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Replying To Whammo86: "I hear you and don't disagree with a lot of what you are saying. I'd also just be wary that you don't want to restrict the evolution of the game too much by keeping players to zones. You are starting to make the game into a training situation or netball style flow to it and I'd say a more fluid game could be better.
I still think a big issue is a lack of the good teams playing one another and the same can be said at club level at times too." I said get players to line up in positions for kickouts like they do for throw ins. I've said I don't think it would work when the game is in play.
The first time I heard it as an idea was from Joe Brolly and it seemed a realistic way of tackling the blanket.
I think competition structures are a separate issue.
Blankets are an issue in club games as well as inter county games.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1363 - 09/03/2024 22:53:53
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With ireland being so competitive at rugby and it getting so much attention it can hide the fact that rugby isn't thriving everywhere. Its dying a death in Australia with super rugby crowds being pitiful. 3 clubs going bust in England. The Welsh rugby union is struggling pretty badly. Ultimately the sa have won the last two world cups in a pretty bludgeoning fashion that aint that good to look at. The scrum are pretty much a lottery and a referees interpretation has a major bearing on a game. This is not to really criticise rugby but making the point it's plenty challenges of its own when taken outside of our little gold fish bowl in ireland.
In relation to gaelic football ask yourself what you want in a game rather than saying add this rule or remove that rule. Tactics and new ideas come into every sport and typically by a lesser team looking for an advantage. Think down in the 60s, tyrone a little in the naughties though the fact they were just good often gets overlooked. Donegal definitely stole a march in mcguinnesses first term. The all out defence initially and then the counter attack system that won them an all ireland. Teams ultimately though started to match the set up and it ended up in some horrendous matches. Two on the ulster finals against tyrone and derry being truly awful.
You don't want that and people generally don't want handball as this topic title mentions. So therefore you want to see more kicking and probably catching. Strangely the forward mark actually rewards a kick pass and a catch. It certainly not a perfect rule but if it wasn't in place there would be even more hand passing. If a team has 15 men inside the 45 there is no way on earth you're going to kick pass into that. It's also pretty much impossible for a player to take on their marker. So it's back to the hand passing and the monotony that brings.
Ulsterchamps_32 (Donegal) - Posts: 698 - 10/03/2024 00:52:47
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Replying To bdbuddah: "I said get players to line up in positions for kickouts like they do for throw ins. I've said I don't think it would work when the game is in play.
The first time I heard it as an idea was from Joe Brolly and it seemed a realistic way of tackling the blanket.
I think competition structures are a separate issue.
Blankets are an issue in club games as well as inter county games." That'd make it like a training game also.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4247 - 10/03/2024 15:07:56
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "Did the goys choke again tonight? Maybe they should hypnotise them before crunch games so they let the pot herbs wreck their heads?" What's your definition of choke?
Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 10/03/2024 15:28:45
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Replying To bdbuddah: "Looking at your last few posts you are kind of making the case of why we need serious changes to the rule book to force the game out of the direction it has been going for years.
1. Your saying a few games a year are good.
2. Your saying in the team you manage every team you face is super defensive so you have to play keep ball.
3. Your saying your are having success playing this way but people still criticise you.
Without using the rulebook to dismantle blanket defenses the game will continue to sink.
Your right in saying the managers will play a style to make it more likely they will win.
It's up to the rule makers to change the rules when needed. In rugby they seem to have no problem changing the rulebook to keep the game going in the right direction." Yup, rugby union 70s/80s v 20s - it's night and day.
A few of those wonderful changes:
- Releasing the ball when tackled to the ground.
- Throw in to line out by team that kicked to touch from a penalty.
- Goal line drop instead of from 22 meters incentivises defence to work the ball out.
- "Use It" 5-second ref call keeps the game moving along as the scrum half takes the ball out from the ruck to behind the hind leg.
- 50/22 kick gives the throw in to line out by team that kicked to touch 'on the bounce' from own half (this inspired my two-line gaelic kick).
- Game clock expires only when the ball is dead (could be a good change for gaelic too).
