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Replying To tearintom: "But club players will vote generally on what's best for their club.
So what difference is it going to make them having their own group?
If a player doesn't engage within their own club then what's the odds theyre going to engage in some broader group?
The avenue is there for players to put their voice out there, if they choose not to that's on them, if the club don't engage with them, that's on the club.
If a player won't engage within his own club he isn't going to engage outside of it.
To be honest it takes more than just players to run a championship, should there be a committee of club manager/coaches, a committee of referees etc etc." My feelings would be roughly along the same lines.
I won't claim that all players in my own club engage with the process, but those that want to certainly have the opportunity to do so, and are certainly listened to.
Won't make a big deal of this, but formertownie even said in his own post that even if he'd been asked such things during his playing days, he probably wouldn't have engaged anyway. Much the same would probably apply across the board - if a player isn't going to speak up through his club, he's probably not going to speak up through a players' group either.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2257 - 11/01/2024 11:57:19
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Replying To Pikeman96: "My feelings would be roughly along the same lines.
I won't claim that all players in my own club engage with the process, but those that want to certainly have the opportunity to do so, and are certainly listened to.
Won't make a big deal of this, but formertownie even said in his own post that even if he'd been asked such things during his playing days, he probably wouldn't have engaged anyway. Much the same would probably apply across the board - if a player isn't going to speak up through his club, he's probably not going to speak up through a players' group either." No possibly they wont .
But in a group where all are equal they may be more inclined to talk and hope they would nt be ridiculed. Probably strong saying ridiculed . But young men or women won't know the in and outs of how things run as we did nt when we were young and possibly still dont truth be told that's why I ask the questions .
But among their peers they can relax and chat and possibly come up with something that works .
Being a selection from all clubs represented and all levels I think no one clubs agenda or preference would get through as too many clubs represented.
Surely they have as much right to have their say as an indivual group as much as any other represented group .
Again all these groups and committes cccc etc not clubs are made up of club members who can also put motions through their clubs . . Where players have only one choice .
We need the players as much as the others that run it.
I would just like to hear the club players as a whole opinion on the structures and not through clubs or committees . A spokesperson to speak freely . .
Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 184 - 11/01/2024 13:33:33
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Replying To Formertownie: " Replying To Pikeman96: "My feelings would be roughly along the same lines.
I won't claim that all players in my own club engage with the process, but those that want to certainly have the opportunity to do so, and are certainly listened to.
Won't make a big deal of this, but formertownie even said in his own post that even if he'd been asked such things during his playing days, he probably wouldn't have engaged anyway. Much the same would probably apply across the board - if a player isn't going to speak up through his club, he's probably not going to speak up through a players' group either." No possibly they wont . But in a group where all are equal they may be more inclined to talk and hope they would nt be ridiculed. Probably strong saying ridiculed . But young men or women won't know the in and outs of how things run as we did nt when we were young and possibly still dont truth be told that's why I ask the questions . But among their peers they can relax and chat and possibly come up with something that works . Being a selection from all clubs represented and all levels I think no one clubs agenda or preference would get through as too many clubs represented. Surely they have as much right to have their say as an indivual group as much as any other represented group . Again all these groups and committes cccc etc not clubs are made up of club members who can also put motions through their clubs . . Where players have only one choice . We need the players as much as the others that run it. I would just like to hear the club players as a whole opinion on the structures and not through clubs or committees . A spokesperson to speak freely . ."
That doesn't make sense really.
To be honest I'm not really sure what your trying to say, I mean you are literally describing what is the actual committee itself, "not one clubs agenda gets through as all clubs are represented" that's literally what happens!.
Every player has a right, through the club.
Have a read through the submissions, I pretty much guarantee almost all of them have been discussed with the players at the clubs, I know in our club any time a motion went in in regards to championship structures they were player agreed motions.
I think your actually arguing for something that already exists to be honest.
tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1353 - 11/01/2024 14:41:19
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Replying To tearintom: " Replying To Formertownie: "[quote=Pikeman96: "My feelings would be roughly along the same lines.
I won't claim that all players in my own club engage with the process, but those that want to certainly have the opportunity to do so, and are certainly listened to.
