Just take a look in the mirror breffni

flack (Dublin) - Posts: 1054 - 28/11/2013 16:50:59    1518854

ormond

you know full well I watch the games as we argue on the rugby thread so dont try pull that stuff.
its only natural is what im saying that the pace of the game has decreased.players now focus more on strength and not cardio fitness in rugby so it leads to more physicality and less running with ball in hand.also with the tv ref has massively changed how the pace has become slower,you know full well as anybody does that the moment any ball goes near the line they go upstairs to tv ref,its got to the stage you expect it even when its clear as day a try.last weekend was another prime example they now focus on stopping a try as he went up for one pass then looked for the previous pass it was getting almost like he was looking for an excuse to not give new zealand that last try.then you have in the middle of games if theres a roar from the crowd he goes up to see if it was any foul play

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 28/11/2013 17:12:31    1518870

flack
County: Dublin
Posts: 138

1518854 Just take a look in the mirror breffni

Had a look and I saw Football and Hurling fan who almost never criticises either sport.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12122 - 28/11/2013 17:18:34    1518879

Hill and Ormond if rugby keep going as is there will be no need for a ref on the pitch....just a TMO

witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 28/11/2013 17:22:07    1518884

Sorry breffni, I got you mixed up with royaldunne.

flack (Dublin) - Posts: 1054 - 28/11/2013 17:55:07    1518904

28/11/2013 17:12:31
hill16no1man
ormond, you know full well I watch the games as we argue on the rugby thread so dont try pull that stuff.
its only natural is what im saying that the pace of the game has decreased.players now focus more on strength and not cardio fitness in rugby so it leads to more physicality and less running with ball in hand.also with the tv ref has massively changed how the pace has become slower,you know full well as anybody does that the moment any ball goes near the line they go upstairs to tv ref,its got to the stage you expect it even when its clear as day a try.last weekend was another prime example they now focus on stopping a try as he went up for one pass then looked for the previous pass it was getting almost like he was looking for an excuse to not give new zealand that last try.then you have in the middle of games if theres a roar from the crowd he goes up to see if it was any foul play
With professionalism rugby has increased in pace. Strength work has increased and there is way more and better coaching these days but there is no proof the game has slowed down only the opposite.
link

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 28/11/2013 18:00:43    1518907

what do the likes of Messi,Defoe,Hoolahan,wright-philips, lennon have in common with ferninand,vidic,ibra,ronaldo in terms of stature? NOTHING, hence why i said anyone can play soccer which is why it has such high playing numbers.

RebelCork (Cork) - Posts: 789 - 28/11/2013 18:05:42    1518912

ormond

I dont need proof you can say it with your own eyes,the game stops way more due the tv ref.before he was there the ref made a decision and got on with it simple as,now the ref is nearly a middle man.
if you increase your body size like rugby players have done you slow down on other areas its science,therefore you produce players like paul o connell and donacha o callaghan who do a job like they do on the pitch but can barely put one leg in front of the other when trying to run they almost fall over themselves

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 28/11/2013 21:02:52    1518970

28/11/2013 21:02:52
hill16no1man
Ormond, I dont need proof you can say it with your own eyes,the game stops way more due the tv ref.before he was there the ref made a decision and got on with it simple as,now the ref is nearly a middle man.
if you increase your body size like rugby players have done you slow down on other areas its science,therefore you produce players like paul o connell and donacha o callaghan who do a job like they do on the pitch but can barely put one leg in front of the other when trying to run they almost fall over themselves the game does stop a bit more but you are 100% wrong when you say the ref is a middleman. Video ref can only be used in certain situations and this role has been expanded in a trial for this season.
Again you are talking ubbish when you say about POC and DOC and falling over themselves. Simply untrue. They usually go to ground with ball in hand as its their role to carry mainly on slow ball or slow ball that is trying to be turned to fast ball and its left to the backrow and other second rows or backs to carry fast ball

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 28/11/2013 21:31:19    1518977

