) - Posts: 879 - 04/12/2013 09:39:55    1520356

clubgaa

thats rubbish talk,kilkenny wouldnt have ahope against any of the sides.
theres no proof that either can be fought off against each other.
some people are better at football and some people are better at hurling and some people are good at both.
take conal keeney for example as you say good hurlers can easily make good footballers,he was always brilliant hurler then tryed his luck with footballers and while a good footballer was never able to make the impact he can make with hurling.
yes to answer your other question kilmacud crokes won the dublin senior hurling championship last year.

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 04/12/2013 13:49:04    1520468

Ormond
I am unsure why you came back to this topic or indeed why you are so bothered at the suggestions that the skills in rugby are basic. Like rowing, track cycling etc it still requires great athleticism, physique, dedication, bravery, can be great to watch, can produce real excitement and anyone can enjoy it. However like the other sports mentioned the skills required are quiet basic, albeit rugby does require some more skills than the others. I don't understand what point you are making on SBW, your sentence seems to be missing a word?
I don't really know why you contest the skill levels required when the examples are so numerous for why the skills are basic. Tom Court was an excellent shot putter, and at the age of 23 decided to take up the game of rugby to lose some weight. Within 18 months he was a professional rugby player, and has now played for the B&I Lions. Are you really suggesting that if he took up football, hurling, soccer etc at that age he would have become even decent?
As I live in the UK I get to see lots of players who try to take up football in adulthood, some of whom are fairly talented rugby players (inspired by Zinzan Brooke's story), and they really never make much progress. The local lads who come through from underage football can be successful, but the older starters struggle with all aspects, and that is to junior level here. If you really think any late starter could make it at intercounty level then you are deluded.
For most intercounty footballers, from a very early age they will have been soloing the football, kicking it off a wall with both feet, catching etc for hours and hours each week, dummy soloing, throwing sidesteps etc, all on their own in their own garden. What particular skills is a rugby player developing at this age? If I was approached by a youngster who said he desperately wanted to play rugby, I would advise him to concentrate hard on his gym work!

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 04/12/2013 16:51:16    1520579

04/12/2013 16:51:16
Soma
Ormond, I am unsure why you came back to this topic or indeed why you are so bothered at the suggestions that the skills in rugby are basic. Like rowing, track cycling etc it still requires great athleticism, physique, dedication, bravery, can be great to watch, can produce real excitement and anyone can enjoy it. However like the other sports mentioned the skills required are quiet basic, albeit rugby does require some more skills than the others. I don't understand what point you are making on SBW, your sentence seems to be missing a word?
I don't really know why you contest the skill levels required when the examples are so numerous for why the skills are basic. Tom Court was an excellent shot putter, and at the age of 23 decided to take up the game of rugby to lose some weight. Within 18 months he was a professional rugby player, and has now played for the B&I Lions. Are you really suggesting that if he took up football, hurling, soccer etc at that age he would have become even decent?
As I live in the UK I get to see lots of players who try to take up football in adulthood, some of whom are fairly talented rugby players (inspired by Zinzan Brooke's story), and they really never make much progress. The local lads who come through from underage football can be successful, but the older starters struggle with all aspects, and that is to junior level here. If you really think any late starter could make it at intercounty level then you are deluded.
For most intercounty footballers, from a very early age they will have been soloing the football, kicking it off a wall with both feet, catching etc for hours and hours each week, dummy soloing, throwing sidesteps etc, all on their own in their own garden. What particular skills is a rugby player developing at this age? If I was approached by a youngster who said he desperately wanted to play rugby, I would advise him to concentrate hard on his gym work!
Im in this thread to highlight how rugby is a very skilful sport and not one that should have the reputation it has on this site. The attitude of some on here towards rugby, since before I joined and since, is pathetic and many here could learn a lot from other forums particularly rugby and soccer forums where GAA gets nothing like the abuse rugby gets here.
Court as a shot putter would have had huge skills and attributes that made him perfect to be a prop and he was rightly bumped up the ranks to the high level as quick as possible.
Lions point is irrelevant and only reason court is one is because he was on holidays where the Lions were playing they needed a prop and there wasn't enough time to send another player out. If game was day or two later court wouldn't be a lion.
Talented sportspeople generally can make it across any sport. Its in their genes. My brother took up gaelic football at 14 and by u16s he was on county squad. He dropped gaelic then as he was concentrating on running in national finals etc in athletics and playing with munster rugby underage sides. He could have made minor football for tipp if he had wanted to. even a year out of football at 17 he got a call out of the blue by tipp minors did he want a trial but he turned them down
skills a rugby player are learning would be passing off both hands, kicking grubbers/punts etc with backs doing so off both feet, throwing side steps, dummys. rugby players will also be learning rucking skills and then working on patterns of play in attack, defence
A gym monkey is no good in rugby if he doesn't have any skills like passing etc

