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Provincial Championships 2024

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Replying To omahant: "That's the crux of the matter and a tough nut to crack. The Rugby Union World Cup provides the opportunity and there are more ugly blowouts than a "Uruguay" putting it up to stronger opposition. The closed shop alternative isn't a solution either - so what to do in the GAA?" I don't think the GAA is a closed shop. In the way that Rugby is. Developing countries only have the World Cup with Six Nations, Rugby Championship and Test matches closed to them. That criticism is really unfair on Gaelic Football. The Sam Maguire is a 16 team competition, I'd say all but about the 5 or 6 traditionally weakest counties could get to a level to make that standard. Louth we're clearly deserving of a top 16 place last season. There's plenty of movement in the leagues with 2 up and 2 down between divisions and there's plenty of counties that move up and down the ladder. Division 1 it's hard for teams to stay there and there's been few new teams making it stick but otherwise teams do have periods of relative improvement. It's hard to design a competition to give weaker counties games against better teams and have it actually be exciting. We've got to be realistic, weaker teams aren't going to take a massive leap during one season. To start to get competitive is a multi year undertaking and there's more opportunity for that now with the Tailteann Cup than there was before. Antrim played 6 championship matches last year and we did play against teams better than us. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 21/01/2024 18:13:35 2521373 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "Need to find some competition and means to mentor and test the so called weaker counties against a higher standard. Because it'll kill intercounty football in some counties while the rich get richer. A Super League and the rest. GreenandRed (Mayo) The provincial championships are the opportunity for lower league counties to test themselves against higher league counties. Win and they can savour a great win for many years. Lose, they simply move onto the Tailteann Cup with lessons learned. Westmeath won the 2022 Tailteann Cup and were very competitive in the 2023 All-Ireland group stage. They were very close to knockout out Tyrone. The current structure is a good template and framework. There are just a few tweaks required like provincial winners only qualifying and the incentive of an extra home game for provincial winners, Tailteann winner and Allianz League division winners." The current structure does nothing to improve the standards of so called weaker counties. 1 provincial game does them no favours. Provincial should be separate from All Ireland/Tailteann competitions with no bearing on qualifying for either. Play them during the league before last 3 or 4 rounds of the league just before championship and all teams start at the same time, not depending on how long their province takes to finish. And let top two teams in Division 3 and 4 play off with each other to play bottom two in Division 2, bar Tailteann winner, for a chance to get into All Ireland. Similar to how National League was run with Division 3 and 4 given a chance to get to League Final. GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7620 - 21/01/2024 21:39:48 2521420 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "I don't think the GAA is a closed shop. In the way that Rugby is. Developing countries only have the World Cup with Six Nations, Rugby Championship and Test matches closed to them. That criticism is really unfair on Gaelic Football. The Sam Maguire is a 16 team competition, I'd say all but about the 5 or 6 traditionally weakest counties could get to a level to make that standard. Louth we're clearly deserving of a top 16 place last season. There's plenty of movement in the leagues with 2 up and 2 down between divisions and there's plenty of counties that move up and down the ladder. Division 1 it's hard for teams to stay there and there's been few new teams making it stick but otherwise teams do have periods of relative improvement. It's hard to design a competition to give weaker counties games against better teams and have it actually be exciting. We've got to be realistic, weaker teams aren't going to take a massive leap during one season. To start to get competitive is a multi year undertaking and there's more opportunity for that now with the Tailteann Cup than there was before. Antrim played 6 championship matches last year and we did play against teams better than us." How will teams improve their standards playing Tailteann Cup and Division 3 and 4 league standard, a poor standard compared to Division 2 and 1 and All Ireland Series? For all it's faults at least the back door All Ireland gave teams a chance of playing a higher standard of football. Though they couldn't sustain it Fermanagh, Wexford and Tipperary reached semi finals. Fermanagh now in Division 2 but Wexford and Tipperary in Division 4. Doesn't have to be a massive change to championship but reducing number of pool games, pushing the intercounty season into August, scrap the provincial leagues and have a centenary Cup type competition running alongside league with counties playing teams of a higher standard. I doubt it'll ever happen though. Playing no jeopardy pool games on hard pitches that look good on TV seem more important to the GAA than standards of intercounty football in all counties. GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7620 - 21/01/2024 21:59:44 2521423 Link
