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Replying To Pikeman96: "@Viking (again) - your post above either wasn't there or I simply didn't see it when writing that last one.
Fair enough that you'd be happy to try this system even with the league (or so-called "Club Championship"), if not with the actual "real" championship.
Wouldn't always be the case though of lads getting to play against better opponents:
- Say Div. 1 started as the 12 senior teams and four intermediate teams. Those four teams would get to play up a level all right.
- But then Div. 2 would be the remaining eight intermediate teams, and eight from intermediate 'A'. While the intermediate 'A' teams would be playing up a level, the intermediate teams would actually be playing down.
- And Div. 3 would be four intermediate 'A' teams, and the 12 junior teams. So, 12 teams playing up a level to some degree, in that one of their three group games would be against a team from a higher championship grade. But four teams playing down all the time, as all three of their group games would be against teams from a lower championship grade. (This is based on assumption that the four intermediate 'A' teams would be seeded, so that there's one in each group).
Personally, I think thing most likely to find favour for the Oulart proposal is how every third week would be a free week to do your own thing." That's where promotion and relegation comes in. The top team or 2 teams from the 2nd tier will be in the top tier the following year. Personally I'd prefer 2 up 2 down. And it's more about getting more lads playing top tier hurling to help our Senior Intercounty team than anything else.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12114 - 25/11/2023 10:47:56
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Not really related to actual structures, but another thing that will be up for debate will be whether or not second year minors should be allowed to play adult as well.
Was out for the Sunday dinner around 5 p.m. yesterday, while Man United v Everton was on telly. As I was chatting to somebody at the bar who was watching the match, he pointed out that United had an 18-year-old playing for them, and doing fairly well. "And the mad thing is that if he was a hurler in Wexford this year, he wouldn't be allowed to play senior," he said.
That may be so, but thing is.....nobody expects the Man United "minors" and "seniors" competitions to be scheduled around each other, if one or more lads could be picked for both. Those lads just play one or the other, and if they're picked for the "seniors", then the "minors" do without them that week.
Can't see the same thing happening here.....
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2257 - 27/11/2023 13:15:12
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Not really related to actual structures, but another thing that will be up for debate will be whether or not second year minors should be allowed to play adult as well.
Was out for the Sunday dinner around 5 p.m. yesterday, while Man United v Everton was on telly. As I was chatting to somebody at the bar who was watching the match, he pointed out that United had an 18-year-old playing for them, and doing fairly well. "And the mad thing is that if he was a hurler in Wexford this year, he wouldn't be allowed to play senior," he said.
That may be so, but thing is.....nobody expects the Man United "minors" and "seniors" competitions to be scheduled around each other, if one or more lads could be picked for both. Those lads just play one or the other, and if they're picked for the "seniors", then the "minors" do without them that week.
Can't see the same thing happening here....." I think its crazy that 18 year old's can't play adult and view this rhetoric that them playing adult holds up the underage competition as nonsense too, if you look over September and October pretty much all underage competitions are held up due to crossover. u18s crossover with u16, u16s crossover with u14 and u14 crossover with u12. For example there was a 4 week gap between the minor hurling premier semi finals and finals as Oulart made the the u18 and u16 finals and at least 2 players were starting on both, Glynn between u18 and u16 I think played 2 football finals and a hurling shield finals, I know 1 player for certain and maybe 1 or 2 more who were starting on all 3 teams. Don't think this adult/underage competitions crossover will create a problem as the issue is already there.
TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1760 - 27/11/2023 13:38:09
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Replying To TerribleFootwork: "I think its crazy that 18 year old's can't play adult and view this rhetoric that them playing adult holds up the underage competition as nonsense too, if you look over September and October pretty much all underage competitions are held up due to crossover. u18s crossover with u16, u16s crossover with u14 and u14 crossover with u12. For example there was a 4 week gap between the minor hurling premier semi finals and finals as Oulart made the the u18 and u16 finals and at least 2 players were starting on both, Glynn between u18 and u16 I think played 2 football finals and a hurling shield finals, I know 1 player for certain and maybe 1 or 2 more who were starting on all 3 teams. Don't think this adult/underage competitions crossover will create a problem as the issue is already there." But underage competitions as a whole aren't held up now. They continue each week throughout September & October on a basis of what's generally U14 & U18 in one week, and U12 & U16 in the alternate weeks.