Ormondbannerman
More at underage do but they dwarf our figures at the moment at adult level but we are increasing year on year our figures.
Its only recently that we have had more playing than new Zealand and even now we just have more than them but not a lot.
anyway if it was simply by numbers then south Africa and england would have won every world cup and numbers mean a bit but its how you deal with what you have and NZ have the best coaches(why do you think so many coaches in Ireland in provinces, irish set up are from nz)
Ormond you have a strange interpretation of statistics. Using latest IRB figures, New Zealand have 27,374 adult male rugby players, which "dwarfs" the 25,440 in Ireland. However Ireland have a total of 153,080 rugby players, which is "not a lot" more than the 137,835 in New Zealand? Similar to your "of course they are better because of their resources/resources are not the decisive factor" approach you seem all mixed up here as well.
Regarding your assessment that the skills in rugby are not basic, that this was only true in the amateur era etc, though this may be your opinion I think you are wrong, as do a large number of rugby commentators (especially on the 2nd point). I presented an example to you of why the skills in rugby can be considered basic, as lads can pick up a rugby ball for the first time when 17/18 and be playing at the very top level within 5 years. I think this demonstrates the skills are fairly basic, though of course there still are some skills involved. There is no other sport I can think of where this is possible, because you would not be able to develop the necessary skill set in such a short time. As for the game being more skillful now than in the amateur era, many rugby observers say the exact oposite. They say skill has been replaced by power, and that the game is now largely a war of attrition, with the smaller, quicker more skillful players replaced by big, agressive athletes. There is a reason why the Wales try against the Barbarians is shown again and again on tv even though it is from the 70's, and that is because there are hardly any modern examples of such skill. You may think being able to bench press a small car is a great skill, where as I suggest it is a skill but a basic one.
Anyway, this thread is about Ireland hopefully one day hosting the rugby world cup, probably best if we stick to that theme.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 29/11/2013 11:39:27    1519054

29/11/2013 11:39:27
Soma
Ormond you have a strange interpretation of statistics. Using latest IRB figures, New Zealand have 27,374 adult male rugby players, which "dwarfs" the 25,440 in Ireland. However Ireland have a total of 153,080 rugby players, which is "not a lot" more than the 137,835 in New Zealand? Similar to your "of course they are better because of their resources/resources are not the decisive factor" approach you seem all mixed up here as well.
Regarding your assessment that the skills in rugby are not basic, that this was only true in the amateur era etc, though this may be your opinion I think you are wrong, as do a large number of rugby commentators (especially on the 2nd point). I presented an example to you of why the skills in rugby can be considered basic, as lads can pick up a rugby ball for the first time when 17/18 and be playing at the very top level within 5 years. I think this demonstrates the skills are fairly basic, though of course there still are some skills involved. There is no other sport I can think of where this is possible, because you would not be able to develop the necessary skill set in such a short time. As for the game being more skillful now than in the amateur era, many rugby observers say the exact oposite. They say skill has been replaced by power, and that the game is now largely a war of attrition, with the smaller, quicker more skillful players replaced by big, agressive athletes. There is a reason why the Wales try against the Barbarians is shown again and again on tv even though it is from the 70's, and that is because there are hardly any modern examples of such skill. You may think being able to bench press a small car is a great skill, where as I suggest it is a skill but a basic one.
Anyway, this thread is about Ireland hopefully one day hosting the rugby world cup, probably best if we stick to that theme.
My points still stand and I should have referred to adult professional players as their figures their dwarf ours.
That figure discounts the tens of thousands of new Zealanders registered abroad all over the world so the true new Zealand figure is much higher. Thousands of new Zealanders are recruited every year to play club rugby in Europe and japan.
Those who have reached the top upon taking up the sport in their late teens etc generally have been all rounders and at the top of their game in other sports or genetic freaks taking up rugby for the first time. John Hayes is case in point, very few can or could physically do some of the things he has done in the pitch
Rugby is so much more than other sports related to physical capabilities of people and as people only physically mature in late teens, early 20s that is why you see older people able to go far taking up rugby late like soccer, hurling, basketball etc you can play at the elite level at 16/17 not the case in rugby. Physical nature of game doesn't allow it with only some exceptions
If you watch games you can see the skills have improved its just the defences with modern practices are easier to get on top and while there was a focus on the bigger player over the more skilled for a considerable period that is now changing and beliefs have changed in Ireland especially and the more skilled players are getting through as its easier to build a player with the skills physically up to level of top grade rugby than to build a player who has physical attributes but not the skills.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 29/11/2013 12:33:17    1519075

ormond

if you read what I said you would know THEY DO A JOB LIKE THEY DO was my words.I know thats there job but it doesnt hide the fact that neither could make a 14 yard burst for the line if the oppurtunity presented itself.surely a professional sportsperson in a so called atheltic game should be able to do that at the least is my point

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 29/11/2013 14:12:40    1519113