There are probably a few others that didn't come to mind.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2633 - 10/03/2024 16:26:53
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Replying To bdbuddah: "Looking at your last few posts you are kind of making the case of why we need serious changes to the rule book to force the game out of the direction it has been going for years.
1. Your saying a few games a year are good.
2. Your saying in the team you manage every team you face is super defensive so you have to play keep ball.
3. Your saying your are having success playing this way but people still criticise you.
Without using the rulebook to dismantle blanket defenses the game will continue to sink.
Your right in saying the managers will play a style to make it more likely they will win.
It's up to the rule makers to change the rules when needed. In rugby they seem to have no problem changing the rulebook to keep the game going in the right direction." Yup, rugby union 70s/80s v 20s - it's night and day.
A few of those wonderful changes:
- Releasing the ball when tackled to the ground.
- Throw in to line out by team that kicked to touch from a penalty.
- Goal line drop instead of from 22 meters incentivises defence to work the ball out.
- "Use It" 5-second ref call keeps the game moving along as the scrum half takes the ball out from the ruck to behind the hind leg.
- 50/22 kick gives the throw in to line out by team that kicked to touch 'on the bounce' from own half (this inspired my two-line gaelic kick).
- Game clock expires only when the ball is dead (could be a good change for gaelic too).
There are probably a few others that didn't come to mind.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2633 - 10/03/2024 16:30:14
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So, we've become brilliant in the press and at our keyboards and phones at criticising Gaelic Football and 'how hard it has become to watch' and whatever other cliches you can throw in there and I just want to contrast that with how soccer manage their product, with a small example of today's coverage of Man City v Liverpool. I'd seen some of it on tv and then heard some of the closing minutes on the car radio. Some of the descriptions today that were repeated like a mantra on television and radio - 'an Anfield epic'; 'epic game'; 'drama to match anything we've seen in the premier league'; 'heartstopping' etc etc. So, for someone joining the coverage late, it sounded like this game was up there in the pantheon of all time great clashes, and the final score after 99+ minutes of soccer, ah, 1:1. That's two scores. I did the maths, see. So, two teams whose squads cost a combined and arguably obscene €1.83 Billion Euro gave us two scores in an 'epic'. €1.83 Billion of full time, hyper paid talent. That's billion with a B, now! (Manchester City £899 million Stg and
Liverpool £664million) served up two scores in 100 minutes of soccer and the media, pundits, lads with jerseys in pubs etc rave about it. I like soccer but I'm afraid it's the Emperor's new clothes on speed - the most over monetised and over hyped sport when compared with our superb amateur games, which I have zero hesitation in saying are vastly superior spectacles in pure sporting terms when compared with soccer (and rugby). So why do we keep kicking the lard out of Gaelic football and sometimes hurling on multiple fronts, convincing adults and kids alike that our games need saving and they're not entertaining etc? We need to stop. Our two sports are the best in the world. Minor tweaks can happen from time to time but they don't 'need to be saved', thank you.
togoutlads (Galway) - Posts: 911 - 10/03/2024 18:38:32
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Replying To Whammo86: "That'd make it like a training game also." Feel like a training game any more than any of the mark rules introduced in last few years?.
Tell players from the 1980's or before how much easier referee's give frees against the man in possession today than in their day and they would say today's game feels like a training game (funny enough thinking about it if defenders were allowed play like they were back then the possession game would be far more difficult).