So, there's a round of minor matches (for example) every fortnight. The four-week gap you speak of between minor hurling semi-finals and finals is therefore exactly as expected - i.e. a round of minor hurling one weekend, a round of minor football a fortnight later, and then a round of minor hurling again a fortnight after that.
However, if U18s are also allowed to play adult, and there are adult matches every weekend (as there needs to be in order to have championships finished in time to send teams into Leinster), then you can't have minor matches on those weekends as well, unless:
a) The U18 player has to choose whether to play adult or minor, but can't play both,
or
b) The U18 player faces playing two championship matches on the same weekend, and possibly even sometimes on the same day.
So, unless people accept one or the other of those, the entire minor championships are held up from early to mid-September until the adult championships are finished. And then you run into difficulty scheduling minor around whatever's left to be played in U21. Even worse if county champions playing in Leinster want a minor player or two for those matches as well. It would be absolute chaos.
With all due respect, anyone who can't see that or who refuses to see that could end up contributing to a huge problem.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2257 - 27/11/2023 15:28:06
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Replying To Pikeman96: "But underage competitions as a whole aren't held up now. They continue each week throughout September & October on a basis of what's generally U14 & U18 in one week, and U12 & U16 in the alternate weeks.
So, there's a round of minor matches (for example) every fortnight. The four-week gap you speak of between minor hurling semi-finals and finals is therefore exactly as expected - i.e. a round of minor hurling one weekend, a round of minor football a fortnight later, and then a round of minor hurling again a fortnight after that.
However, if U18s are also allowed to play adult, and there are adult matches every weekend (as there needs to be in order to have championships finished in time to send teams into Leinster), then you can't have minor matches on those weekends as well, unless:
a) The U18 player has to choose whether to play adult or minor, but can't play both,
or
b) The U18 player faces playing two championship matches on the same weekend, and possibly even sometimes on the same day.
So, unless people accept one or the other of those, the entire minor championships are held up from early to mid-September until the adult championships are finished. And then you run into difficulty scheduling minor around whatever's left to be played in U21. Even worse if county champions playing in Leinster want a minor player or two for those matches as well. It would be absolute chaos.
With all due respect, anyone who can't see that or who refuses to see that could end up contributing to a huge problem." I see no sense in allowing an U18 player to play adult - or allowing maybe one U18 player hold up an entire championship for the rest of his minor team.
The reality is Clubs struggle to hold onto lads that aren't fully committed - parents and families that aren't fully committed. Once September arrives and school / darker evenings / soccer / rugby starts calling some of these less committed guys are gone .. if their championship is held up then they are definitely gone
The only solution I can think of is a compromise - If an U18 plays Adult then they cannot play Minor .. It is far from ideal but our underage seasons are too long currently for them to be delayed further with this.
MyOhMi (Wexford) - Posts: 136 - 27/11/2023 16:50:56
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Replying To Pikeman96: "But underage competitions as a whole aren't held up now. They continue each week throughout September & October on a basis of what's generally U14 & U18 in one week, and U12 & U16 in the alternate weeks.
So, there's a round of minor matches (for example) every fortnight. The four-week gap you speak of between minor hurling semi-finals and finals is therefore exactly as expected - i.e. a round of minor hurling one weekend, a round of minor football a fortnight later, and then a round of minor hurling again a fortnight after that.
However, if U18s are also allowed to play adult, and there are adult matches every weekend (as there needs to be in order to have championships finished in time to send teams into Leinster), then you can't have minor matches on those weekends as well, unless:
a) The U18 player has to choose whether to play adult or minor, but can't play both,
or
b) The U18 player faces playing two championship matches on the same weekend, and possibly even sometimes on the same day.
So, unless people accept one or the other of those, the entire minor championships are held up from early to mid-September until the adult championships are finished. And then you run into difficulty scheduling minor around whatever's left to be played in U21. Even worse if county champions playing in Leinster want a minor player or two for those matches as well. It would be absolute chaos.
