National Forum

Can Gaelic Football (Handball?) Be Saved?

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To togoutlads:  "I'm not asking you to apologise for watching other codes! I'm not a zealot! I watch and attend plenty of rugby and soccer myself, and what I'm saying is that Gaelic Football is a great game, even when tactics are deployed, and the blanket defence is getting found out by the better, more innovative teams at club and county level via various countermeasures we even coach successfully at juvenile level including angled / strike runners coming at 90 or 45 degrees off your lateral passes to punch holes in the blanket; drawing the blanket defence out a little then giving quick ball to target forwards inside for a mark (not a fan personally of forward mark), shot or attempt at the back door cut for goal or point; accurate shooting from distance - the blanket only works so far up the field or it gets too loose, so at adult level players with a big rangy boot can pick off scores from distance or if it drops short - ff line players are there to bounce on the incoming or breaking ball. There are loads of other methods of breaking the blanket and we're seeing a lot less aimless lateral possession now and more a move to get runners at speed and quick accurate ball to tear the blanket apart."
Most of the adult games I look at are plagued with blankets/ plenty of lateral uncontested handpassing in front of a blanket as was said earlier the spectators watching in near silence as its going on.
The age groups I've helped out with don't really have blankets and ronically (with the way the adult game has went) we sometimes have to tell the kids to hold their positions and not to be all bunching around the area where the ball is.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1361 - 12/03/2024 13:12:22    2530898

Link

Replying To TheFlaker:  "Mark isn't working. It was designed to encourage more long distance kicking. It isn't the case at all. It is being used for short distance kicks and has actually slowed down attacks and leading to less goal chances as players are stopping for a mark and not even looking for runners off the shoulder. Surely you have seen this yourself?"
Exactly. Con was getting into that habit but noticeable that he does not use it as often now. I don't have stats but I reckon Dublin are telling lads to take their chances and hopefully create a goal chance than stick the paw up. Even Paddy Small is less prone to recently!

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2590 - 12/03/2024 14:39:37    2530918

Link

Replying To togoutlads:  "I'm not asking you to apologise for watching other codes! I'm not a zealot! I watch and attend plenty of rugby and soccer myself, and what I'm saying is that Gaelic Football is a great game, even when tactics are deployed, and the blanket defence is getting found out by the better, more innovative teams at club and county level via various countermeasures we even coach successfully at juvenile level including angled / strike runners coming at 90 or 45 degrees off your lateral passes to punch holes in the blanket; drawing the blanket defence out a little then giving quick ball to target forwards inside for a mark (not a fan personally of forward mark), shot or attempt at the back door cut for goal or point; accurate shooting from distance - the blanket only works so far up the field or it gets too loose, so at adult level players with a big rangy boot can pick off scores from distance or if it drops short - ff line players are there to bounce on the incoming or breaking ball. There are loads of other methods of breaking the blanket and we're seeing a lot less aimless lateral possession now and more a move to get runners at speed and quick accurate ball to tear the blanket apart."
It's great that people help out in the GAA.
But if all coaches are dreaming of outsmarting each other they are not going to want a more open game.

GreenMan1987 (Meath) - Posts: 38 - 12/03/2024 17:33:12    2530937

Link

Replying To bdbuddah:  "I think any rule that requires referees/ officials to monitor players positions continously while the game is in play will be difficult to implement.

It would be hard for players while the game is in flow to be aware of exactly how many other players are in a specific area."
I try to keep it simple - '4-on-4' before the ball enters inside the 45 metre line - once the ball enters the zone is unlimited - once the ball is outside the 45, player count inside is not monitored - it's really like an Offside Rule at the 45 only.

I take the point that it may be difficult to always implement (e.g. Club Junior C games).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2632 - 13/03/2024 02:46:02    2530978

Link

Replying To omahant:  "I try to keep it simple - '4-on-4' before the ball enters inside the 45 metre line - once the ball enters the zone is unlimited - once the ball is outside the 45, player count inside is not monitored - it's really like an Offside Rule at the 45 only.

