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Starting a new thread on this as it refers to 2024 rather than '23, and also because it applies to hurling and football equally.
Our Co. Board Rep tells me it was decided at their meeting on Tuesday night to defer decisions on structure of next year's leagues to the January meeting, where championship structures are also to be decided. This is allow consideration of proposals to link the competitions.
No guarantee yet that they will be linked, but obviously there's a chance it might happen. Would be a hugely significant step.
I know we've had some talk about it here before, and personally, I'm still not sure it would be a good idea because of how clubs' championship prospects could be affected by things like:
- Stronger clubs, with county players, would have to play most or all league matches without these players, would likely fare worse in the league than if they had everyone available to them, and their championship seeding or starting position would be affected as a result. In essence, they'd suffer on account of supplying players to county teams.
- Smaller clubs who sometimes struggle to field league teams at all would see championship prospects affected if they have to concede a walkover, or make up the numbers for a league match by bringing in players who wouldn't be within an ass's roar of making their championship team
- And league games would continue during May/June, when just about every club would be down several players who are occupied with college exams, meaning your championship seeding could even end up being related to the number of students in your squad.
Also occurs to me that linking both would surely mean a return to the league divisions having to correspond with the championship gradings - i.e. Division 1 would be the 12 senior teams, Div. 2 would be the 12 intermediate teams, etc.
This would mean an end after just one year of the promotion/relegation system that was introduced this year. In hurling, for instance, Buffers Alley, St. James' and Askamore all earned the right this year to be promoted in the league and playing against senior teams in next year's one. In football, St. Martin's, Horeswood, and Rathgarogue-Cushinstown did the same.
All these clubs would instead face dropping back down to the second division of the league, if they need the 12 intermediate clubs there so that finishing positions in the league can be used to determine seedings for championship.
There are already two proposals submitted on how to link the competitions, from Clongeen and Sarsfields. Will do a separate post on that below - and will try keep it short!
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2256 - 23/11/2023 10:04:58
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Right…hopefully a quick one on Clongeen and Sarsfields proposals. Main thing is both actually reduce the number of championship games.
Clongeen:
- Each team plays eight league matches. Unclear how they decide which eight of the eleven other teams in your championship grade that you actually play.
- Finishing position in league determines your seeding for championship draw.
- Championship would be four groups of three. Would basically be a return to the "Covid Championships" - i.e. top team in each group goes through to quarter-finals, while teams in second and third play preliminary quarter-finals.
Sarsfields:
- With 12 teams in each league division, you actually play all of the rest of them - i.e. 11 league matches in hurling, and 11 in football.
- Again, finishing position in league determines your seeding for championship.
- Championship would be three groups of four.
- Group 1 would be teams that finished 1st to 4th in league. They'd all play each other but all would go through to quarter-finals anyway.
- Groups 2 and 3 would be made up of the other teams. The top 2 in each group would join the Group 1 teams in quarter-finals.
- Overall, would take a whopping 34 rounds of matches (17 hurling, 17 football).
- Hard to see any leeway there for weeks off, weeks lost to bad weather, etc.
- For example, this year, 34 rounds of matches starting on the first weekend of March would have meant a match every single weekend until the weekend of October 21/22.
There might also be other proposals submitted in the coming weeks, but for now, it's just those two.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2256 - 23/11/2023 10:22:24
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Starting a new thread on this as it refers to 2024 rather than '23, and also because it applies to hurling and football equally.
Our Co. Board Rep tells me it was decided at their meeting on Tuesday night to defer decisions on structure of next year's leagues to the January meeting, where championship structures are also to be decided. This is allow consideration of proposals to link the competitions.
No guarantee yet that they will be linked, but obviously there's a chance it might happen. Would be a hugely significant step.
I know we've had some talk about it here before, and personally, I'm still not sure it would be a good idea because of how clubs' championship prospects could be affected by things like:
- Stronger clubs, with county players, would have to play most or all league matches without these players, would likely fare worse in the league than if they had everyone available to them, and their championship seeding or starting position would be affected as a result. In essence, they'd suffer on account of supplying players to county teams.