Won't make a big deal of this, but formertownie even said in his own post that even if he'd been asked such things during his playing days, he probably wouldn't have engaged anyway. Much the same would probably apply across the board - if a player isn't going to speak up through his club, he's probably not going to speak up through a players' group either." No possibly they wont . But in a group where all are equal they may be more inclined to talk and hope they would nt be ridiculed. Probably strong saying ridiculed . But young men or women won't know the in and outs of how things run as we did nt when we were young and possibly still dont truth be told that's why I ask the questions . But among their peers they can relax and chat and possibly come up with something that works . Being a selection from all clubs represented and all levels I think no one clubs agenda or preference would get through as too many clubs represented. Surely they have as much right to have their say as an indivual group as much as any other represented group . Again all these groups and committes cccc etc not clubs are made up of club members who can also put motions through their clubs . . Where players have only one choice . We need the players as much as the others that run it. I would just like to hear the club players as a whole opinion on the structures and not through clubs or committees . A spokesperson to speak freely . ."
That doesn't make sense really.
To be honest I'm not really sure what your trying to say, I mean you are literally describing what is the actual committee itself, "not one clubs agenda gets through as all clubs are represented" that's literally what happens!.
Every player has a right, through the club.
Have a read through the submissions, I pretty much guarantee almost all of them have been discussed with the players at the clubs, I know in our club any time a motion went in in regards to championship structures they were player agreed motions.
I think your actually arguing for something that already exists to be honest."]I m talking about a club players only group no other club reps on it only current players . where they can submit their own motion and not be restricted by club committee or possibly desudaed from putting one together as may not be in line with clubs preference .
Are we really tuned in to what players want .
Clubs and players may not always seek same solution to perceived problem .
There is no club only player group represented at present I m not saying they will have any feasible motions .
But I feel they should be in position to put their own motion or cha.pionship structure forward for discussion or vote if they want to .
Regardless of their individual clubs motion or preference
Much like representative's on the other groups who could put their motion to club for approval .
Ie if DOC OR Adrian went to their respective club with a motion to reduce senior football club numbers and increase hurling championship games instead would their clubs put it forward . Possibly not.
But if you sit on a committee with like minded people there is a serious possiblity it would get brought forward as a motion if it is perceived to enhance the betterment of their choosen code. . No one to argue against it .
Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 184 - 11/01/2024 15:31:29
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Replying To Formertownie: " Replying To Pikeman96: "My feelings would be roughly along the same lines.
I won't claim that all players in my own club engage with the process, but those that want to certainly have the opportunity to do so, and are certainly listened to.
Won't make a big deal of this, but formertownie even said in his own post that even if he'd been asked such things during his playing days, he probably wouldn't have engaged anyway. Much the same would probably apply across the board - if a player isn't going to speak up through his club, he's probably not going to speak up through a players' group either." No possibly they wont . But in a group where all are equal they may be more inclined to talk and hope they would nt be ridiculed. Probably strong saying ridiculed . But young men or women won't know the in and outs of how things run as we did nt when we were young and possibly still dont truth be told that's why I ask the questions . But among their peers they can relax and chat and possibly come up with something that works . Being a selection from all clubs represented and all levels I think no one clubs agenda or preference would get through as too many clubs represented. Surely they have as much right to have their say as an indivual group as much as any other represented group . Again all these groups and committes cccc etc not clubs are made up of club members who can also put motions through their clubs . . Where players have only one choice . We need the players as much as the others that run it. I would just like to hear the club players as a whole opinion on the structures and not through clubs or committees . A spokesperson to speak freely . ."
I reckon there are already motions in anyway to cover just about anything a player could want:
- there are motions to introduce alternate blocks. If they fail, then the split season will remain. So whatever side of the fence a player is on, there's the possibility of it working out their way.
- there are motions to run the championship as three groups of four, or as four groups of three. Again, if they fail, the current system will remain in place. So again, anything a player might want is covered.
- motions to link the league and championship, or to just restructure the league without linking it to championship. And yet again, if they fail, things will stay as they are.
Bear in mind that even if there was a Players' Group entitled to submit motions of its own, and entitled to a spot on the County Board, it'd still only be one voice there out of more than 60. So that's just one guaranteed vote for anything it would put forward, and players would still have to engage with their clubs to try get votes for the motions they want passed anyway.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2257 - 11/01/2024 15:46:22
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@formertownie - on your other post above, that went up around the same time as my last one -
Doc O'Connor, Adrian Fenlon, and the rest on the Hurling Advisory Committee have nothing to do with the motion to reduced football to just eight teams per grade.
