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Can Gaelic Football (Handball?) Be Saved?

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I coached an intermediate club team last year to a county title. We had a strong running game with a serious level of fitness. Almost every team we played were super defensive and we couldn't play a serious kicking game so we dominated possession. It seems to be the coaches here taking a lot of stick. It's not black and white either.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7908 - 08/03/2024 14:43:33    2530326

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I'll never defend uncontested hand passing (to be honest though backwards kick passing is at least just as bad) , I just don't think all developments in the game are negative.

The focus then has to be to get more incentive for teams to push out and play. The more I think of it teams no being able to play back into their own 45 makes sense as it'd encourage a proactive press."
To open up the game, two rules I'd like to see:

1) Two-zone forward kick pass - with both 45s & 65s dividing the pitch into 5 zones, the defensive team is always required to execute this kick (within an 'unscientific' time limit of 30 seconds, ref could rarely cite 'blatant' keep ball only) from zone 1 or 2 (behind own 45 or 65) to zone 3 or 4 (beyond own or opposing 65), respectively. Violation results in an opposition free kick at midfield.

2) 4-6-4 formation - both teams are required to have no more than 4-on-4 inside either 45, but this is only assessed when the ball enters the zone in an attacking direction (i.e. excess players can be 'temporarily' inside the 'other 45' when not target ball receivers). After the ball enters, both teams can flood the zone until the ball is played out again to between the 45s.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2633 - 08/03/2024 15:14:15    2530333

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Replying To omahant:  "To open up the game, two rules I'd like to see:

1) Two-zone forward kick pass - with both 45s & 65s dividing the pitch into 5 zones, the defensive team is always required to execute this kick (within an 'unscientific' time limit of 30 seconds, ref could rarely cite 'blatant' keep ball only) from zone 1 or 2 (behind own 45 or 65) to zone 3 or 4 (beyond own or opposing 65), respectively. Violation results in an opposition free kick at midfield.

2) 4-6-4 formation - both teams are required to have no more than 4-on-4 inside either 45, but this is only assessed when the ball enters the zone in an attacking direction (i.e. excess players can be 'temporarily' inside the 'other 45' when not target ball receivers). After the ball enters, both teams can flood the zone until the ball is played out again to between the 45s."
Head reels.....

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1451 - 08/03/2024 16:23:29    2530341

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "On club teams anyway it is the way in which the game has become about possession has led to the increased influence of the manager.

In the era of possession football it is easier to justify paying a manager X per session and easier for the manager to look for more sessions per week when they will talk about focusing on setting up right.

A side benefit of moving the game back towards a direct style could be decreased costs associated with preparing adult teams."
Agree. There will be resistence from coaches to reverse those changes and play gaelic football, the way it is to be played. Payment to manager and their teams has to be justified and they are using session after session to choreography their style of play which is designed primarily to reduce and/or eliminate risk on the field. Gaelic football when played in its traditional way is exciting and good to watch. The current version is neither of those things.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1916 - 08/03/2024 16:46:18    2530350

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Replying To omahant:  "To open up the game, two rules I'd like to see:

1) Two-zone forward kick pass - with both 45s & 65s dividing the pitch into 5 zones, the defensive team is always required to execute this kick (within an 'unscientific' time limit of 30 seconds, ref could rarely cite 'blatant' keep ball only) from zone 1 or 2 (behind own 45 or 65) to zone 3 or 4 (beyond own or opposing 65), respectively. Violation results in an opposition free kick at midfield.

2) 4-6-4 formation - both teams are required to have no more than 4-on-4 inside either 45, but this is only assessed when the ball enters the zone in an attacking direction (i.e. excess players can be 'temporarily' inside the 'other 45' when not target ball receivers). After the ball enters, both teams can flood the zone until the ball is played out again to between the 45s."
Is this a video game you're talking about?

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 686 - 08/03/2024 17:38:11    2530357

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I'll never defend uncontested hand passing (to be honest though backwards kick passing is at least just as bad) , I just don't think all developments in the game are negative.