- Smaller clubs who sometimes struggle to field league teams at all would see championship prospects affected if they have to concede a walkover, or make up the numbers for a league match by bringing in players who wouldn't be within an ass's roar of making their championship team
- And league games would continue during May/June, when just about every club would be down several players who are occupied with college exams, meaning your championship seeding could even end up being related to the number of students in your squad.
Also occurs to me that linking both would surely mean a return to the league divisions having to correspond with the championship gradings - i.e. Division 1 would be the 12 senior teams, Div. 2 would be the 12 intermediate teams, etc.
This would mean an end after just one year of the promotion/relegation system that was introduced this year. In hurling, for instance, Buffers Alley, St. James' and Askamore all earned the right this year to be promoted in the league and playing against senior teams in next year's one. In football, St. Martin's, Horeswood, and Rathgarogue-Cushinstown did the same.
All these clubs would instead face dropping back down to the second division of the league, if they need the 12 intermediate clubs there so that finishing positions in the league can be used to determine seedings for championship.
There are already two proposals submitted on how to link the competitions, from Clongeen and Sarsfields. Will do a separate post on that below - and will try keep it short!" I've thought about it quite a bit over the last few weeks and I don't think they should be linked. The main reason being that promotion and relegation would have to go as you say, and then all you will actually be doing is incorporating the League into the Championship. Badly.
Other incentives for doing well in the League have to be looked at though. I'd still be in favour of a short break team holiday being offered to all the winners of each division might encourage player participation and effort. Which will them improve the standard of it all. A sponsor could be sought for the Leagues to help offset the cost of these team holidays/long weekends. Make the whole competition more serious with better rewards and players will take it more seriously. The knockon effect will be club players will be better prepared for the Championship which should improve the standard of the Championship also.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12109 - 23/11/2023 10:28:13
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Right…hopefully a quick one on Clongeen and Sarsfields proposals. Main thing is both actually reduce the number of championship games.
Clongeen:
- Each team plays eight league matches. Unclear how they decide which eight of the eleven other teams in your championship grade that you actually play.
- Finishing position in league determines your seeding for championship draw.
- Championship would be four groups of three. Would basically be a return to the "Covid Championships" - i.e. top team in each group goes through to quarter-finals, while teams in second and third play preliminary quarter-finals.
Sarsfields:
- With 12 teams in each league division, you actually play all of the rest of them - i.e. 11 league matches in hurling, and 11 in football.
- Again, finishing position in league determines your seeding for championship.
- Championship would be three groups of four.
- Group 1 would be teams that finished 1st to 4th in league. They'd all play each other but all would go through to quarter-finals anyway.
- Groups 2 and 3 would be made up of the other teams. The top 2 in each group would join the Group 1 teams in quarter-finals.
- Overall, would take a whopping 34 rounds of matches (17 hurling, 17 football).
- Hard to see any leeway there for weeks off, weeks lost to bad weather, etc.
- For example, this year, 34 rounds of matches starting on the first weekend of March would have meant a match every single weekend until the weekend of October 21/22.
There might also be other proposals submitted in the coming weeks, but for now, it's just those two." I cant see majority of clubs voting for either of these proposals, clubs could be short lots of players with county senior and u20 squads, sars one is mental so many games no weeks off at all for players, clubs are struggling field first teams in league not to mention second teams,
lefty (Wexford) - Posts: 188 - 23/11/2023 10:55:25
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Yeah both proposals are not up to the mark at all unfortunately
Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 524 - 23/11/2023 11:29:50
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@Viking - I don't think that team holidays/weekend breaks as prizes for winning the leagues are feasible, when you consider the likely costs.
Even a two-night weekend break somewhere in Ireland would likely cost at least €300 per person. Throw that open to 25 people from each winning squad (made up of players & managers/coaches/etc.), and you're looking at €7,500 per winning team. And with ten different league titles on offer, that means an overall prize fund for the league of €75,000.