As already pointed out, that's a separate motion, put forward by a separate group.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2257 - 11/01/2024 17:05:56
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Replying To Pikeman96: " Replying To Formertownie: "[quote=Pikeman96: "My feelings would be roughly along the same lines.
I won't claim that all players in my own club engage with the process, but those that want to certainly have the opportunity to do so, and are certainly listened to.
Won't make a big deal of this, but formertownie even said in his own post that even if he'd been asked such things during his playing days, he probably wouldn't have engaged anyway. Much the same would probably apply across the board - if a player isn't going to speak up through his club, he's probably not going to speak up through a players' group either." No possibly they wont . But in a group where all are equal they may be more inclined to talk and hope they would nt be ridiculed. Probably strong saying ridiculed . But young men or women won't know the in and outs of how things run as we did nt when we were young and possibly still dont truth be told that's why I ask the questions . But among their peers they can relax and chat and possibly come up with something that works . Being a selection from all clubs represented and all levels I think no one clubs agenda or preference would get through as too many clubs represented. Surely they have as much right to have their say as an indivual group as much as any other represented group . Again all these groups and committes cccc etc not clubs are made up of club members who can also put motions through their clubs . . Where players have only one choice . We need the players as much as the others that run it. I would just like to hear the club players as a whole opinion on the structures and not through clubs or committees . A spokesperson to speak freely . ."
I reckon there are already motions in anyway to cover just about anything a player could want:
- there are motions to introduce alternate blocks. If they fail, then the split season will remain. So whatever side of the fence a player is on, there's the possibility of it working out their way.
- there are motions to run the championship as three groups of four, or as four groups of three. Again, if they fail, the current system will remain in place. So again, anything a player might want is covered.
- motions to link the league and championship, or to just restructure the league without linking it to championship. And yet again, if they fail, things will stay as they are.
Bear in mind that even if there was a Players' Group entitled to submit motions of its own, and entitled to a spot on the County Board, it'd still only be one voice there out of more than 60. So that's just one guaranteed vote for anything it would put forward, and players would still have to engage with their clubs to try get votes for the motions they want passed anyway."]I think what Formertownie is trying to say is that there is a disconnect between administrators/executive members and players at some, if not many, clubs. I think he could be right.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12113 - 11/01/2024 17:48:58
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@Viking - I don't think anyone would dispute that.
But myself, and it seems tearintom too, are just suggesting that the solution lies in those clubs engaging more with their players - and the players taking the opportunity to engage - rather than setting up a whole new group.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2257 - 11/01/2024 19:16:25
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Ye are all correct in part on what I actually mean .
I think players as a whole possibly don't engage with each other first to actually know what they want what's best for them . Have they evr really sat down amongst themselves and had serious discussion with each other on how they would like to see the format pan out .
Clubs managers committes Co boards do. Players don't as unit .
All I'm saying is it should be encouraged and surely the people who play should have a reasonable say I any changes as a group .
I don't think Clubs discourage or fail to engage I do feel players until they mature don't really understand the process or have the confidence to engage.
Start a group giving them a charter on what they shoukd discuss and what options there are and that can have a say .
I m around a long time and I still struggle to see how some people have such an influence or try sway opinion .
Again I'm not sure who actually has the voting rights bar clubs . How many votes are there ie
Clubs
Co board
Executive Committee
Advisory committees etc
Does chairman have 1 vote or more
does each executive committe member have their own vote. .
Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 184 - 11/01/2024 19:59:00
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Replying To Pikeman96: "@Viking - I don't think anyone would dispute that.
But myself, and it seems tearintom too, are just suggesting that the solution lies in those clubs engaging more with their players - and the players taking the opportunity to engage - rather than setting up a whole new group." For sure Pikeman. But sometimes Executives/Admininistrators don't realise how disconnected they are. And sometimes they just don't value the opinions of lads they see as just passing through.
And sometimes players don't realise how much time and effort many administrators have put in over many years in some cases, or feel a little intimidated in meetings because they do realise this.
At the end of the day there shouldn't be a them and us.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12113 - 11/01/2024 20:28:44
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Replying To Viking66: "For sure Pikeman. But sometimes Executives/Admininistrators don't realise how disconnected they are. And sometimes they just don't value the opinions of lads they see as just passing through.
And sometimes players don't realise how much time and effort many administrators have put in over many years in some cases, or feel a little intimidated in meetings because they do realise this.