I take the point that it may be difficult to always implement (e.g. Club Junior C games)."
4 on 4 inside the 45 sounds very rigid. Is it advantage or a free out if the attacking team have a fifth attacker inside the 45 to balance the 4 defenders and goalkeeper, or a 6th or more attacking player or make iflt 5 v 5, 6v6? Some teams are better than others at working ways out to get past a blanket defence and get scores. It'll be interesting to see how Jim McGuinness will do it seeing as previously dabbled in the blanket defence dark arts. With his UEFA licence and observations of other counties and other sports he should have a few tricks up his magic sleeve.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7373 - 14/03/2024 09:19:52    2531090

Link

Replying To omahant:  "I try to keep it simple - '4-on-4' before the ball enters inside the 45 metre line - once the ball enters the zone is unlimited - once the ball is outside the 45, player count inside is not monitored - it's really like an Offside Rule at the 45 only.

I take the point that it may be difficult to always implement (e.g. Club Junior C games)."
Trying to monitor that there are 4 players from each team in an area is more difficult than spotting if one player is offside in soccer. I think it would be tough for players and referees as I find it hard to picture it when the game is flowing.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1361 - 14/03/2024 15:50:54    2531140

Link

Replying To bdbuddah:  "Trying to monitor that there are 4 players from each team in an area is more difficult than spotting if one player is offside in soccer. I think it would be tough for players and referees as I find it hard to picture it when the game is flowing."
You're sure right there bdbuddah, the only way a ref could monitor this is if the game was reduced to 4 aside or if it was walking only, no running allowed.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 686 - 14/03/2024 16:17:38    2531144

Link

Anyone watching the Kerry Roscommon league game. It's really good to be honest. Teams are getting men back behind the ball but they are also putting pressure on the ball and not letting there be uncontested passing. When a defence turns the ball over they are clearly attempting to break quickly.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4245 - 17/03/2024 14:22:18    2531671

Link

Replying To GreenandRed:  "4 on 4 inside the 45 sounds very rigid. Is it advantage or a free out if the attacking team have a fifth attacker inside the 45 to balance the 4 defenders and goalkeeper, or a 6th or more attacking player or make iflt 5 v 5, 6v6? Some teams are better than others at working ways out to get past a blanket defence and get scores. It'll be interesting to see how Jim McGuinness will do it seeing as previously dabbled in the blanket defence dark arts. With his UEFA licence and observations of other counties and other sports he should have a few tricks up his magic sleeve."
My idea is that, not counting the goalkeeper, neither team can have a 5th player inside. I'd have a free in or out at the 20m line for violation. If both teams violate (5v5, 5v6, 6v6 etc), I'd have ref throw in the ball at 45.

Teams could target a 4-6-4 formation, but to keep monitoring simple, violations "for offside" can only occur when the ball enters the 45. Given a pitch's length (e.g. Croke Park 145m), this breaks down as 45-55-45, with each player covering between 9m and 11m on average. I'm hoping the game would be open and exciting.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2632 - 17/03/2024 15:58:06    2531689

Link

Replying To bdbuddah:  "Trying to monitor that there are 4 players from each team in an area is more difficult than spotting if one player is offside in soccer. I think it would be tough for players and referees as I find it hard to picture it when the game is flowing."
I agree counting eight individual players would be difficult, but 'four marked pairs' is the way I'm thinking about it - would that be manageable?