The focus then has to be to get more incentive for teams to push out and play. The more I think of it teams no being able to play back into their own 45 makes sense as it'd encourage a proactive press."
I know you don't like uncontested hand passing but a big part of the reason that there are 'more players are involved in all phases of the game than they were 20 years ago' is the modern possession based game involving a bank of players handpassing the ball to each other in front of the opposition blanket defense. The more handpassing there is the more individual touches of the ball will take place in a game.

I agree on backward kick passes being just as bad to look at although I don't think it would be feasible to play a style dominated by backward kick passes in the same way games can be dominated by uncontested hand passes.

This committee has come about because there is a groundswell of opinion that the game can't continue to evolve down the path and needs a big change of direction.
The committee will be a total waste of time if we end up with only minimal changes.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1362 - 08/03/2024 20:42:03    2530376

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Replying To wicklowsupport:  "Agree. There will be resistence from coaches to reverse those changes and play gaelic football, the way it is to be played. Payment to manager and their teams has to be justified and they are using session after session to choreography their style of play which is designed primarily to reduce and/or eliminate risk on the field. Gaelic football when played in its traditional way is exciting and good to watch. The current version is neither of those things."
Possession style football is also in the interest of the TV analysts.

If we go back to a more direct (exciting) style of play there really isn't as much to analyse as gaelic football should be basically a pretty simple game.

Possession style football certainly won't get you off your seat near as much or make you near as engaged when watching it but a TV analyst can spend a long time talking about how a team aim to break the blanket.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1362 - 08/03/2024 21:07:20    2530377

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "I coached an intermediate club team last year to a county title. We had a strong running game with a serious level of fitness. Almost every team we played were super defensive and we couldn't play a serious kicking game so we dominated possession. It seems to be the coaches here taking a lot of stick. It's not black and white either."
Every team you played were "super defensive"… Could their coaches have something to do with that I wonder…? You made my point very well there…!!

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1960 - 09/03/2024 08:28:23    2530403

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "Every team you played were "super defensive"… Could their coaches have something to do with that I wonder…? You made my point very well there…!!"
Sorry the point i am making is coaches are getting criticised even if they are getting results. When the best teams play each other games are very good, the latter stages of championship over the past few years have shown that. I am not for changing rules drastically for the sake of it. Some people are throwing up daft ideas.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7908 - 09/03/2024 09:49:07    2530416

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "Sorry the point i am making is coaches are getting criticised even if they are getting results. When the best teams play each other games are very good, the latter stages of championship over the past few years have shown that. I am not for changing rules drastically for the sake of it. Some people are throwing up daft ideas."
The biggest indictment of the current non contact uncontested type of game is the deathly silence from the spectators for most of the game.
A coach/manager is there to try and win games by whatever means work.
Up to legislators to find ways of making the game more attractive/appealing.

One of the pluses of gaelic football was that you could play the ball in so many ways with few restrictions (throw, pick up..) making it a more natural type of football compared to e.g soccer with no use of hands.

It's now a possession game with no tackle allowed on the man who has the ball so making possession king.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1451 - 09/03/2024 10:26:42    2530419

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "The biggest indictment of the current non contact uncontested type of game is the deathly silence from the spectators for most of the game.
A coach/manager is there to try and win games by whatever means work.
Up to legislators to find ways of making the game more attractive/appealing.

One of the pluses of gaelic football was that you could play the ball in so many ways with few restrictions (throw, pick up..) making it a more natural type of football compared to e.g soccer with no use of hands.

It's now a possession game with no tackle allowed on the man who has the ball so making possession king."
I have been enjoying the sweeper keeper but i am now starting to turn on that. I don't think the keeper should be allowed receive the ball more than once in a movement. Or else restrict the keeper to inside the 21. I think something might have to change as teams are dropping back so far the keeper can now come out and be in no danger of being dispossessed most of the time.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7908 - 09/03/2024 10:41:14    2530420

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "I know you don't like uncontested hand passing but a big part of the reason that there are 'more players are involved in all phases of the game than they were 20 years ago' is the modern possession based game involving a bank of players handpassing the ball to each other in front of the opposition blanket defense. The more handpassing there is the more individual touches of the ball will take place in a game.