Once players got used to it you'll hardly notice as they will just make sure to be in position for kickouts as it will cost their team otherwise.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1363 - 10/03/2024 19:34:38
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Replying To togoutlads: "So, we've become brilliant in the press and at our keyboards and phones at criticising Gaelic Football and 'how hard it has become to watch' and whatever other cliches you can throw in there and I just want to contrast that with how soccer manage their product, with a small example of today's coverage of Man City v Liverpool. I'd seen some of it on tv and then heard some of the closing minutes on the car radio. Some of the descriptions today that were repeated like a mantra on television and radio - 'an Anfield epic'; 'epic game'; 'drama to match anything we've seen in the premier league'; 'heartstopping' etc etc. So, for someone joining the coverage late, it sounded like this game was up there in the pantheon of all time great clashes, and the final score after 99+ minutes of soccer, ah, 1:1. That's two scores. I did the maths, see. So, two teams whose squads cost a combined and arguably obscene €1.83 Billion Euro gave us two scores in an 'epic'. €1.83 Billion of full time, hyper paid talent. That's billion with a B, now! (Manchester City £899 million Stg and
Liverpool £664million) served up two scores in 100 minutes of soccer and the media, pundits, lads with jerseys in pubs etc rave about it. I like soccer but I'm afraid it's the Emperor's new clothes on speed - the most over monetised and over hyped sport when compared with our superb amateur games, which I have zero hesitation in saying are vastly superior spectacles in pure sporting terms when compared with soccer (and rugby). So why do we keep kicking the lard out of Gaelic football and sometimes hurling on multiple fronts, convincing adults and kids alike that our games need saving and they're not entertaining etc? We need to stop. Our two sports are the best in the world. Minor tweaks can happen from time to time but they don't 'need to be saved', thank you." Thank God you said this. I'd still watch the worst two teams in Ireland play before I'd watch premiership and paint dry before rugby.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2018 - 10/03/2024 19:38:35
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Replying To togoutlads: "So, we've become brilliant in the press and at our keyboards and phones at criticising Gaelic Football and 'how hard it has become to watch' and whatever other cliches you can throw in there and I just want to contrast that with how soccer manage their product, with a small example of today's coverage of Man City v Liverpool. I'd seen some of it on tv and then heard some of the closing minutes on the car radio. Some of the descriptions today that were repeated like a mantra on television and radio - 'an Anfield epic'; 'epic game'; 'drama to match anything we've seen in the premier league'; 'heartstopping' etc etc. So, for someone joining the coverage late, it sounded like this game was up there in the pantheon of all time great clashes, and the final score after 99+ minutes of soccer, ah, 1:1. That's two scores. I did the maths, see. So, two teams whose squads cost a combined and arguably obscene €1.83 Billion Euro gave us two scores in an 'epic'. €1.83 Billion of full time, hyper paid talent. That's billion with a B, now! (Manchester City £899 million Stg and
Liverpool £664million) served up two scores in 100 minutes of soccer and the media, pundits, lads with jerseys in pubs etc rave about it. I like soccer but I'm afraid it's the Emperor's new clothes on speed - the most over monetised and over hyped sport when compared with our superb amateur games, which I have zero hesitation in saying are vastly superior spectacles in pure sporting terms when compared with soccer (and rugby). So why do we keep kicking the lard out of Gaelic football and sometimes hurling on multiple fronts, convincing adults and kids alike that our games need saving and they're not entertaining etc? We need to stop. Our two sports are the best in the world. Minor tweaks can happen from time to time but they don't 'need to be saved', thank you." I'm more or less with you, not sure if we have the two best games in the world, no doubt there are other opinions on that but gaelic games have and continue to entertain us no end and we are certainly medal contenders when it comes to knocking our favourite sports.
sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 686 - 10/03/2024 19:48:01
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Replying To togoutlads: "So, we've become brilliant in the press and at our keyboards and phones at criticising Gaelic Football and 'how hard it has become to watch' and whatever other cliches you can throw in there and I just want to contrast that with how soccer manage their product, with a small example of today's coverage of Man City v Liverpool. I'd seen some of it on tv and then heard some of the closing minutes on the car radio. Some of the descriptions today that were repeated like a mantra on television and radio - 'an Anfield epic'; 'epic game'; 'drama to match anything we've seen in the premier league'; 'heartstopping' etc etc. So, for someone joining the coverage late, it sounded like this game was up there in the pantheon of all time great clashes, and the final score after 99+ minutes of soccer, ah, 1:1. That's two scores. I did the maths, see. So, two teams whose squads cost a combined and arguably obscene €1.83 Billion Euro gave us two scores in an 'epic'. €1.83 Billion of full time, hyper paid talent. That's billion with a B, now! (Manchester City £899 million Stg and
Liverpool £664million) served up two scores in 100 minutes of soccer and the media, pundits, lads with jerseys in pubs etc rave about it. I like soccer but I'm afraid it's the Emperor's new clothes on speed - the most over monetised and over hyped sport when compared with our superb amateur games, which I have zero hesitation in saying are vastly superior spectacles in pure sporting terms when compared with soccer (and rugby). So why do we keep kicking the lard out of Gaelic football and sometimes hurling on multiple fronts, convincing adults and kids alike that our games need saving and they're not entertaining etc? We need to stop. Our two sports are the best in the world. Minor tweaks can happen from time to time but they don't 'need to be saved', thank you." Apples and oranges my friend.