Would it be better to have a broken line across the 'top of the D' at a new '33m line' and have 3-on-3 inside that to ease the count?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2632 - 17/03/2024 16:03:45    2531691

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "Anyone watching the Kerry Roscommon league game. It's really good to be honest. Teams are getting men back behind the ball but they are also putting pressure on the ball and not letting there be uncontested passing. When a defence turns the ball over they are clearly attempting to break quickly."
Is this an example of 'we get lucky once in a while', or 'all coaches will evolve to this'?
I really think solid rule changes are required to have the game operate 'always' within parameters we desire while also allowing ample scope for developing new tactics. I'm hoping the Gavin Team smart minds will find the magic potion.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2632 - 17/03/2024 16:11:02    2531692

Link

Replying To omahant:  "Is this an example of 'we get lucky once in a while', or 'all coaches will evolve to this'?
I really think solid rule changes are required to have the game operate 'always' within parameters we desire while also allowing ample scope for developing new tactics. I'm hoping the Gavin Team smart minds will find the magic potion."
You're a pessimist trying to suggest rule changes for a problem that isn't as widespread as some would like us to believe especially in the media. No need to change rules when some coaches promote open expasive football and how to get scores past blanket defences.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7373 - 17/03/2024 16:50:04    2531700

Link

Replying To GreenandRed:  "You're a pessimist trying to suggest rule changes for a problem that isn't as widespread as some would like us to believe especially in the media. No need to change rules when some coaches promote open expasive football and how to get scores past blanket defences."
"Some" is not good enough - and are those coaches in the minority?
Blanket defence should not be allowed as a viable strategy to counter an opposing team.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2632 - 17/03/2024 18:20:23    2531722

Link

Replying To omahant:  ""Some" is not good enough - and are those coaches in the minority?
Blanket defence should not be allowed as a viable strategy to counter an opposing team."
Some match today with United pipping Liverpool

Jack L (None) - Posts: 3101 - 17/03/2024 19:01:15    2531735

Link

Replying To omahant:  ""Some" is not good enough - and are those coaches in the minority?
Blanket defence should not be allowed as a viable strategy to counter an opposing team."
I don't know, the trend for a while has been better.

If the games between evenly matched teams were mostly bad I'd say it's a rules issue but I don't think they are.

I think the championship is a bit rubbish because it's not that exciting and the top teams play each other a lot in February and March and then very little until June.

Early stages of the championship are abysmal it just doesn't seem like a rules issue to me though.

Honestly as well people comparing Gaelic negatively compared to Rugby on this thread I'd be sceptical about. The World up was just won by South Africa and they were very far from playing wide expansive Rugby. The recent 6 Nations was poor enough quality wise but had a few stories with us losing to England and Italy having a good championship but you'd really be hard pressed to say it was a great competition.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4245 - 18/03/2024 10:25:10    2531876

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't know, the trend for a while has been better.

If the games between evenly matched teams were mostly bad I'd say it's a rules issue but I don't think they are.

I think the championship is a bit rubbish because it's not that exciting and the top teams play each other a lot in February and March and then very little until June.

Early stages of the championship are abysmal it just doesn't seem like a rules issue to me though.

Honestly as well people comparing Gaelic negatively compared to Rugby on this thread I'd be sceptical about. The World up was just won by South Africa and they were very far from playing wide expansive Rugby. The recent 6 Nations was poor enough quality wise but had a few stories with us losing to England and Italy having a good championship but you'd really be hard pressed to say it was a great competition."
South Africa and New Zealand did what they had to do to get to the final and if that means not throwing the ball out the line and taking a few cards to get there they'll do it. Unlike ourselves and I would say Armagh. We can be good to watch but won't stop playing lovely football and grind out the results like the Dubs can and I think well-coached Derry and Donegal will show this year. Those grind out result games can be good to be at, they'll get the tension and aggression levels up and might not be high scoring. But some of the TV audience mightn't like it remotely and online opinions will be negative.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7373 - 18/03/2024 15:38:43    2531932

Link

Replying To GreenandRed:  "South Africa and New Zealand did what they had to do to get to the final and if that means not throwing the ball out the line and taking a few cards to get there they'll do it. Unlike ourselves and I would say Armagh. We can be good to watch but won't stop playing lovely football and grind out the results like the Dubs can and I think well-coached Derry and Donegal will show this year. Those grind out result games can be good to be at, they'll get the tension and aggression levels up and might not be high scoring. But some of the TV audience mightn't like it remotely and online opinions will be negative."
Yeah I do agree with a lot of that.