29/11/2013 14:12:40
hill16no1man
ormond, if you read what I said you would know THEY DO A JOB LIKE THEY DO was my words.I know thats there job but it doesnt hide the fact that neither could make a 14 yard burst for the line if the oppurtunity presented itself.surely a professional sportsperson in a so called atheltic game should be able to do that at the least is my point They could but they are generally never in the position to do so as they are normally stuck in a ruck etc providing the platform for backrows/outside backs to get the scores and make those bursts you are referring t
Donnacha O Callaghan has got trys from 50+ metres before, 06 v Leicester, and Donnacha O Callaghan is regarded very highly for his huge fitness levels and ability to make 14 yard bursts all throughout the game but maybe not carrying ball but ttracking back to make tackles, hit a ruck that needs to be hit or else a score will be conceded etc

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 29/11/2013 14:29:06    1519117

Ormond I can not stay responding to you because I get the feeling you will continue to come back with ridiculous stats and ideas made up in your head, and you change stance so often to suit your argument its hard to figure out your views. There are not tens of thousands of New Zealanders playing overseas, or thousands recruited yearly abroad. They do have more playing abroad than other nations because it is the countrys number 1 sport and so attracts the best sportsmen over there. However I would say there are less than 50 professional NZ rugby players in ireland, scotland, wales and italy. That leaves quite alot to fit into the other countries using your figures!
As for the rest of your post, I get the impression you may be caught up in some of the rugby hype in the various media and forming your opinions from that. Most intercounty hurlers and footballers dont play senior now until they are 21 as they lack the physique and skill set necessary to compete any earlier. This does not mean id fancy my chances lining out for a top hurlin team, even at club level, if I took up the sport aged 16. Like all other highly skilled sports, unless you have been playing from a young age you will simply never develop the skills required. As rugbys skills are more basic, you can develop most of the skills in a couple of years. I attend professional club rugby games regularly here and know that most time is spent working on gameplay patterns, physique and recovery, with a very minor amount of time spent on skills.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 29/11/2013 15:32:21    1519137

29/11/2013 15:32:21 Soma
Ormond I can not stay responding to you because I get the feeling you will continue to come back with ridiculous stats and ideas made up in your head, and you change stance so often to suit your argument its hard to figure out your views. There are not tens of thousands of New Zealanders playing overseas, or thousands recruited yearly abroad. They do have more playing abroad than other nations because it is the countrys number 1 sport and so attracts the best sportsmen over there. However I would say there are less than 50 professional NZ rugby players in ireland, scotland, wales and italy. That leaves quite alot to fit into the other countries using your figures!
As for the rest of your post, I get the impression you may be caught up in some of the rugby hype in the various media and forming your opinions from that. Most intercounty hurlers and footballers dont play senior now until they are 21 as they lack the physique and skill set necessary to compete any earlier. This does not mean id fancy my chances lining out for a top hurlin team, even at club level, if I took up the sport aged 16. Like all other highly skilled sports, unless you have been playing from a young age you will simply never develop the skills required. As rugbys skills are more basic, you can develop most of the skills in a couple of years. I attend professional club rugby games regularly here and know that most time is spent working on gameplay patterns, physique and recovery, with a very minor amount of time spent on skills.
There is thousands of players from new Zealand playing here in Europe and elsewhere including Japan especially in the lower levels in England and france as well as japan.
Im not getting lost in any hype. I totally understand whats going on. Rugby skills are highly technical and what are all the skills that you suppose can be learned in such a short time?
in most clubs it is not patterns, physique that most time is spent on and skills are covered but it depends on time of the season. pre season will focus on skills and fitness with patterns focused on season
You just have to look at junior and senior clubs and you will see a considerable number of young and some not so young new Zealanders who are here for rugby. Sam Nash who had played at highest club level in Auckland, played last season with us and now playing at 4th tier of English rugby

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 29/11/2013 19:23:14    1519195

The actual figures show there are 300 NZ rugby players playing abroad professionally, I know you will come up with some other wild proposal but this is the reality. Whilst there are a number of Kiwi's dotted here and there throughout our clubs, really they make up a small number. There are a number of Irish players playing rugby in England, Australia, New Zealand etc but again the figures are quite small and can be largely discounted when trying to determine the overall picture.