With all due respect, anyone who can't see that or who refuses to see that could end up contributing to a huge problem." this is exactly it. And anyone who says that minors playing adult wouldnt hold up a championship must never have played or managed minor teams. Add intercounty minor into the mix and that also had a massive bearing on adult fixtures.
The grade was put back to 18 as apparently there are too many players lost who are not ready for adult grades at age 17. And now we are arguing that we should be allowing 17 year olds play adult and its ridiculous. We constantly have the same argument on both sides of the coin the whole time. For me, the vast majority of 17 year olds turning 18 are not ready for adult and another year, particularly because we dont have a good enough underage competition after minor, is essential. I would far rather have 90% of the minors catered for in a good competition rather than the 10% of exceptional players who will end up playing adult for 10 or more years anyway.
I also absolutely hate that point of EPL players at 17 or 18 playing and lads say they wouldnt play adult in Wexford. Thats true. Those lads in the EPL also dont play a completely different sport depending on what week it is. They dont play 2 sports week on week for their club, then pay 2 sports week on week with their club, and the better lads play one of the sports for their county team. Not to mention that its likely they play soccer and maybe rugby as well. Sure lets throw adult hurling and football into the mix too.
And please, please, dont tell me its up to the clubs to manage the workload and burn out. Adult coaches/managers, particularly paid outside coaches, dont care one bit about a minor match mid week and will play minor players if they think they'll win an adult game with them. Training? Do you think an adult coach will play a minor that doesnt train? So that puts pressure on the minor to train adult, train minor and play for both teams.
With football and hurling, the crossover is too big and its far better let minor play at their own level and come into adult then. If a club says they cant survive without an 18 year old playing, then there are problems in that club that one year of a minor age wont fix.
james2011 (Wexford) - Posts: 602 - 28/11/2023 15:16:20
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It's a good point by MyOhMi that some of the less committed lads might not come back at all if there's a long gap between early September and late October or sometime in November.
We saw something similar even last weekend, when a club that reached an adult county final this year had to give a walkover in an U21 semi-final because they couldn't muster a team together. Not enough of the "less committed" lads were willing to put on the boots and helmets again, after such a long gap since their last match.
You could say "it was only the Shield", but even still, if U21 had been played out to a finish during the summer, you can bet they'd have been able to field a team for it all right.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2257 - 28/11/2023 15:21:39
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james2011's post went up as I writing that last one. He's in agreement with me overall, and am just posting here to say I'm in agreement with his last line.
To my mind, there are two types of minors in question here:
First is the exceptional second year minor, already good enough for a regular starting spot at senior. Adam Screeney is the obvious example at the moment. He could play senior this year because Offaly operated minor at U17, and so he was already overage for that, and therefore an adult player.
Thing is, Offaly have decided to go back to U18 next year, with minors not allowed to play adult. So even in spite of a talent like Screeney, they've decided that this is the better way to go overall.
Second is the sort of minors who'd help to make up the numbers on a club's second or third team. And this is where I'm really in agreement with james2011. If a club is relying on such players to make up a team, they should really be asking hard questions of themselves.
Any club surely has at least six or seven players coming out of minor in any given year. This makes a total of probably 40 to 50 such players over the course of six or seven years.
So, any club that says "we're a bit stuck for the Junior team, we could do with some of the minors playing" should instead be saying: - "What happened to the rest of the 40-something lads we used to have, who are all between 19 and 25 years old? How did we allow ourselves to lose them, what are we doing wrong, and how are we going to stop it from keeping happening?"
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2257 - 28/11/2023 15:38:27
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Replying To Pikeman96: "james2011's post went up as I writing that last one. He's in agreement with me overall, and am just posting here to say I'm in agreement with his last line.
To my mind, there are two types of minors in question here:
First is the exceptional second year minor, already good enough for a regular starting spot at senior. Adam Screeney is the obvious example at the moment. He could play senior this year because Offaly operated minor at U17, and so he was already overage for that, and therefore an adult player.
Thing is, Offaly have decided to go back to U18 next year, with minors not allowed to play adult. So even in spite of a talent like Screeney, they've decided that this is the better way to go overall.