Would be hugely difficult if not impossible to get anyway even close to that through sponsorship, and it would be a significant new and extra cost out of general funds too.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2256 - 23/11/2023 12:28:57
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@lefty - yeah, the more I look at it, the more I agree the Sarsfields proposal is mental.
You'd surely lose at least a few weekends due to bad weather in March/April, so you'd end up with a stack of midweek matches to be fixed as well. And no club player could have a proper holiday between March and October without missing a match that could hugely affect his team in the championship.
The difference between finishing 4th and 5th in the league there would be enormous. Finish 4th, and you're into a championship group where you'll make the quarter-finals, no matter what. Finish 5th, and you're into a championship group where only two out of four teams go through.
Now say the difference between finishing 4th and 5th was the two points you dropped in a match in late May or early June, where players A and B were on holiday, and players C, D and E were concentrating on college exams. Say you only lost that match by a point or two, and are fairly sure you would have won it if those five players had been available.
You'd be looking at a very different championship for your team just because those players wanted to do ordinary stuff outside of GAA, instead of being beholden to a system where they're expected to play 34 weeks in a row.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2256 - 23/11/2023 12:40:13
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Replying To Pikeman96: "@Viking - I don't think that team holidays/weekend breaks as prizes for winning the leagues are feasible, when you consider the likely costs.
Even a two-night weekend break somewhere in Ireland would likely cost at least €300 per person. Throw that open to 25 people from each winning squad (made up of players & managers/coaches/etc.), and you're looking at €7,500 per winning team. And with ten different league titles on offer, that means an overall prize fund for the league of €75,000.
Would be hugely difficult if not impossible to get anyway even close to that through sponsorship, and it would be a significant new and extra cost out of general funds too." You aren't looking at your costs from a corporate/club perspective at all there Pikeman. Out of season, I.e. before the middle/end of June and after the beginning of September, you will be able to get a Saturday/Sunday deal, with an independent hotel more likely, for 250 lads for closer to 200 pp than 300 pp 2 nights B and B. Probably over a few different weekends. Especially for a Saturday/Sunday combination rather than a Friday/Saturday one. Obviously you could offer the hotel/chain partial advertising/sponsorship of the Leagues to reduce the cost pp further, maybe not the headline sponsorship unless they were prepared to do really well on the room rates altogether. And the fact that most of those 250 would be putting significant money behind the bar would help also;-)
And likely be most of the lads won't be able to eat too much breakfast, if they got up early enough to make it for breakfast at all!!!!
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12109 - 23/11/2023 13:05:03
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Replying To Viking66: "You aren't looking at your costs from a corporate/club perspective at all there Pikeman. Out of season, I.e. before the middle/end of June and after the beginning of September, you will be able to get a Saturday/Sunday deal, with an independent hotel more likely, for 250 lads for closer to 200 pp than 300 pp 2 nights B and B. Probably over a few different weekends. Especially for a Saturday/Sunday combination rather than a Friday/Saturday one. Obviously you could offer the hotel/chain partial advertising/sponsorship of the Leagues to reduce the cost pp further, maybe not the headline sponsorship unless they were prepared to do really well on the room rates altogether. And the fact that most of those 250 would be putting significant money behind the bar would help also;-)
And likely be most of the lads won't be able to eat too much breakfast, if they got up early enough to make it for breakfast at all!!!!" Okay, but 250 people at €200 each would still be €50,000.
That's far in excess of any sponsorship deal for any of the championships, and possibly even more than all the sponsorships for all the championships combined. I know that a few years ago, it was possible to sponsor a Junior Championship for around €2,000 - so how likely would a business be to pay €5,000 to sponsor the "Junior Division" of a league?
€50,000 would also be far in excess of the "prize fund" for the championships, which in reality is really just the cost of the medals involved.
But you're right it would have to be out of season. If league titles are won in June, no team is going on a weekend away until they're out of the Championship. Probably wouldn't go around this time of year either, so the weekends away are most likely to be the following January/February.
Small chance they might be used as a bit of a training weekend to get ready for that year's league, but more likely they'd be used as a "bonding" session (i.e. a drinking session). Now you're basically looking for somebody to put up big money to sponsor league finals in June, so that the winners can go on the beer seven or eight months later.
