Are supporters of this 'split' not taking into account the potential fall off in attendances this would cause? How would the GAA cope with this? I agree that maybe if Dublin were winning the AI year in year out that maybe we should look at it again. Until then, and unless the GAA can get by without the huge financial input from Dublin, forget about it!

Someone referred to Colm O'Rourke as 'top GAA pundit' earlier, give me a break! Himself and his peers really need to apply their rational thinking to the present state of Meath football, no split in Dublin is going to improve the lack of football talent by the Boyne!

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8592 - 04/03/2013 15:21:16    1342505

realdub, again, that is not a good enough reason to continue with an unfair system though is it? I actually dont think they would suffer as much as people say. They would have 2 teams, each of which could fill croker. That means twice as many dublin games. So they might have 60,000 instead of a full house, getting 60,000 twice is still a bigger money spinner. At the end of the day, mayo and donegal could have filled croke park twice over for their final, so to say there would be a big drop off in support, when there is still 600,000 people and the place is in their back garden, isnt really correct. Also, you are not factoring in the potential increase in gaa popularity this could generate within the county. If the county was split, more guys would get to play top level football, that in turn would get more people involved, which is something I think many are not considering on this point. The players are there, they have to be. As an experiment it would be interesting to see if the first 25 of the current dublin squad were removed from the county and the clubs had to make do without them, what kind of a team would come through. I think they would produce a team that would be 90% as good in 5 years, and that is taking out the best of the best from all over the county.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 04/03/2013 16:18:02    1342566

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6050

1342483
MesAmis, your reference to me being glib, in light of your attitude on this entire thread, is laughable. Particularly when you continually ask the question 'where is east dublin?' Where is the east of anything mesamis? The fact that I already stated the split could be done with regard to population eliminates the point you seem to think you have. The reality is you are trying to hide behind the details to avoid the broader issue. You seem to think that the colloquialisms that exist within dublin as regards the 'northside' and 'southside' means that there is no east dublin, but how can there not be an east side of dublin? Can you explain that please? Consideringthat by definition there is an east of everything, your explanation should make for interesting reading.
The real overriding question is this, do you think one team should have twice as many to choose from than the next highest team? Now of course you can and will wheel out the leitrim example, but that ignores, on purpose in my opinion, the difference in scale of the examples. The reality is no team should have 1.27 million, when the mean for everyone else is 130,000. The gulf is just too big. I mean when you cut away all the waffle, which you seem intent on dwelling on, the reality is that one county has 10 times the mean of everyone else, and that just isnt right.
The fact that you time and again, refuse to assume for arguments sake that a split can be done fairly, indicates to me that your intention isnt to debate the argument, but to nullify it. I mean the line you are taking is 'set out exactly the split or we cant debate the issue'. Glib you say?

Then explain what areas are to be encompassed in East Dublin? My point is that a lot of those areas that you will choice would be the ones that mostly identify themselves as Northsiders or southsiders. A basic knowledge of Dublin would tell you that. No one considers themselves to be from east Dublin.

A debate on this issue cannot take place until (a) you demostrate that it is neccesary - thus far all you have to go on is your fantasy that Dublin are going to win all the All-Irelands in football, hurling, Ladies football and camogie forever more unless the county is split. You have ZERO evidence to support your theory. Again I'll ask you, seeing as you have failed to answer it, how many All-Ireland's in each code do you expect Dublin to win over, for example, the next decade?

and (b) that it can be done in a fair manner, again you fail to explain how this split will work on a population/geographical bases. If you want people to debate something as radical and unatural as this then i'm afraid that you'll have to put a little bit more though into your argument.

A debate can always be had Master, however you have to explain yourself an awful lot better than you've done so far in this thread.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13709 - 04/03/2013 16:28:23    1342576

The Master, you can forget about your 60,000 or anything like it, it would take a generation or two for this to be accepted as the norm, could the GAA cope with the loss in the meantime in today's climate? I doubt it!

Furthermore, if any counties are benefiting from the rising population it would be Meath and Kildare, not just Dublin! I see both sides but as a Dub, it would be a disaster for me personally and for any GAA Dub I know, which is a lot!

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8592 - 04/03/2013 16:29:41    1342579

MesAmis, whether they class themselves as 'northsiders' or 'southsiders' is insignificant. Similarly, a guy from ballaghaderreen might consider himself to be from county roscommon, but football-wise they will be playing for mayo. The same thing applies here.