I'm not against enjoying a tight tense game either and they happen in all sports.

The just seem to be less tolerated in Gaelic football by people on here at times.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4245 - 18/03/2024 16:35:09    2531946

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't know, the trend for a while has been better.

If the games between evenly matched teams were mostly bad I'd say it's a rules issue but I don't think they are.

I think the championship is a bit rubbish because it's not that exciting and the top teams play each other a lot in February and March and then very little until June.

Early stages of the championship are abysmal it just doesn't seem like a rules issue to me though.

Honestly as well people comparing Gaelic negatively compared to Rugby on this thread I'd be sceptical about. The World up was just won by South Africa and they were very far from playing wide expansive Rugby. The recent 6 Nations was poor enough quality wise but had a few stories with us losing to England and Italy having a good championship but you'd really be hard pressed to say it was a great competition."
When a team has the likes of David Clifford, Con O'Callaghan or Damien Comer that can win games, blanket defence is counter productive. As you know, the teams that don't have such "winners" are the problem - but no team should be able to "freeze up" the game within the rules.

Another rule idea -
With pitch divided into three zones (behind each 45 & between them), team in possession has a max three passes (by hand or foot) in each zone before being required to move the ball forward to another zone. Following three passes in the attacking zone (beyond the attacking 45), the team must register a score, wide or turnover, or concede a free if a 4th pass/possession is made.

Poor Prov SFCs and badly structured inter-county season is well known but a separate issue.

I made some rugby comments.
Rugby quality varies - e.g. England played much better in 6 Nations compared to the World Cup (pre SF), and of course, Wales was poor in the former.
BUT I have no doubt - the rules now contribute to a much better free flowing game compared to 70s/80s with clogged rucks and mauls no longer allowed. I think the World Rugby Council is innovative and tweaks rules on an ongoing basis to improve the spectacle. Kudos to them!

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2632 - 18/03/2024 17:33:53    2531960

Link

Replying To omahant:  "I try to keep it simple - '4-on-4' before the ball enters inside the 45 metre line - once the ball enters the zone is unlimited - once the ball is outside the 45, player count inside is not monitored - it's really like an Offside Rule at the 45 only.

I take the point that it may be difficult to always implement (e.g. Club Junior C games)."
That can only work in games with all officials micced up which is a tiny pwrcent of games. Unpracticle in 99+% of gamew

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3514 - 18/03/2024 17:37:54    2531962

Link

Replying To omahant:  "When a team has the likes of David Clifford, Con O'Callaghan or Damien Comer that can win games, blanket defence is counter productive. As you know, the teams that don't have such "winners" are the problem - but no team should be able to "freeze up" the game within the rules.

Another rule idea -
With pitch divided into three zones (behind each 45 & between them), team in possession has a max three passes (by hand or foot) in each zone before being required to move the ball forward to another zone. Following three passes in the attacking zone (beyond the attacking 45), the team must register a score, wide or turnover, or concede a free if a 4th pass/possession is made.

Poor Prov SFCs and badly structured inter-county season is well known but a separate issue.

I made some rugby comments.
Rugby quality varies - e.g. England played much better in 6 Nations compared to the World Cup (pre SF), and of course, Wales was poor in the former.
BUT I have no doubt - the rules now contribute to a much better free flowing game compared to 70s/80s with clogged rucks and mauls no longer allowed. I think the World Rugby Council is innovative and tweaks rules on an ongoing basis to improve the spectacle. Kudos to them!"
Its not so much that world rugby tweak laws on ongoing basis but that they do regular closed trials in specific countries or even competitions within countries before expanding trials of laws to entire world
Gaa should do that far more in college competitions and some senior club competitions.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3514 - 18/03/2024 17:55:09    2531965

Link