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 04/12/2013 17:17:04    1520592

As far as Rugby goes, the Forwards (not all positions in the forwards) in my opinion require less skill - they need strength, intelligence and need to be well organised in the set piece. This leads to players like Court and Hayes picking it up relatively easily. The backs (and specialist positions like Hooker) on the other hand are extremely skillful and I bet you won't find as many players starting late and making it in the backline? Gaelic football is a sport that can greatly enhance a Rugby players skillset for certain things like catching and kicking so perhaps there can be some swap over in that regard, but the back play is extrememly skillful in rugby! I still think both Gaelic Football and Hurling are 2 of the hardest sports to pick up on a skill level, more so than rugby. Football is deemed easier by some people but I think this is down to so many people playing soccer making it an easier transition.

JMK (Kerry) - Posts: 273 - 04/12/2013 17:45:11    1520602

Ormond,
Ah well if you see your role as being to spread the gospel about rugby then I appreciate that you must stick with your viewpoint in a dogmatic fashion so wont continue to debate it with you after this post. Tom Court has over 30 caps for Ireland and has played in the final of Europes top club competition, even if you question his other achievements these ones are undebateable. You do love your anecdote, and I am sure your brother was talented, but Tipp U-16 football and the offer of a trial with the minors isn't quite the top level, even if it was the countys All-Ireland winning minor side. There s afterall quite a difference between youth level, where physicality and athleticism is an advantage, and adult level where these qualities, along with excellent command of many of the skills, are a prerequisite!
Talented sportspeople can not make it across any sport, its a ridiculous claim. Devin Toner and Leo Cullen, for example, would be unlikely to make even average soccer players! Having watched many rugby players using a soccer ball to warm down after games, I can say this with confidence about most rugby players. I wont be responding now that I know you must stick to your opinion regardless of the facts presented, so debate is pointless, but please do tell me what 'huge skills' a shot putter has that are perfect for being a prop that do not just constitute physical attributes (we have decided previously that a physical attribute is not a skill). Yes a gym monkey is little use if he doesn't have the skills, but as Tom Court and many others have proven, these skills can be learned in a matter of months!

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 04/12/2013 18:18:48    1520619

04/12/2013 18:18:48
Soma
Ormond, Ah well if you see your role as being to spread the gospel about rugby then I appreciate that you must stick with your viewpoint in a dogmatic fashion so wont continue to debate it with you after this post. Tom Court has over 30 caps for Ireland and has played in the final of Europes top club competition, even if you question his other achievements these ones are undebateable. You do love your anecdote, and I am sure your brother was talented, but Tipp U-16 football and the offer of a trial with the minors isn't quite the top level, even if it was the countys All-Ireland winning minor side. There s afterall quite a difference between youth level, where physicality and athleticism is an advantage, and adult level where these qualities, along with excellent command of many of the skills, are a prerequisite!
Talented sportspeople can not make it across any sport, its a ridiculous claim. Devin Toner and Leo Cullen, for example, would be unlikely to make even average soccer players! Having watched many rugby players using a soccer ball to warm down after games, I can say this with confidence about most rugby players. I wont be responding now that I know you must stick to your opinion regardless of the facts presented, so debate is pointless, but please do tell me what 'huge skills' a shot putter has that are perfect for being a prop that do not just constitute physical attributes (we have decided previously that a physical attribute is not a skill). Yes a gym monkey is little use if he doesn't have the skills, but as Tom Court and many others have proven, these skills can be learned in a matter of months!
I said talented players and you bring up Devin Toner and Leo Cullen.....
My anecdote backs up my point but you have a tizz and are getting sulky at anything I point out...
I said talented sportspeople in one sport generally could make it across several sports.
Anyway Toner could have been a fantastic volleyball/basketball player with his size and his handling skills
Talanted people are often going to be talented at several sports due to their natural ability, flair, skills that are very good that are beneficial to multiple sports like hand eye co-ordination, balance etc
Plenty of shot putters with their huge work in strength, technique etc all become good props at pro level like tom court, aussie dale stevenson