A debate on this issue cannot take place until (a) you demostrate that it is neccesary - thus far all you have to go on is your fantasy that Dublin are going to win all the All-Irelands in football, hurling, Ladies football and camogie forever more unless the county is split. You have ZERO evidence to support your theory. Again I'll ask you, seeing as you have failed to answer it, how many All-Ireland's in each code do you expect Dublin to win over, for example, the next decade?

and (b) that it can be done in a fair manner, again you fail to explain how this split will work on a population/geographical bases. If you want people to debate something as radical and unatural as this then i'm afraid that you'll have to put a little bit more though into your argument.


Well first off, surely these things are part of the debate? You refuse to engage in them until I line out the exact split of the dublin landscape, maybe I should include a list of eligible players and potential new ones while Im at it. It is a ridiculous stance to take. Am I claiming to have the formula dublin need to use? Not at all. So for you to spend the entirity of this thread demanding these specifics from me, is ridiculous, and actually quite facetious. It is like the company constructing a road telling the gardai that unless they can tell them exactly how to fix an accident blackspot, they wont do it. It isnt my job to do that, but we all know it could easily be done. Furthermore, you dont need to know how to fix that road to know that it needs to be fixed.

Also, at no point did I say that dublin were going to win a load of all-irelands. In fact, I stated several times that there is a bigger picture that silverware cannot be the only measure of. A bounce of a ball, or a poor refereeing decision can totally change that landscape.
The point is they have the capability to support 2 successful teams. Dublin gaa people talk about how they are for promoting gaa in their county, well how better to do it than by doubling the amount of gaa available for those in that county? With over 600,000 people available to each team, and the mean being 130,000, it is not like they are being made weaker than their opponents in doing so. So really, the question is, what actual reasons do you have that say it shouldnt happen?

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 04/03/2013 17:47:32    1342659

realdub
The Master, you can forget about your 60,000 or anything like it, it would take a generation or two for this to be accepted as the norm, could the GAA cope with the loss in the meantime in today's climate? I doubt it!

Why? Over 600,000 people and they couldnt get a decent crowd at a game? Other counties have a fraction of that and still manage decent crowds.


Furthermore, if any counties are benefiting from the rising population it would be Meath and Kildare, not just Dublin! I see both sides but as a Dub, it would be a disaster for me personally and for any GAA Dub I know, which is a lot!

True, but their overall population is not rising to the levels the dublin population is. Also, why would it be a disaster?

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 04/03/2013 17:51:55    1342666

It would be a disaster in the sense that the fans would initially face a huge identity crisis. Look, we all know how the GAA works, and survives, it's totally down to county borders and county pride, tribalism if you like, it would be taking from the fundamentals!

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8592 - 04/03/2013 18:07:16    1342680

Also, the population of Meath and Kildare IS rising faster than Dublin's apparently, according to recent stats.

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8592 - 04/03/2013 18:09:34    1342685

realdub
County: Dublin
Posts: 889

Also, the population of Meath and Kildare IS rising faster than Dublin's apparently, according to recent stats.

Maybe in a few years time people will be looking to split Meath and Kildare so.

Natives and those of Dublin parentage would be one way of going about dividing things.

I'd say O'Rourke can't wait to write an article about that...

if_in_doubt (Kildare) - Posts: 3685 - 04/03/2013 18:14:59    1342688

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6056

1342659
MesAmis, whether they class themselves as 'northsiders' or 'southsiders' is insignificant. Similarly, a guy from ballaghaderreen might consider himself to be from county roscommon, but football-wise they will be playing for mayo. The same thing applies here.

Well first off, surely these things are part of the debate? You refuse to engage in them until I line out the exact split of the dublin landscape, maybe I should include a list of eligible players and potential new ones while Im at it. It is a ridiculous stance to take. Am I claiming to have the formula dublin need to use? Not at all. So for you to spend the entirity of this thread demanding these specifics from me, is ridiculous, and actually quite facetious. It is like the company constructing a road telling the gardai that unless they can tell them exactly how to fix an accident blackspot, they wont do it. It isnt my job to do that, but we all know it could easily be done. Furthermore, you dont need to know how to fix that road to know that it needs to be fixed.

Also, at no point did I say that dublin were going to win a load of all-irelands. In fact, I stated several times that there is a bigger picture that silverware cannot be the only measure of. A bounce of a ball, or a poor refereeing decision can totally change that landscape.
The point is they have the capability to support 2 successful teams. Dublin gaa people talk about how they are for promoting gaa in their county, well how better to do it than by doubling the amount of gaa available for those in that county? With over 600,000 people available to each team, and the mean being 130,000, it is not like they are being made weaker than their opponents in doing so. So really, the question is, what actual reasons do you have that say it shouldnt happen?

Where somewhere considers themselves to be from is extremely important! Do you know anything about the GAA at all man? Tribalism and identity is of paramount importance.

I noticed that you seem to have climbed down from your ludicrous idea of four teams in Dublin to just the two. Well at leasts that's some progress.