I agree on backward kick passes being just as bad to look at although I don't think it would be feasible to play a style dominated by backward kick passes in the same way games can be dominated by uncontested hand passes.

This committee has come about because there is a groundswell of opinion that the game can't continue to evolve down the path and needs a big change of direction.
The committee will be a total waste of time if we end up with only minimal changes."
I hear you and don't disagree with a lot of what you are saying. I'd also just be wary that you don't want to restrict the evolution of the game too much by keeping players to zones. You are starting to make the game into a training situation or netball style flow to it and I'd say a more fluid game could be better.

I still think a big issue is a lack of the good teams playing one another and the same can be said at club level at times too.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4245 - 09/03/2024 10:48:06    2530423

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "Sorry the point i am making is coaches are getting criticised even if they are getting results. When the best teams play each other games are very good, the latter stages of championship over the past few years have shown that. I am not for changing rules drastically for the sake of it. Some people are throwing up daft ideas."
Looking at your last few posts you are kind of making the case of why we need serious changes to the rule book to force the game out of the direction it has been going for years.

1. Your saying a few games a year are good.
2. Your saying in the team you manage every team you face is super defensive so you have to play keep ball.
3. Your saying your are having success playing this way but people still criticise you.

Without using the rulebook to dismantle blanket defenses the game will continue to sink.

Your right in saying the managers will play a style to make it more likely they will win.

It's up to the rule makers to change the rules when needed. In rugby they seem to have no problem changing the rulebook to keep the game going in the right direction.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1362 - 09/03/2024 11:38:25    2530427

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "I know you don't like uncontested hand passing but a big part of the reason that there are 'more players are involved in all phases of the game than they were 20 years ago' is the modern possession based game involving a bank of players handpassing the ball to each other in front of the opposition blanket defense. The more handpassing there is the more individual touches of the ball will take place in a game.

I agree on backward kick passes being just as bad to look at although I don't think it would be feasible to play a style dominated by backward kick passes in the same way games can be dominated by uncontested hand passes.

This committee has come about because there is a groundswell of opinion that the game can't continue to evolve down the path and needs a big change of direction.
The committee will be a total waste of time if we end up with only minimal changes."
The approach the committee seems to be taking sounds sensible and trialling rules.

Minimal rules maximal impact should be the priority.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4245 - 09/03/2024 11:39:20    2530428

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "Looking at your last few posts you are kind of making the case of why we need serious changes to the rule book to force the game out of the direction it has been going for years.

1. Your saying a few games a year are good.
2. Your saying in the team you manage every team you face is super defensive so you have to play keep ball.
3. Your saying your are having success playing this way but people still criticise you.

Without using the rulebook to dismantle blanket defenses the game will continue to sink.

Your right in saying the managers will play a style to make it more likely they will win.

It's up to the rule makers to change the rules when needed. In rugby they seem to have no problem changing the rulebook to keep the game going in the right direction."
We don't need serious changes. Maybe two and one of those is getting rid of offensive mark. Wholesale changes are not needed.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7908 - 09/03/2024 12:14:31    2530432

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "Looking at your last few posts you are kind of making the case of why we need serious changes to the rule book to force the game out of the direction it has been going for years.

1. Your saying a few games a year are good.
2. Your saying in the team you manage every team you face is super defensive so you have to play keep ball.
3. Your saying your are having success playing this way but people still criticise you.

Without using the rulebook to dismantle blanket defenses the game will continue to sink.

Your right in saying the managers will play a style to make it more likely they will win.

It's up to the rule makers to change the rules when needed. In rugby they seem to have no problem changing the rulebook to keep the game going in the right direction."
Rugby does have no problem doing that but also does extensive trials on new laws including world wide trials, closed trials in some countries or even specific to xertain competitions
Gaa needs to do that a lot more

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3514 - 09/03/2024 12:20:27    2530433