You are right that rugby teams concentrate on skills pre-season and patterns during the season, the opposite of almost all other sports. Footballers, hurlers, soccer players etc establish a base fitness and then hone their skills through the season, as this is what must be done to keep the skills and improve on them. If you play a sport with more basic skills, there is no need to concentrate on them throughout the season. Maybe the reason we can not agree on this is because we have differing opinions on what we consider a skill - I would suggest a skill is something difficult to perform, that must be learned but that in theory could be performed by a person of any size (within reason) where as you may believe a skill is something only someone of over 2 metres in height or 18 stone could perform. That to me is a physical feat, not a skill.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 29/11/2013 20:07:33    1519203

29/11/2013 20:07:33 Soma
The actual figures show there are 300 NZ rugby players playing abroad professionally, I know you will come up with some other wild proposal but this is the reality. Whilst there are a number of Kiwi's dotted here and there throughout our clubs, really they make up a small number. There are a number of Irish players playing rugby in England, Australia, New Zealand etc but again the figures are quite small and can be largely discounted when trying to determine the overall picture.
You are right that rugby teams concentrate on skills pre-season and patterns during the season, the opposite of almost all other sports. Footballers, hurlers, soccer players etc establish a base fitness and then hone their skills through the season, as this is what must be done to keep the skills and improve on them. If you play a sport with more basic skills, there is no need to concentrate on them throughout the season. Maybe the reason we can not agree on this is because we have differing opinions on what we consider a skill - I would suggest a skill is something difficult to perform, that must be learned but that in theory could be performed by a person of any size (within reason) where as you may believe a skill is something only someone of over 2 metres in height or 18 stone could perform. That to me is a physical feat, not a skill.
They make up a decent number much more than 300 if you include players who are getting a full wage from semi pro rugby levels like division 1A rugby and are pro.
300? More than that. proof please?
That isn't the opposite of most sports and skills are concentrated on in season in every session but in the main skills dominated situations with skills only concentrated on done in pre season. In-season skills work is done but not concentrated on and the skills work will be incorporated into more match related scenario's/situations.
You have totally misunderstood what I said if you believe I said anything about a skill only something a person you describe can do
A skill is not simply something difficult it is the ability to do something well, the expertise to do something.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 29/11/2013 20:52:25    1519221

After all your crazy figures in this thread it is very amusing that you would ask for proof of mine but anyway, the 2012 New Zealand Almanack lists the number of rugby players from that country playing abroad professionally at approximately 300. The figures you quote are outlandish and ridiculous, but if I was to read for example the irish broadsheets and very few other sources I would probably believe such inaccuracies also. The truth is that more people play soccer in New Zealand than rugby union, but at the moment rugby still gets first call on the more talented sportsmen generally, which is different to most other nations. Their rugby league team is in the world cup final today and you should watch that as most of the country's most skillful ball players will be on show at it.

We simply wont agree on what constitutes a skill I feel so probably best to leave that behind us, though I would still suggest that the length of time required to learn it is a good barometer and you have been unable to give me an example of anyone in any other top sport who can become a top professional within a few years of first beginning it.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 30/11/2013 12:02:59    1519271

30/11/2013 12:02:59
Soma
After all your crazy figures in this thread it is very amusing that you would ask for proof of mine but anyway, the 2012 New Zealand Almanack lists the number of rugby players from that country playing abroad professionally at approximately 300. The figures you quote are outlandish and ridiculous, but if I was to read for example the irish broadsheets and very few other sources I would probably believe such inaccuracies also. The truth is that more people play soccer in New Zealand than rugby union, but at the moment rugby still gets first call on the more talented sportsmen generally, which is different to most other nations. Their rugby league team is in the world cup final today and you should watch that as most of the country's most skillful ball players will be on show at it.
We simply wont agree on what constitutes a skill I feel so probably best to leave that behind us, though I would still suggest that the length of time required to learn it is a good barometer and you have been unable to give me an example of anyone in any other top sport who can become a top professional within a few years of first beginning it.
That figure only covers the top pro sides. There is huge numbers playing at amateur and semi pro level like in the All Ireland League and Junior Leagues in each of the provinces and are getting a very decent wage, 15000-20000 in some cases.
We have had NZrs, Aussies etc getting 400/week etc in the past
Soccer does have big numbers in NZ like all countries as its easier to play both in practice and messing around as well as physically
And no rugby league in New Zealand doesn't have the countrys most skilful players. It has some skilful players but carter, nonu, read all top most skilled players
OK here's just one person off top of my head who became top pro in a sport within few years of taking it up - Rebecca romero. she was an Olympic rower winning a silver in Athens in 2004, she quit rowing in 2005 and by Beijing was competing in track cycling where she won a gold

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/12/2013 17:51:17    1520218

Soma any half decent athlete would have the skills of Gaelic football mastered with in weeks ,it is the most basic of all field sports that is not to say its not good just very basic.

tinrylandman (Carlow) - Posts: 387 - 03/12/2013 18:21:15    1520228