It is vitally important that you do explain specifics. You're one of the only people advocating this scheme so you should be able to defend it. You surely knew when you started putting forward this idea that naturally people would ask you questions about it. What do you just expect people to agree with you and not question anything you say? That's a strange viewpoint to have in fairness to you.

So you don't expect Dublin to win all the All-Ireland's in football, hurling, Ladies Football and Camogie? If we're not going to dominate and ruin football, hurling and camogie forever more then why exactly do you want to split the county? If you don't think Dublin as a whole are going to be successful how are we to believe you when you say tearing the county in two would be a success? You're chopping and changing your argument now and not making much sense if I'm honest.

You don't Dublin as a county will be successful but you somehow think that Dublin split in two will defo be!

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13709 - 04/03/2013 18:24:02    1342697

First off someone here said that O'Rourke was "one of the most repsected pundits" in the country. I strongly disagree.

Secondly, his article is absolute sheafoid. He seems to argue for the division of Dublin into smaller units because Dublin GAA is now so well organized it looks set to rule Leinster football for the foreseeable future. If that was sufficient basis for dividing up a county in the GAA world Kerry and Kilkenny would have been splintered into about a dozen pieces by now.

O'Rourke is nothing but a Meath man having a whinge at Dublin's success.

Footballers making a living in Dublin but returning to their home counties is nothing new. And considering the (relative) road improvements it's never been easier.

Much ado about nothing.

festinog (Galway) - Posts: 3097 - 04/03/2013 18:46:45    1342727

As I said earlier, I am against splitting Dublin. People associate themselves with the Dublin identity and for now I believe it should be left untouched.

However, (and I defer to Dublin GAA people on this one), maybe more could be made of the population there in terms of club GAA. I notice that there are large areas of the capital that are possibly underserved by the GAA..for example, is there not only one club in places like Clondalkin (Round Towers)? One in Finglas? is there any club in places like Ballyfermot? Walkinstown?

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 04/03/2013 21:49:53    1342918

The master,
you obviously care more about the Dubs than your own county judging by your posts on your own county forum compared to Dubs related topics.

AthCliath (Dublin) - Posts: 4347 - 04/03/2013 21:52:47    1342922

bennybunny
County: Cork
Posts: 1620

However, (and I defer to Dublin GAA people on this one), maybe more could be made of the population there in terms of club GAA. I notice that there are large areas of the capital that are possibly underserved by the GAA..for example, is there not only one club in places like Clondalkin (Round Towers)? One in Finglas? is there any club in places like Ballyfermot? Walkinstown?

Towers the only Clondalkin club.

2 clubs in Ballyfermot - De La Salle and Liffey Gaels

Erin's Isle in Finglas

Walkinstown would be served by James' Gaels, Robert Emmets (?) and Crumlin. It's a quite a small are in fairness.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13709 - 05/03/2013 09:28:18    1342963

bennybunny
County: Cork
Posts: 1620

1342918
As I said earlier, I am against splitting Dublin. People associate themselves with the Dublin identity and for now I believe it should be left untouched.

However, (and I defer to Dublin GAA people on this one), maybe more could be made of the population there in terms of club GAA. I notice that there are large areas of the capital that are possibly underserved by the GAA..for example, is there not only one club in places like Clondalkin (Round Towers)? One in Finglas? is there any club in places like Ballyfermot? Walkinstown?

------------------------------------------------

Bennybunny this is actually the real issue and something that will have to be addressed by the Dublin GAA. Some of the catchment areas are now too big numbers wise for the clubs and more clubs would be needed. But as you can imagine this is very sensitive!

witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 05/03/2013 09:32:37    1342965

realdub, again that isnt a reason good enough to excuse one team having twice the potential as their nearest rival, and 10 times the potential of the mean. Can I say mayo would have a better identity if we joined up with kerry? Maybe we can claim all their all-irelands as our own also? Obviously that isnt a good enough reason to allow that to happen, and the same applies here.

MesAmis, have you found east on the map yet? It was such a sticking point for you previously. Yes I was going with 4 teams off the numbers in o'rourkes article, I have since seen that 2/3 teams is more reasonable. The fact is though, we could split them into east and west just as easily as north and south. Hopefully that doesnt take you another 5 pages to get your head around.
As regards changing my argument, I have changed nothing apart from the above. You keep making points about winning all-irelands, yet I have stated several times that there is more to it than that, and that you have to look at the bigger picture. Yes dublin might not win another all ireland, but they have the potential to do so, far more than everyone else. Even if they were split in half, both teams would have as much potential as anyone else.
Also, you never answered my question. I dont see why I should answer any more of yours, when you refuse to even attempt to answer mine. I have purposely jumped through all the hoops you have tried to put in front of me, because I know that when it boils down to it, your argument has no basis. I mean 'there is no east side of dublin'; utter tripe.
At least realdub is giving it an honest effort, and I respect his views because of it

AthCliath, so what?