I'm sorry, but I just don't see it happening.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2256 - 23/11/2023 13:58:51
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Okay, but 250 people at €200 each would still be €50,000.
That's far in excess of any sponsorship deal for any of the championships, and possibly even more than all the sponsorships for all the championships combined. I know that a few years ago, it was possible to sponsor a Junior Championship for around €2,000 - so how likely would a business be to pay €5,000 to sponsor the "Junior Division" of a league?
€50,000 would also be far in excess of the "prize fund" for the championships, which in reality is really just the cost of the medals involved.
But you're right it would have to be out of season. If league titles are won in June, no team is going on a weekend away until they're out of the Championship. Probably wouldn't go around this time of year either, so the weekends away are most likely to be the following January/February.
Small chance they might be used as a bit of a training weekend to get ready for that year's league, but more likely they'd be used as a "bonding" session (i.e. a drinking session). Now you're basically looking for somebody to put up big money to sponsor league finals in June, so that the winners can go on the beer seven or eight months later.
I'm sorry, but I just don't see it happening." I agree it's unlikely to get a sponsor to go to that kind of money. Maybe a cash prize for the players on the 10 teams then? Promotion and Relegation are good motivators, but aren't going to incentivise the players at a personal level to play harder during the League, or even play at all at that time of year.
Or just leave things as they are.
Up or down linking League and Championship won't work.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12109 - 23/11/2023 15:00:44
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Replying To Viking66: "I agree it's unlikely to get a sponsor to go to that kind of money. Maybe a cash prize for the players on the 10 teams then? Promotion and Relegation are good motivators, but aren't going to incentivise the players at a personal level to play harder during the League, or even play at all at that time of year.
Or just leave things as they are.
Up or down linking League and Championship won't work." Don't think cash prizes to players would even be allowed as it would surely breach rules on amateur status. But even say they were to get a voucher for something instead - how much would it need to be for before it would be a real incentive? Would somebody bust their gut throughout the entire League for the sake of a possible 50 quid's worth of something, or would it need to be at least €100? And €100 per player for even 20 players on 10 winning squads would still be €20,000.
We've saved a bit from the €75,000 figure I first came up with, but it's still a lot of money!
Anyway, I do agree with your last bit, that linking League and Championship won't work. It might be with best of intentions but there'd be all sorts of unfortunate consequences, and wouldn't be long before there'd be calls to unlink them again.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2256 - 23/11/2023 16:35:52
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For the sake of completion, two other proposals already in for next year's league, but which don't involve linking it with championship:
Oulart-The Ballagh
- A novel proposal to rename it the "Wexford Club Championship", as in a championship for club players
- 16 teams per Division - broadly, Div. 1 would be 12 senior teams plus four "top" Intermediate ones.
- Groups of four, so everybody gets three group games.
- Everybody also gets at least one knock-out game. Top two in each group go into quarter-finals, while bottom two go into relegation play-offs. Knock-outs progress as you'd expect.
- Schedule to be based on a three-week rota of football match, hurling match, week off. Their rationale is the week off allows the club to concentrate on their preferred code (either extra training or a practice match), or literally to just have a week off.
- The "Wexford County Championship" (i.e. the actual and "real" championship as we know it) would then follow on afterwards.
Ferns
- They just suggest going back to "the old way" - i.e. Div. 1 would be the 12 senior teams, where everybody would play the six teams not in their championship group.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2256 - 24/11/2023 12:20:30
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Replying To Pikeman96: "For the sake of completion, two other proposals already in for next year's league, but which don't involve linking it with championship:
Oulart-The Ballagh
- A novel proposal to rename it the "Wexford Club Championship", as in a championship for club players
- 16 teams per Division - broadly, Div. 1 would be 12 senior teams plus four "top" Intermediate ones.
- Groups of four, so everybody gets three group games.
- Everybody also gets at least one knock-out game. Top two in each group go into quarter-finals, while bottom two go into relegation play-offs. Knock-outs progress as you'd expect.