Second is the sort of minors who'd help to make up the numbers on a club's second or third team. And this is where I'm really in agreement with james2011. If a club is relying on such players to make up a team, they should really be asking hard questions of themselves.
Any club surely has at least six or seven players coming out of minor in any given year. This makes a total of probably 40 to 50 such players over the course of six or seven years.
So, any club that says "we're a bit stuck for the Junior team, we could do with some of the minors playing" should instead be saying: - "What happened to the rest of the 40-something lads we used to have, who are all between 19 and 25 years old? How did we allow ourselves to lose them, what are we doing wrong, and how are we going to stop it from keeping happening?"" Can't believe the likes of you and James2011 are still having to explain that point. Absolutely baffling. I know emigration, well travelling in particular, is an issue for smaller clubs, but surely in clubs there are plenty of lads in their late 30s early 40s who are retiring who could play Junior B still if really needed? I know that was the case this year in our club. And lads in that age group put in a superhuman effort up in Oulart to get their team back up to Senior when they got relegated. They didn't do that for money. They love their club.
And your point about player retention of lads in the 18-24/5 age group is true too, but are the clubs keeping in contact with lads who dropped out when young families appeared unexpectedly, or went away working for a year, not just abroad but in other parts of this country. We had lads playing this year who fell into both these categories. If there really is that bad of a disconnect between the club executive and their players surely they should be tackling that, as regardless what age minor is, they are ###### in the long run if they don't.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12114 - 28/11/2023 17:11:51
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Replying To Pikeman96: "james2011's post went up as I writing that last one. He's in agreement with me overall, and am just posting here to say I'm in agreement with his last line.
To my mind, there are two types of minors in question here:
First is the exceptional second year minor, already good enough for a regular starting spot at senior. Adam Screeney is the obvious example at the moment. He could play senior this year because Offaly operated minor at U17, and so he was already overage for that, and therefore an adult player.
Thing is, Offaly have decided to go back to U18 next year, with minors not allowed to play adult. So even in spite of a talent like Screeney, they've decided that this is the better way to go overall.
Second is the sort of minors who'd help to make up the numbers on a club's second or third team. And this is where I'm really in agreement with james2011. If a club is relying on such players to make up a team, they should really be asking hard questions of themselves.
Any club surely has at least six or seven players coming out of minor in any given year. This makes a total of probably 40 to 50 such players over the course of six or seven years.
So, any club that says "we're a bit stuck for the Junior team, we could do with some of the minors playing" should instead be saying: - "What happened to the rest of the 40-something lads we used to have, who are all between 19 and 25 years old? How did we allow ourselves to lose them, what are we doing wrong, and how are we going to stop it from keeping happening?"" I'm not so sure about that if I'm being honest.
I know an awful lot of clubs who wouldn't be pulling 6 or 7 players out of minor in any year, not even close to that.
I mean we have clubs who can't even get a minor team at all unless they join with at least one other club in certain cases maybe three clubs joining together.
tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1353 - 28/11/2023 19:15:37
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Replying To tearintom: "I'm not so sure about that if I'm being honest.
I know an awful lot of clubs who wouldn't be pulling 6 or 7 players out of minor in any year, not even close to that.
I mean we have clubs who can't even get a minor team at all unless they join with at least one other club in certain cases maybe three clubs joining together." Agree 6 or 7 is on the high side
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12114 - 29/11/2023 09:24:27
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On the six or seven thing - that's based on if you have a minor squad of 18 to 20, six or seven of them would be second year minors; another six or seven would be first year minors; and the rest would be U16s playing up an age grade.
The six or seven second-year minors would be moving up to the adult grades in the following year, and the same thing would apply each year.
I accept you wouldn't have that many if you were amalgamated with another club at minor. This just didn't occur to me as I wrote the earlier post. In such cases, you'd only have half as many moving up.
Am unaware of any cases where three clubs are amalgamated at minor, but I stand to be corrected.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2257 - 29/11/2023 10:17:53
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I would love to see this format
12 Teams at each Grade.
3 Groups of 4, each team getting 3 games.
Top 2 from each group go to quarter final, with the remaining 2 QF teams coming from the teams in this grade with highest league table finishing places.