At the end of the day there shouldn't be a them and us." Think you are realising what I m trying to say.
How would one more group representing the actual players opinions only be a problem . We may learn more on how we can improve on every aspect from format tonplayer retention by listening to them and have no input in their discussions or motions .
Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 184 - 11/01/2024 21:07:18
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Replying To Formertownie: "Ye are all correct in part on what I actually mean .
I think players as a whole possibly don't engage with each other first to actually know what they want what's best for them . Have they evr really sat down amongst themselves and had serious discussion with each other on how they would like to see the format pan out .
Clubs managers committes Co boards do. Players don't as unit .
All I'm saying is it should be encouraged and surely the people who play should have a reasonable say I any changes as a group .
I don't think Clubs discourage or fail to engage I do feel players until they mature don't really understand the process or have the confidence to engage.
Start a group giving them a charter on what they shoukd discuss and what options there are and that can have a say .
I m around a long time and I still struggle to see how some people have such an influence or try sway opinion .
Again I'm not sure who actually has the voting rights bar clubs . How many votes are there ie
Clubs
Co board
Executive Committee
Advisory committees etc
Does chairman have 1 vote or more
does each executive committe member have their own vote. ." Rough guide to votes at County Board:
Clubs - one delegate each = 48 votes (Clonee aren't entitled to a vote as they don't field teams at adult level)
Coiste Bainisti - 16 members, with one vote each = 16 votes (18 people listed on Wexford GAA website, but two of them - the Operations Manager and the Chairman's nominee - don't have a vote there). And it's really just 15, because while Chairman has one vote (and just one, since you ask), he doesn't use it unless there's a tie and he then has the casting vote.
District Chairmen & District Secretaries = 8 votes (but some of them don't actually attend, and at least one of them is also their club delegate, so he doesn't get two votes)
Post Primary Schools and the Referees Committee are also represented on County Board, so that's two more votes.
Don't think there are any others. Neither Hurling nor Football Advisory Committees actually have a rep on County Board, so they don't have a vote. CCCC doesn't have a seat on the Board or a vote there either. Current Chairman of the CCCC is Bobby Goff and he's also Vice Chairman so he has a vote in that regard, but CCCC themselves don't have one.
That makes a total of approximately 74 votes if everybody turned up and actually used them.
A Players Group would be just one more vote, to make 75 altogether.
All shows how no one person or group - not even Coiste Bainisti - can railroad something through without having fairly broad consensus from others.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2257 - 11/01/2024 22:40:47
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Rough guide to votes at County Board:
Clubs - one delegate each = 48 votes (Clonee aren't entitled to a vote as they don't field teams at adult level)
Coiste Bainisti - 16 members, with one vote each = 16 votes (18 people listed on Wexford GAA website, but two of them - the Operations Manager and the Chairman's nominee - don't have a vote there). And it's really just 15, because while Chairman has one vote (and just one, since you ask), he doesn't use it unless there's a tie and he then has the casting vote.
District Chairmen & District Secretaries = 8 votes (but some of them don't actually attend, and at least one of them is also their club delegate, so he doesn't get two votes)
Post Primary Schools and the Referees Committee are also represented on County Board, so that's two more votes.
Don't think there are any others. Neither Hurling nor Football Advisory Committees actually have a rep on County Board, so they don't have a vote. CCCC doesn't have a seat on the Board or a vote there either. Current Chairman of the CCCC is Bobby Goff and he's also Vice Chairman so he has a vote in that regard, but CCCC themselves don't have one.
That makes a total of approximately 74 votes if everybody turned up and actually used them.
A Players Group would be just one more vote, to make 75 altogether.
All shows how no one person or group - not even Coiste Bainisti - can railroad something through without having fairly broad consensus from others." Thanks pikeman as usual your knowledge helps me understand the whole mechanism.
Yes very broad spread . And gives good chance iof getting it right hopefully where all interests are served and reasonablt contented.
I d still like to see 1 players rep for all the clubs collectively not each club where after discussing at lenght their thoughts and ideas to give a broader view of the players point of view without any club or exec influence thats all .
Give them the opportunity if its not taken up so be it . Just my thoughts no players influence .
Dont need to be at meeting or have vote but give those that can vote an insight into players perspective not through clubs .