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "Sorry the point i am making is coaches are getting criticised even if they are getting results. When the best teams play each other games are very good, the latter stages of championship over the past few years have shown that. I am not for changing rules drastically for the sake of it. Some people are throwing up daft ideas."
Taking your point that when the best teams play each other then the games in general are good.
This would indicate that it is not the rules that are the problem. The problem is mis-matches. When evenly matched lower tier teams play each other the games are often open as well. I was at Sligo/Antrim a couple of weeks ago, entertaining 1-20 to 1-13.
If we look at the hurling where a blanket defence is not effective what do we get with mismatches, hammerings, no fun either.
Same in rugby a mismatch results in game over after 20mins.
Soccer like gaelic football uses blanket defence to protect weak teams from hammerings resulting in boring matches.
In all codes there will always be mismatches and whether the rules facilitate blanket defence or not these games will inevitably be non-events.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 686 - 09/03/2024 13:42:49    2530449

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Replying To sligo joe:  "Taking your point that when the best teams play each other then the games in general are good.
This would indicate that it is not the rules that are the problem. The problem is mis-matches. When evenly matched lower tier teams play each other the games are often open as well. I was at Sligo/Antrim a couple of weeks ago, entertaining 1-20 to 1-13.
If we look at the hurling where a blanket defence is not effective what do we get with mismatches, hammerings, no fun either.
Same in rugby a mismatch results in game over after 20mins.
Soccer like gaelic football uses blanket defence to protect weak teams from hammerings resulting in boring matches.
In all codes there will always be mismatches and whether the rules facilitate blanket defence or not these games will inevitably be non-events."
The real nub of the problem is gaelic football should have never been allowed to evolve, as has happened in the last 20 years, into a possession based game, its totally unsuitable sport to be a possession based game and its totally against the way the game was always played previously.
Would any sports body have sat by and let their sport morph into something so different?.
In 2017 Italy used a tactic that could have totally changed rugby and world rugby quickly the same year changed the rules to make sure this would not become a way rugby could be played.
(https://www.ruck.co.uk/thats-a-ruck-ruckgate-italys-tactic-that-baffled-england-in-2017-six-nations/)

The GAA should have saw the writing on the wall for football the way world rugby did after seeing Donegal's approach against Dublin in 2011 but did nothing.

In rugby, hurling and gaelic football preparation levels have increased enormously in last 2 decades or so.
The spectacle of gaelic football, like hurling and rugby should have improved enormously in this time but instead the game has evolved to include a huge amount of uncontested handpassing and massed defenses.
How much better would the game be if the focus had been on improving teams abilities to play direct football and try to get at other teams.

Even the good games between the top teams (and there has also been relatively bad games between top teams) includes a lot of aimless possession football.
People need to get their heads out of the sand, the tactical battles some football analyst talk about are nothing more than teams just keeping most of their players behind the ball, nor tackling this approach is ruining the game.

I know of skilful underage players who gave up playing as they weren't effective when it came to adult teams playing with the modern approach and I have relations from Dublin who now rarely travel down to see games in Navan anymore as they say they get hard to watch modern games. Most people I talk to know there is an serious issue with modern football.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1362 - 09/03/2024 15:19:10    2530462

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Replying To sligo joe:  "Taking your point that when the best teams play each other then the games in general are good.
This would indicate that it is not the rules that are the problem. The problem is mis-matches. When evenly matched lower tier teams play each other the games are often open as well. I was at Sligo/Antrim a couple of weeks ago, entertaining 1-20 to 1-13.
If we look at the hurling where a blanket defence is not effective what do we get with mismatches, hammerings, no fun either.
Same in rugby a mismatch results in game over after 20mins.
Soccer like gaelic football uses blanket defence to protect weak teams from hammerings resulting in boring matches.
In all codes there will always be mismatches and whether the rules facilitate blanket defence or not these games will inevitably be non-events."
100 per cent on the hurling. Only a handful of serious teams. Easier to score than it ever has been. But it gets praised to the hilt.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7908 - 09/03/2024 15:37:01    2530468

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Rugby does have no problem doing that but also does extensive trials on new laws including world wide trials, closed trials in some countries or even specific to xertain competitions
Gaa needs to do that a lot more"
Did the goys choke again tonight? Maybe they should hypnotise them before crunch games so they let the pot herbs wreck their heads?

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2591 - 09/03/2024 22:19:16    2530537

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