There is some reward for teams in the league then making them a nice safety net to finish as high as possible.
Relegation would be one of the teams finishing last in the group, relegation final might or might not be needed.
(If 2 of 3 teams finishing last in their group get the 2 league spots then other team would be relegated, otherwise should have relegation final for 2 worst last placed teams.
What are people's thoughts on that format.
pocuana77 (Wexford) - Posts: 1 - 04/12/2023 12:36:15
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Once a proposal has any link to the league it wont pass, or else clubs possibly will rather their players not committing to county sqauds
lefty (Wexford) - Posts: 188 - 04/12/2023 13:26:00
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Replying To pocuana77: "I would love to see this format
12 Teams at each Grade.
3 Groups of 4, each team getting 3 games.
Top 2 from each group go to quarter final, with the remaining 2 QF teams coming from the teams in this grade with highest league table finishing places.
There is some reward for teams in the league then making them a nice safety net to finish as high as possible.
Relegation would be one of the teams finishing last in the group, relegation final might or might not be needed.
(If 2 of 3 teams finishing last in their group get the 2 league spots then other team would be relegated, otherwise should have relegation final for 2 worst last placed teams.
What are people's thoughts on that format." While I do like to see three groups of four, which I think is the most obvious choice ( I know less matches but fits better into time frame which is too tight with current format unfortunately), I think the better option would be one which I think I saw in the proposals actually is the league winners getting to play their first championship game at home. You will never get clubs to agree to seedings etc from league to championship but something like that might be a meaningful reward.
alwaysasub (Wexford) - Posts: 403 - 04/12/2023 13:45:20
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Replying To alwaysasub: "While I do like to see three groups of four, which I think is the most obvious choice ( I know less matches but fits better into time frame which is too tight with current format unfortunately), I think the better option would be one which I think I saw in the proposals actually is the league winners getting to play their first championship game at home. You will never get clubs to agree to seedings etc from league to championship but something like that might be a meaningful reward." League winners having first game at home is not very fair on the team who plays them first who will be the only team with an away game.
wexfordwin (Wexford) - Posts: 134 - 04/12/2023 14:13:02
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Replying To pocuana77: "I would love to see this format
12 Teams at each Grade.
3 Groups of 4, each team getting 3 games.
Top 2 from each group go to quarter final, with the remaining 2 QF teams coming from the teams in this grade with highest league table finishing places.
There is some reward for teams in the league then making them a nice safety net to finish as high as possible.
Relegation would be one of the teams finishing last in the group, relegation final might or might not be needed.
(If 2 of 3 teams finishing last in their group get the 2 league spots then other team would be relegated, otherwise should have relegation final for 2 worst last placed teams.
What are people's thoughts on that format." I don't think too many clubs are going to vote for a link between League and Championship at all tbh.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12114 - 04/12/2023 14:28:35
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Replying To wexfordwin: "League winners having first game at home is not very fair on the team who plays them first who will be the only team with an away game." Also suppose 2 League winners are drawn against eachother in the 1st round of championship? As would be very possible if we are to keep promotion and relegation in the League?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12114 - 04/12/2023 15:17:08
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This is a really good piece on the Wexford GAA website. It sets out the problems and makes some suggestions to improve things. https://wexfordgaa.ie/wexford-gaa-in-2023/
wexfordwin (Wexford) - Posts: 134 - 05/12/2023 22:12:37
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Replying To wexfordwin: "This is a really good piece on the Wexford GAA website. It sets out the problems and makes some suggestions to improve things. https://wexfordgaa.ie/wexford-gaa-in-2023/" Even as an outsider that was an interesting piece to look at. You've got to wonder are the GAA failing dual counties and dual club players somewhat. Wexford are really aiming to bring a strong program of games to their club players but it's tough to do that with the limited time able to be allocated to county club championship competitions. Dual Leinster counties are particularly impacted.
As a football man those figures comparing the health of club football relative to hurling showed a worrying trend.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4244 - 06/12/2023 08:57:08
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