- Schedule to be based on a three-week rota of football match, hurling match, week off. Their rationale is the week off allows the club to concentrate on their preferred code (either extra training or a practice match), or literally to just have a week off.
- The "Wexford County Championship" (i.e. the actual and "real" championship as we know it) would then follow on afterwards.
Ferns
- They just suggest going back to "the old way" - i.e. Div. 1 would be the 12 senior teams, where everybody would play the six teams not in their championship group." The Ferns proposal takes away the only small incentive that there is currently. Promotion and Relegation. So I'm not supporting it.
The Oulart proposal is what I've proposed for our Championship numerous times on this forum and elsewhere. I think it should work well instead of what we have. :-)
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12109 - 24/11/2023 13:44:42
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Replying To Viking66: " Replying To Pikeman96: "For the sake of completion, two other proposals already in for next year's league, but which don't involve linking it with championship:
Oulart-The Ballagh
- A novel proposal to rename it the "Wexford Club Championship", as in a championship for club players
- 16 teams per Division - broadly, Div. 1 would be 12 senior teams plus four "top" Intermediate ones.
- Groups of four, so everybody gets three group games.
- Everybody also gets at least one knock-out game. Top two in each group go into quarter-finals, while bottom two go into relegation play-offs. Knock-outs progress as you'd expect.
- Schedule to be based on a three-week rota of football match, hurling match, week off. Their rationale is the week off allows the club to concentrate on their preferred code (either extra training or a practice match), or literally to just have a week off.
- The "Wexford County Championship" (i.e. the actual and "real" championship as we know it) would then follow on afterwards.
Ferns
- They just suggest going back to "the old way" - i.e. Div. 1 would be the 12 senior teams, where everybody would play the six teams not in their championship group." The Ferns proposal takes away the only small incentive that there is currently. Promotion and Relegation. So I'm not supporting it. The Oulart proposal is what I've proposed for our Championship numerous times on this forum and elsewhere. I think it should work well instead of what we have. :-)"
Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 524 - 24/11/2023 14:28:04
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Replying To Pikeman96: "For the sake of completion, two other proposals already in for next year's league, but which don't involve linking it with championship:
Oulart-The Ballagh
- A novel proposal to rename it the "Wexford Club Championship", as in a championship for club players
- 16 teams per Division - broadly, Div. 1 would be 12 senior teams plus four "top" Intermediate ones.
- Groups of four, so everybody gets three group games.
- Everybody also gets at least one knock-out game. Top two in each group go into quarter-finals, while bottom two go into relegation play-offs. Knock-outs progress as you'd expect.
- Schedule to be based on a three-week rota of football match, hurling match, week off. Their rationale is the week off allows the club to concentrate on their preferred code (either extra training or a practice match), or literally to just have a week off.
- The "Wexford County Championship" (i.e. the actual and "real" championship as we know it) would then follow on afterwards.
Ferns
- They just suggest going back to "the old way" - i.e. Div. 1 would be the 12 senior teams, where everybody would play the six teams not in their championship group." Oulart proposal worth trying I think.
Dont see any merit to the ferns proposal really, it removes one of the main elements of a league, promotion and relegation. Any league or league substitute must have promotion and relegation
Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 524 - 24/11/2023 14:29:36
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Replying To Onfor15: " Replying To Viking66: "[quote=Pikeman96: "For the sake of completion, two other proposals already in for next year's league, but which don't involve linking it with championship:
Oulart-The Ballagh
- A novel proposal to rename it the "Wexford Club Championship", as in a championship for club players
- 16 teams per Division - broadly, Div. 1 would be 12 senior teams plus four "top" Intermediate ones.
- Groups of four, so everybody gets three group games.
- Everybody also gets at least one knock-out game. Top two in each group go into quarter-finals, while bottom two go into relegation play-offs. Knock-outs progress as you'd expect.
- Schedule to be based on a three-week rota of football match, hurling match, week off. Their rationale is the week off allows the club to concentrate on their preferred code (either extra training or a practice match), or literally to just have a week off.