I watched that game and enjoyed it.
Different sports are compelling for different reasons, be they football, hurling, soccer or rugby or other sports.
Different sports have different identities.
What always made gaelic football compelling and great was the helter-skelter nature of the sports.
Mícheál Ó Muircheartaigh describing what was good about football and hurling said you could look away from a football or hurling match for a minute and a lot would have happened. In the era of blanket defenses this is less the case than it used to be.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1363 - 10/03/2024 20:16:42
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Replying To bdbuddah: "Feel like a training game any more than any of the mark rules introduced in last few years?.
Tell players from the 1980's or before how much easier referee's give frees against the man in possession today than in their day and they would say today's game feels like a training game (funny enough thinking about it if defenders were allowed play like they were back then the possession game would be far more difficult).
Once players got used to it you'll hardly notice as they will just make sure to be in position for kickouts as it will cost their team otherwise." I mean how much easier referees give frees to the man in possession nowadays compared to the 1980s.
Typo.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1363 - 10/03/2024 20:19:29
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Replying To togoutlads: "So, we've become brilliant in the press and at our keyboards and phones at criticising Gaelic Football and 'how hard it has become to watch' and whatever other cliches you can throw in there and I just want to contrast that with how soccer manage their product, with a small example of today's coverage of Man City v Liverpool. I'd seen some of it on tv and then heard some of the closing minutes on the car radio. Some of the descriptions today that were repeated like a mantra on television and radio - 'an Anfield epic'; 'epic game'; 'drama to match anything we've seen in the premier league'; 'heartstopping' etc etc. So, for someone joining the coverage late, it sounded like this game was up there in the pantheon of all time great clashes, and the final score after 99+ minutes of soccer, ah, 1:1. That's two scores. I did the maths, see. So, two teams whose squads cost a combined and arguably obscene €1.83 Billion Euro gave us two scores in an 'epic'. €1.83 Billion of full time, hyper paid talent. That's billion with a B, now! (Manchester City £899 million Stg and
Liverpool £664million) served up two scores in 100 minutes of soccer and the media, pundits, lads with jerseys in pubs etc rave about it. I like soccer but I'm afraid it's the Emperor's new clothes on speed - the most over monetised and over hyped sport when compared with our superb amateur games, which I have zero hesitation in saying are vastly superior spectacles in pure sporting terms when compared with soccer (and rugby). So why do we keep kicking the lard out of Gaelic football and sometimes hurling on multiple fronts, convincing adults and kids alike that our games need saving and they're not entertaining etc? We need to stop. Our two sports are the best in the world. Minor tweaks can happen from time to time but they don't 'need to be saved', thank you." What a load of nonsense…. I watched the soccer match today and it was great stuff… end to end at great pace… The amount of scores in a game mean nothing… it's all about exciting play and this is something you just don't get anymore with Gaelic football…at most games you could hear a pin drop in the crowd with boredom…. just look at the huge drop off in attendance figures for county games apart from All Ireland final day when the place is half full of people who wouldn't even know who was playing… It's only those in denial who can't see the problem with Gaelic football at the moment…..