Replying To GreenandRed: "The current structure does nothing to improve the standards of so called weaker counties. 1 provincial game does them no favours. Provincial should be separate from All Ireland/Tailteann competitions with no bearing on qualifying for either. Play them during the league before last 3 or 4 rounds of the league just before championship and all teams start at the same time, not depending on how long their province takes to finish. And let top two teams in Division 3 and 4 play off with each other to play bottom two in Division 2, bar Tailteann winner, for a chance to get into All Ireland. Similar to how National League was run with Division 3 and 4 given a chance to get to League Final." That's an interesting idea - your playoffs for Sam berths: Div 2 7th v Div 3 2nd (or Div 4 1st) Div 2 8th v Div 3 1st (or Div 4 2nd) omahant (USA) - Posts: 2849 - 22/01/2024 01:50:40 2521440 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "I don't think the GAA is a closed shop. In the way that Rugby is. Developing countries only have the World Cup with Six Nations, Rugby Championship and Test matches closed to them. That criticism is really unfair on Gaelic Football. The Sam Maguire is a 16 team competition, I'd say all but about the 5 or 6 traditionally weakest counties could get to a level to make that standard. Louth we're clearly deserving of a top 16 place last season. There's plenty of movement in the leagues with 2 up and 2 down between divisions and there's plenty of counties that move up and down the ladder. Division 1 it's hard for teams to stay there and there's been few new teams making it stick but otherwise teams do have periods of relative improvement. It's hard to design a competition to give weaker counties games against better teams and have it actually be exciting. We've got to be realistic, weaker teams aren't going to take a massive leap during one season. To start to get competitive is a multi year undertaking and there's more opportunity for that now with the Tailteann Cup than there was before. Antrim played 6 championship matches last year and we did play against teams better than us." I didn't say the GAA was a closed shop - or did I take any position at all. I was just stating that the extremes of fully open (too many Kerry v Clare style blowouts) and fully closed (elitist, no access for weaker teams) are both equally bad solutions - and therein lies the dilemma, what to do? Tailteann Cup may be more competitive with the lowest 12 as the other four (incl Meath & Cavan) are probably too strong for the rest. Given the 2023 Munster & Leinster non-contest finals, it's hard to see how the Tailteann top 4 could stay competitive with the best teams as well. All considered, is it best to corral a 'top 20' and only have a one up/one down with a Tailteann 12, so the weaker teams in the 20 (19) get repeat good exposure year on year? omahant (USA) - Posts: 2849 - 22/01/2024 02:06:48 2521442 Link
Replying To GreenandRed: "How will teams improve their standards playing Tailteann Cup and Division 3 and 4 league standard, a poor standard compared to Division 2 and 1 and All Ireland Series? For all it's faults at least the back door All Ireland gave teams a chance of playing a higher standard of football. Though they couldn't sustain it Fermanagh, Wexford and Tipperary reached semi finals. Fermanagh now in Division 2 but Wexford and Tipperary in Division 4. Doesn't have to be a massive change to championship but reducing number of pool games, pushing the intercounty season into August, scrap the provincial leagues and have a centenary Cup type competition running alongside league with counties playing teams of a higher standard. I doubt it'll ever happen though. Playing no jeopardy pool games on hard pitches that look good on TV seem more important to the GAA than standards of intercounty football in all counties." I don't agree. The teams that Antrim need to be playing to help us improve are the likes of Meath, Cavan, Down, Clare. We'd get very little out of playing Division 1 or even the best division 2 teams. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 22/01/2024 11:26:40 2521487 Link
Replying To omahant: "I didn't say the GAA was a closed shop - or did I take any position at all. I was just stating that the extremes of fully open (too many Kerry v Clare style blowouts) and fully closed (elitist, no access for weaker teams) are both equally bad solutions - and therein lies the dilemma, what to do? Tailteann Cup may be more competitive with the lowest 12 as the other four (incl Meath & Cavan) are probably too strong for the rest. Given the 2023 Munster & Leinster non-contest finals, it's hard to see how the Tailteann top 4 could stay competitive with the best teams as well. All considered, is it best to corral a 'top 20' and only have a one up/one down with a Tailteann 12, so the weaker teams in the 20 (19) get repeat good exposure year on year?" There definitely shouldn't be that sort of corralling. Just keep the competitions open and teams will have a pathway to improve. If they are in a 2nd tier it'll be because they aren't consistent enough against the top teams in the grade and those are the teams they need to improve against before the can get anything out of the higher level. The teams that do win promotion I really don't think easy passes are a good thing for anyone wanting meaningful change for a weaker county. I think GreenAndRed's opinion is lacking nuance. Teams around the top of division 3 can be a good challenge to division 4 teams and if those division 3 teams win promotion they can get up and play more division 1 and 2 teams. The bar is not outrageously high to be playing Sam Maguire. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 22/01/2024 16:05:24 2521573 Link
Without balanced provincial draws based on a fair seeding, provincial winners only should be qualifying. Would Meath and Cavan prefer balanced seeded draws with provincial finalists qualifying or open draw with provincial winners only qualifying? legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8242 - 22/01/2024 17:59:32 2521598 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "Without balanced provincial draws based on a fair seeding, provincial winners only should be qualifying. Would Meath and Cavan prefer balanced seeded draws with provincial finalists qualifying or open draw with provincial winners only qualifying?" Given Dublin, Meath would not have much choice there, would have to opt for the balanced seeding. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2849 - 23/01/2024 13:58:18 2521722 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "There definitely shouldn't be that sort of corralling. Just keep the competitions open and teams will have a pathway to improve. If they are in a 2nd tier it'll be because they aren't consistent enough against the top teams in the grade and those are the teams they need to improve against before the can get anything out of the higher level. The teams that do win promotion I really don't think easy passes are a good thing for anyone wanting meaningful change for a weaker county. I think GreenAndRed's opinion is lacking nuance. Teams around the top of division 3 can be a good challenge to division 4 teams and if those division 3 teams win promotion they can get up and play more division 1 and 2 teams. The bar is not outrageously high to be playing Sam Maguire." I have "keep the competitions open and teams will have a pathway to improve" - with one up/one down. Your issue seems to be to retain a 'Tailteann 16' so the lower 12 can strive to get up to the level of the stronger 4 - makes sense. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2849 - 23/01/2024 14:19:21 2521726 Link