- The "Wexford County Championship" (i.e. the actual and "real" championship as we know it) would then follow on afterwards.
Ferns
- They just suggest going back to "the old way" - i.e. Div. 1 would be the 12 senior teams, where everybody would play the six teams not in their championship group." The Ferns proposal takes away the only small incentive that there is currently. Promotion and Relegation. So I'm not supporting it. The Oulart proposal is what I've proposed for our Championship numerous times on this forum and elsewhere. I think it should work well instead of what we have. :-)"
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12109 - 24/11/2023 15:15:00
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@Viking - yeah, think you might have misunderstood the Oulart proposal?
It's not a proposal to have 16 teams in each grade in the actual "proper" championship, like you've advocated for a few times. It's basically just a restructuring of the league so that each division there would have 16 teams, split into four groups of four.
Their idea to call it the "Club Championship" would really just be a cosmetic change. A bit of a lipstick on a pig job! :)
Am guessing the Ferns one might have been just to put the old way back on the table, if people weren't convinced enough by the new one that operated this year, or by any of the other new ideas either.
But as said in my original post - I think any way of linking league to championship, where the position you'd finish in from 1 to 12 would determine your seeding for championship, would do away with league promotion/relegation anyway. Surely the league divisions would have to mirror the championship gradings for that to happen.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2256 - 24/11/2023 15:52:22
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Replying To Pikeman96: "@Viking - yeah, think you might have misunderstood the Oulart proposal?
It's not a proposal to have 16 teams in each grade in the actual "proper" championship, like you've advocated for a few times. It's basically just a restructuring of the league so that each division there would have 16 teams, split into four groups of four.
Their idea to call it the "Club Championship" would really just be a cosmetic change. A bit of a lipstick on a pig job! :)
Am guessing the Ferns one might have been just to put the old way back on the table, if people weren't convinced enough by the new one that operated this year, or by any of the other new ideas either.
But as said in my original post - I think any way of linking league to championship, where the position you'd finish in from 1 to 12 would determine your seeding for championship, would do away with league promotion/relegation anyway. Surely the league divisions would have to mirror the championship gradings for that to happen." I didn't misunderstand it at all. The post clearly stated that the League would be replaced by a "club championship". You and Onfor15 have clearly misunderstood my post, where I stated that the structure they were proposing is exactly the same as the one I've been proposing for years for our championship structure. I also stated I'd be very happy with it as it would expose players from clubs lower down the chance to play against better opponents. I never said they were proposing it for our championship, especially as their proposal clearly states that this is not the case.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12109 - 24/11/2023 18:27:03
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@Viking (again) - your post above either wasn't there or I simply didn't see it when writing that last one.
Fair enough that you'd be happy to try this system even with the league (or so-called "Club Championship"), if not with the actual "real" championship.
Wouldn't always be the case though of lads getting to play against better opponents:
- Say Div. 1 started as the 12 senior teams and four intermediate teams. Those four teams would get to play up a level all right.
- But then Div. 2 would be the remaining eight intermediate teams, and eight from intermediate 'A'. While the intermediate 'A' teams would be playing up a level, the intermediate teams would actually be playing down.
- And Div. 3 would be four intermediate 'A' teams, and the 12 junior teams. So, 12 teams playing up a level to some degree, in that one of their three group games would be against a team from a higher championship grade. But four teams playing down all the time, as all three of their group games would be against teams from a lower championship grade. (This is based on assumption that the four intermediate 'A' teams would be seeded, so that there's one in each group).
Personally, I think thing most likely to find favour for the Oulart proposal is how every third week would be a free week to do your own thing.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2256 - 24/11/2023 19:40:55
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Our neighbours up in Kilkenny have their top 2 competitions for club league as you put it without county players where in each competition there's two groups of 6 , each group has 3 senior and 3 intermediate, the one that would have been generally the highest ranked cup in past had 2 intermediate clubs contest the final this year I'm told
BacksAndForwards (Wexford) - Posts: 34 - 24/11/2023 19:45:58
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