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 05/03/2013 10:26:55    1343006

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6059


AthCliath, so what?

No big deal, just noticed certain type of posters dont really bother with their own counties , more facinated with the Dubs.
its ok the master ,i can understand the facination.

AthCliath (Dublin) - Posts: 4347 - 05/03/2013 10:48:04    1343025

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 6059

MesAmis, have you found east on the map yet? It was such a sticking point for you previously. Yes I was going with 4 teams off the numbers in o'rourkes article, I have since seen that 2/3 teams is more reasonable. The fact is though, we could split them into east and west just as easily as north and south. Hopefully that doesnt take you another 5 pages to get your head around.
As regards changing my argument, I have changed nothing apart from the above. You keep making points about winning all-irelands, yet I have stated several times that there is more to it than that, and that you have to look at the bigger picture. Yes dublin might not win another all ireland, but they have the potential to do so, far more than everyone else. Even if they were split in half, both teams would have as much potential as anyone else.
Also, you never answered my question. I dont see why I should answer any more of yours, when you refuse to even attempt to answer mine. I have purposely jumped through all the hoops you have tried to put in front of me, because I know that when it boils down to it, your argument has no basis. I mean 'there is no east side of dublin'; utter tripe.
At least realdub is giving it an honest effort, and I respect his views because of it

Seriously man, what did you expect? You came on here with your idea of splitting an entire county but didn't bother to think about how you'd do that. You were then asked a few simple questions about how your split would work but have completely and utterly failed to answer them.

Is it that you can't answer my questions I suppose?

Again I'll ask you why are we being split? You're trying to tell me my argument has no basis but yet you are the one who has NO argument. No reason given yet as to why we need to be split. Not one piece of evidence that there is any need for Dublin to be split. First it was that we'd dominate but now you claim that we probably won't but we still need to be split! Ludicrous, even for you Master!

You say you've jumped through hoops on this thread? Laughable man. You've failed to answer a single simple question adequately. You put forward a ridiculous scheme and couldn't, and can't, answer the 2 simplest questions. WHY? HOW?

Why and how? The 2 most basic things that YOU need to understand before YOU can begin to try and convince people of anything. You obviously don't know why you want this to happen or how you would implement it.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13709 - 05/03/2013 10:54:19    1343030

I wish people advocating a split actually spent some time in examining the geographical spread of clubs, their numbers and how it this was to be achieved. We don't want a parish by parish, street by street breakdown just a general idea how it could be done.
First of all we are realistically only talking about Mens Gaelic Football here, when someone like Colm O'Rourke talks GAA he is only talking Gaelic Football because thta is all he sees. There is no justification to split hurling but both are controlled by the same organisation. Neither Camogie or Ladies football would even vote or entertain it as they are not GAA members nor do they dominate their respective sports.

Maybe when Dublin are going for 5 in row in each code it could be looked at.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4896 - 05/03/2013 11:05:20    1343044

Right - have followed the Beelzedub model and have come up with a figure for the pool of players available to Antrim to pick from.

Population of Co Antrim = 616,384
Population of those 16-35 (closest age groups who would actively be playing Senior Football) = 213,766 (this figure is taken from Belfast and Northern regions so isn't completely accurate for Antrim as there are areas in both Belfast and Northern which are not in Antrim)
Population of males in the North = 49% therefore approx 104,746 males aged 16-35
In the North approx 25% call themselves Irish so it is this group who are most likely to be involved in the GAA so for Antrim if we apply this we get 26,187 Irish males in the active age group.
59% of males in NI are obese or overweight so more than likely not going to be bothered going running round a field after a ball - if we apply this to the last figure for Antrim we then have 10,736
Approx 10% of population on DLA so again they won't want to blow their cover and get videoed getting stuck in at a match. There may be cross over in this 10% with the 59% of obese people but as approx will reduce the 10,736 by 10% to get 9,663.

So now we are down to 9,663 of a population who are still eligible for the County football team.

However, when it comes to picking players you then have to factor in the favourtism shown to city teams so if we look at the population of Belfast in ration to Co Antrim it makes up around 60% (hard to get exact figure as parts of Belfast in Co Down) so again apply this to the mix and the county team has approx 5,798 people to pick from and thats not even factoring in what standard they are. If you remove the duds then you are porbably down to a few hundred.

With all the stats looked at then I think it explains why we do as well as we do.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 05/03/2013 11:09:37    1343051