Agaun thanks for the info I leave it at that
Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 184 - 11/01/2024 23:11:23
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Hopefully three things are achieved at the structures meeting this week:
- Mixed season where hurling and football alternate over the year. The split season hasn't worked. No proposals to continue split, so this should be done.
- Championship to continue with 12 teams per grade. Same structure as before: two groups of 6 teams, where the top four in each go through to quarter finals. There is no perfect championship structure in any county, but this is the best and fairest to all option.
- League to be separated from championship. Meaningful promotion and relegation. No need for league finals or relegation play-offs if they want to trim a fixtures weekend or two. A league is a league. Finish top and you win. Promotion available for those who finish first and second, relegation for those who finish bottom two. If it evolves to where you have some intermediate teams playing senior teams in league, or intermediate teams playing junior teams, so be it. Clubs should be rewarded with promotion for taking the league seriously and trying to better themselves, and should be relegated if they don't bother. Number of teams in a league is secondary, although I'd say probably 6 or 8 teams per league would be around right.
icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2553 - 15/01/2024 11:04:25
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Just to update this, meeting is on Thursday and along with the club delegate, the secretary or chairperson can also attend. Not sure then if each club has two votes or not or still just the one. Be interesting to see what happens. My money is alternate weekends with the championship structure staying the way it is.
alwaysasub (Wexford) - Posts: 403 - 16/01/2024 13:27:42
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Replying To alwaysasub: "Just to update this, meeting is on Thursday and along with the club delegate, the secretary or chairperson can also attend. Not sure then if each club has two votes or not or still just the one. Be interesting to see what happens. My money is alternate weekends with the championship structure staying the way it is." Each club will still only have one vote - that was clearly stated in the email that was sent out to invite Chairpersons and/or Secretaries.
And for what it's worth, it would be alternate blocks rather than alternate weekends, but apart from that, my money is on the same thing as yours.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2257 - 16/01/2024 14:07:52
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Replying To alwaysasub: "Just to update this, meeting is on Thursday and along with the club delegate, the secretary or chairperson can also attend. Not sure then if each club has two votes or not or still just the one. Be interesting to see what happens. My money is alternate weekends with the championship structure staying the way it is." No only 1 vote per club. I think you are probably right but hope you are wrong!
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12113 - 16/01/2024 14:14:18
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I see the County Board will be tweeting from the meeting tonight. Means anyone interested should find out about all decisions as soon as they're made.
Can't help thinking that a switch to alternate blocks looks more and more likely. Even players in my own club - who were strongly in favour of split season last year and the year before - are now opting for the alternate blocks instead, so that's the way we'll be voting.
Can't see too many who voted against the split season last year changing their minds the other way. And add in how the whole top table will surely vote in favour of alternate blocks (since it's their own proposal) rather than last year's result where they were split 50/50 as well, and everything points towards change all right. Could even be by a massive majority.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2257 - 18/01/2024 11:21:47
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Similar to ourselves, we asked our players what they thought for our meeting and they came back that they wanted a return to alternative blocks so we will be voting the same. Incidentally, we originally voted for a split season so we will be changing our vote this time.
alwaysasub (Wexford) - Posts: 403 - 18/01/2024 13:25:20
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Replying To Pikeman96: "I see the County Board will be tweeting from the meeting tonight. Means anyone interested should find out about all decisions as soon as they're made.
Can't help thinking that a switch to alternate blocks looks more and more likely. Even players in my own club - who were strongly in favour of split season last year and the year before - are now opting for the alternate blocks instead, so that's the way we'll be voting.
Can't see too many who voted against the split season last year changing their minds the other way. And add in how the whole top table will surely vote in favour of alternate blocks (since it's their own proposal) rather than last year's result where they were split 50/50 as well, and everything points towards change all right. Could even be by a massive majority." I'd say it will be tbh. Been getting plenty of feedback from other clubs this week. It will be interesting to see how it affects the standard of the championship, especially the hurling championship, though the season being extended should be good also.
The HAC structure plan is likely going to be accepted also, and it will be interesting to see how that affects the group stages and how seriously clubs take them, as it will then be possible to win your grade in the championship without winning any group games at all. The bigger clubs especially, if not all clubs, will probably use the no jeopardy group stages to get fringe and younger players more championship experience, a bit like the tier 1 Leinster u20 set up was used last year.
I think the 8 club football championship is a dead duck, and rightly so.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12113 - 18/01/2024 13:56:41
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