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1960 - 10/03/2024 20:29:09
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "What a load of nonsense…. I watched the soccer match today and it was great stuff… end to end at great pace… The amount of scores in a game mean nothing… it's all about exciting play and this is something you just don't get anymore with Gaelic football…at most games you could hear a pin drop in the crowd with boredom…. just look at the huge drop off in attendance figures for county games apart from All Ireland final day when the place is half full of people who wouldn't even know who was playing… It's only those in denial who can't see the problem with Gaelic football at the moment….." Today's soccer game involved 2 of the top teams so should be good. I can't readily recall a poor game involving between say Dublin, Mayo or Kerry. Maybe you see too many Cavan games???
sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 686 - 10/03/2024 21:22:04
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The easiest rule change that doesn't make the referees job any harder, is to change to 13 aside and create a little bit more space for players to attack and reduce the effectiveness of blanket defences.
I would reduce the allowable subs from 5 to 3, which would be less advantageous to the big counties with stronger panels and help weaker counties be slightly more competitive. Managers won't have the fresh legs option as they will have hold back in case of players getting injured.
Also reduce panels sizes to 19, 13 plus 6 subs to reduce the costs of running county teams.
Goals should count as 5 points to encourage managers to take more tactical risks.
Points scored from play outside the 45 and sidelines (Maurice Fitz) count as 2 points to discourage blanket defences, freekicks outside the 45 only count as 1 to discourage game being slowed down taking keeper up to hit it etc.
Points scored from play inside the 45 count as 1 same as now.
45s count at 1 same as is now.
Again none of these rule changes will make the refs job any harder.
Allow the Auzzie rules high catch where a players using an opponents back to elevate him or her higher into the air to catch the ball, it's a great spectacle to see and should be brought in. I would get rid of the mark and allow the Auzzie rules high catch to keep the game moving. The stop in play from the Mark reduces the atmosphere of the game, so try cut out stoppages where possible.
Regarding bookings and sendings off, A instigator must receive the same punishment as a retaliator, this will stamp out alot of the dark arts and dirty play that goes on.
With Hawkeye available now, umpires at all county Matches and club county finals should be referees who have the training and experience to call out offending players to be booked or sent off. To many umpires don't have skills and balls to instruct the match referee off an offence that merits a booking or a sending off.
Alot of the other rules change mentioned in previous posts would improve the game but unfortunately to difficult for referees to implement.
Also pay referees to encourage more people to take up refereeing.
25 euro per Underage game
50 euro per senior club game
100 euro underage county game
200 euro senior county game
Tirchonailabu56 (Donegal) - Posts: 17 - 10/03/2024 23:36:23
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Replying To sligo joe: "Today's soccer game involved 2 of the top teams so should be good. I can't readily recall a poor game involving between say Dublin, Mayo or Kerry. Maybe you see too many Cavan games???" You obviously don't see too many Sligo games if you think GAA is entertaining….
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1960 - 11/03/2024 07:18:25
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Replying To Tirchonailabu56: "The easiest rule change that doesn't make the referees job any harder, is to change to 13 aside and create a little bit more space for players to attack and reduce the effectiveness of blanket defences.
I would reduce the allowable subs from 5 to 3, which would be less advantageous to the big counties with stronger panels and help weaker counties be slightly more competitive. Managers won't have the fresh legs option as they will have hold back in case of players getting injured.
Also reduce panels sizes to 19, 13 plus 6 subs to reduce the costs of running county teams.
Goals should count as 5 points to encourage managers to take more tactical risks.
Points scored from play outside the 45 and sidelines (Maurice Fitz) count as 2 points to discourage blanket defences, freekicks outside the 45 only count as 1 to discourage game being slowed down taking keeper up to hit it etc.
Points scored from play inside the 45 count as 1 same as now.
45s count at 1 same as is now.
Again none of these rule changes will make the refs job any harder.
Allow the Auzzie rules high catch where a players using an opponents back to elevate him or her higher into the air to catch the ball, it's a great spectacle to see and should be brought in. I would get rid of the mark and allow the Auzzie rules high catch to keep the game moving. The stop in play from the Mark reduces the atmosphere of the game, so try cut out stoppages where possible.
Regarding bookings and sendings off, A instigator must receive the same punishment as a retaliator, this will stamp out alot of the dark arts and dirty play that goes on.