Replying To omahant: "I have "keep the competitions open and teams will have a pathway to improve" - with one up/one down. Your issue seems to be to retain a 'Tailteann 16' so the lower 12 can strive to get up to the level of the stronger 4 - makes sense." My issue is that 1 promotion place for 12 teams is too much of a bottleneck. Even worse only having 1 team going down out of 20 makes it a low bar to maintain a place at the top tier. I don't think either of those things are good for overall standards. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 23/01/2024 16:18:17 2521745 Link
2023 Round 1: Donegal beat Clare and Derry drew with Monaghan. Round 2: Monaghan beat Clare and Derry beat Donegal. Derry 3 Monaghan 3 Donegal 2 Clare 0. Clare were knocked out after Round 2. 2023 alternative: Round 1: Donegal beat Clare and Derry drew with Monaghan. Round 1 winners should avoid each other in Round 2, with flexible scheduling after Round 1. As Derry and Monaghan drew, Derry take the place of winner for the fixture scheduling as they are the higher seed. Round 2: Derry beat Clare and Donegal beat Monaghan. Donegal 4 Derry 3 Monaghan 1 Clare 0 Round 3: Derry v Donegal is then a quarter-final playoff. Clare v Monaghan is an elimination playoff. The worst case scenario when two round 1 winners play in Round 3 is that the two R1 winners are playing for direct qualification to the quarter-finals and the two R1 losers are battling to avoid elimination. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8242 - 23/01/2024 18:12:03 2521774 Link
The Connacht and Leinster CEOs John Prenty and Michael Reynolds are calling for tweaks to be made to provide greater incentive for winning the provincial championships. They are suggesting that provincial winners go straight to the quarter-finals. Are there alternative options that are more appropriate? Provincial winners could be given home advantage for all 3 group games. Their opponents then would get 1 home game each. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8242 - 23/01/2024 20:09:37 2521791 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "The Connacht and Leinster CEOs John Prenty and Michael Reynolds are calling for tweaks to be made to provide greater incentive for winning the provincial championships. They are suggesting that provincial winners go straight to the quarter-finals. Are there alternative options that are more appropriate? Provincial winners could be given home advantage for all 3 group games. Their opponents then would get 1 home game each." They can go away. It will just take away from from the group stage. There should be less emphasis on the provincials. No automatic place for the runner ups. Give the champions an extra home game if they want. Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 740 - 23/01/2024 21:37:35 2521804 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "My issue is that 1 promotion place for 12 teams is too much of a bottleneck. Even worse only having 1 team going down out of 20 makes it a low bar to maintain a place at the top tier. I don't think either of those things are good for overall standards." Two ways of looking at it - by avoiding yoyoing back down, the sole TC champ would have a good chance of multiple years of testing against better teams to solidify into the Top 20. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2849 - 24/01/2024 00:03:07 2521815 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "The Connacht and Leinster CEOs John Prenty and Michael Reynolds are calling for tweaks to be made to provide greater incentive for winning the provincial championships. They are suggesting that provincial winners go straight to the quarter-finals. Are there alternative options that are more appropriate? Provincial winners could be given home advantage for all 3 group games. Their opponents then would get 1 home game each." As Provincial Championships are currently unbalanced, I don't like Dublin and Kerry getting the same reward as the hard working Ulster Champion. Have the 'top 4' in each Prov play an initial Prelim SF - two winners to 'own Prov' SFs, two losers 'guesting' in neighbouring Prov QF (one to each of two neighbours). All 17 others (incl NY) contest 'own Prov' only for two Prov QF berths. Put a Prov Final in each of the AIC 'four groups of four' on route to the KO stage. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2849 - 24/01/2024 00:16:36 2521817 Link
LEAVE THINGS AS THEY ARE!! For a few years anyway. Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1907 - 24/01/2024 10:24:20 2521850 Link
Replying To Seanfanbocht: "LEAVE THINGS AS THEY ARE!! For a few years anyway." You know you are overall right. There are still things that further down the line do look like they will need to be looked at. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 24/01/2024 11:56:36 2521872 Link
Replying To omahant: "Two ways of looking at it - by avoiding yoyoing back down, the sole TC champ would have a good chance of multiple years of testing against better teams to solidify into the Top 20." What's the issue with yo-yoing , give a team a good program of games and getting up there should have benefited them anyway and if they do retain their level then they'll be all the better again. I've seen examples in club football where teams are content with maintaining their status needing only to win a match to do so and it overall not being great for standards. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 24/01/2024 13:27:28 2521898 Link
Replying To Seanfanbocht: "LEAVE THINGS AS THEY ARE!! For a few years anyway." Out of interest did you find last season exciting? I struggled to get into the All Ireland until Mayo played Galway to be honest. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 24/01/2024 16:38:30 2521925 Link