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 04/12/2013 19:02:32    1520633

ormondbannerman
County: Clare
Posts: 6387

I agree with you that GAA doesn't get a hard time on Irish rugby forums and that some of the comments here about Rugby are wrong but i have seen so much worse on Irish soccer forums. There is a whole thread headlined 'GAA haters thread' and some of the stuff of it was terrible. You should open up your eyes if you think GAA people are the only ones knocking other sports.

RebelCork (Cork) - Posts: 789 - 04/12/2013 20:05:32    1520653

04/12/2013 20:05:32
RebelCork
ormondbannerman, I agree with you that GAA doesn't get a hard time on Irish rugby forums and that some of the comments here about Rugby are wrong but i have seen so much worse on Irish soccer forums. There is a whole thread headlined 'GAA haters thread' and some of the stuff of it was terrible. You should open up your eyes if you think GAA people are the only ones knocking other sports.
I don't go on soccer forums apart from the odd glance at soccer forum on boards so don't know...

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 04/12/2013 20:35:47    1520659

if people in the gaa hate rugby so much why have they offered them a free pass to use their stadiums to showcase their sport to the world?

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 04/12/2013 20:51:00    1520666

link

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 16/12/2013 21:03:22    1524399

16/12/2013 21:03:22
ormondbannerman
County: Clare
Posts: 6440

Is there no rugby forum for you to post on Ormo?

A69

Aido69 (Dublin) - Posts: 381 - 17/12/2013 11:32:38    1524457

Aido69
16/12/2013 21:03:22
ormondbannerman


Is there no rugby forum for you to post on Ormo?

A69 who is this ormo you speak of?
Why do you sign your username at the end when everyone can see who is posting already
I use rugby forums and GAA forums. Nothing wrong with using both to post on

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 17/12/2013 12:04:01    1524466

Ormo
Would it not make more sense to post about rugby on rugby sites where people would be interested.
You answer to the Ormo handle, it's easier to type on a phone and in Dublin shortening a name with an "o" or "er" is a term of endearment;-)

A69

Aido69 (Dublin) - Posts: 381 - 17/12/2013 12:38:12    1524481

17/12/2013 12:38:12
Aido69
Ormo
Would it not make more sense to post about rugby on rugby sites where people would be interested.
You answer to the Ormo handle, it's easier to type on a phone and in Dublin shortening a name with an "o" or "er" is a term of endearment;-)

A69 I post about rugby on other sites and there is plenty of people here on this site who are interested in rugby just like I am interested in hurling/gaelic football. You don't have to like one or the other.
Simply why not type Ormond and then I wouldn't complain but ormo is awful and doesn't make sense. if you want to shorten name and add an "o" or "er" call me "ormondo" or "ormonder" but "ormo" is horrible.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 17/12/2013 13:54:39    1524509

Ormond I have noticed a terrible trend in rugby for corrupting names to end them with an 'o'. Our captain Paulo gets subjected to it, managing a grand slam winning team wasn't enough to protect Deco from it, and even the greatest of them all, poor ol' Drico, had to suffer the ignominy of it all! In light of this, do you think we should reconsider hosting the whole thing completely to prevent more of these sorts coming to our shores and insulting our finest like yourself?

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 17/12/2013 14:25:35    1524524