With Hawkeye available now, umpires at all county Matches and club county finals should be referees who have the training and experience to call out offending players to be booked or sent off. To many umpires don't have skills and balls to instruct the match referee off an offence that merits a booking or a sending off.
Alot of the other rules change mentioned in previous posts would improve the game but unfortunately to difficult for referees to implement.
Also pay referees to encourage more people to take up refereeing.
25 euro per Underage game
50 euro per senior club game
100 euro underage county game
200 euro senior county game" Paying refs wont encourage more to take up whistle unless you combine that with better training and guidance from county boards and far stricter punishments for abuse from players, coaches and spectators
Reducing subs isnt the answer as it doesnt help player welfare. These are amateurs still!!
Reducing bench is a good idea. But you will still have large extended squads regardless.
On foul play it cant be and wont ever be as simple as saying instigator must get same punishment as retaliator
Umpires for all county games should be trained refs
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3514 - 11/03/2024 10:08:31
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Replying To Tirchonailabu56: "The easiest rule change that doesn't make the referees job any harder, is to change to 13 aside and create a little bit more space for players to attack and reduce the effectiveness of blanket defences.
I would reduce the allowable subs from 5 to 3, which would be less advantageous to the big counties with stronger panels and help weaker counties be slightly more competitive. Managers won't have the fresh legs option as they will have hold back in case of players getting injured.
Also reduce panels sizes to 19, 13 plus 6 subs to reduce the costs of running county teams.
Goals should count as 5 points to encourage managers to take more tactical risks.
Points scored from play outside the 45 and sidelines (Maurice Fitz) count as 2 points to discourage blanket defences, freekicks outside the 45 only count as 1 to discourage game being slowed down taking keeper up to hit it etc.
Points scored from play inside the 45 count as 1 same as now.
45s count at 1 same as is now.
Again none of these rule changes will make the refs job any harder.
Allow the Auzzie rules high catch where a players using an opponents back to elevate him or her higher into the air to catch the ball, it's a great spectacle to see and should be brought in. I would get rid of the mark and allow the Auzzie rules high catch to keep the game moving. The stop in play from the Mark reduces the atmosphere of the game, so try cut out stoppages where possible.
Regarding bookings and sendings off, A instigator must receive the same punishment as a retaliator, this will stamp out alot of the dark arts and dirty play that goes on.
With Hawkeye available now, umpires at all county Matches and club county finals should be referees who have the training and experience to call out offending players to be booked or sent off. To many umpires don't have skills and balls to instruct the match referee off an offence that merits a booking or a sending off.
Alot of the other rules change mentioned in previous posts would improve the game but unfortunately to difficult for referees to implement.
Also pay referees to encourage more people to take up refereeing.
25 euro per Underage game
50 euro per senior club game
100 euro underage county game
200 euro senior county game" They already get paid. And it is 30-40 for underage games already.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7908 - 11/03/2024 10:14:42
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "You obviously don't see too many Sligo games if you think GAA is entertaining…." I'm a Dub living here in Sligo and when I go to Sligo games I'm realistic I don't expect div1 standards from div3 counties but that doesn't mean bad games. I went to Sligo's last home game v Antrim, good exciting game with 35 scores ( oh I forgot, according to you scores mean nothing, what a statement).
And you arrogantly take a swipe at All Ireland final attendances that you say know nothing. Of the 82000 tickets, 60k are distributed to the clubs via County Boards, 12k to organisations like LGFA, Handball, camogie and 10k corporate.
sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 686 - 11/03/2024 10:26:36
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Replying To bdbuddah: "Apples and oranges my friend.
I watched that game and enjoyed it.
Different sports are compelling for different reasons, be they football, hurling, soccer or rugby or other sports.
Different sports have different identities.
What always made gaelic football compelling and great was the helter-skelter nature of the sports.
Mícheál Ó Muircheartaigh describing what was good about football and hurling said you could look away from a football or hurling match for a minute and a lot would have happened. In the era of blanket defenses this is less the case than it used to be." I'm interested to know the rule changes you'd like to see (apologies if you stated them already among the many posts here).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2633 - 11/03/2024 13:07:39
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