National Forum

Playing "Keep Ball"...

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copying my thread below from part of another post, I watched the ladies intermediate final yesterday between Tipp & Meath..excellent attacking football from both sides, went to get a cup of tea near the end and came back to see Tipp playing "keepball" with around 3 minutes left on the clock...yes there is no rule against it but there should be, this is very very unsporting, both teams having gone at it, excellent game, then to start this old keep ball lark took the gloss off an excellent performance, I know peole will say "Tipp wont care, they won, the done what the had to do"...sorry, thats not the issue, a team might as well leave the field if they are going to start that ould carry on, people will say it would be hard to manage referee wise, I dont think so, to see a team hand passing and foot passing the ball backways and sideways over players heads in sucessive passing motions its easy to spot what the team is doing...finals where teams play football start to finish will be remembered regardless of who wins where as this other rubbish wont be remembered next week outside the winning counties...again, there is no rule against it but there should be in my oppinion...shocking and unsporting stuff to look at...another thing, once the keeper plays out the ball, either long or short resuming play after a wide or a score or a free, the defender should not be allowed play the ball back to the keeper, sometimes multiple times before progressing up the field...people will say "there is no rule saying you cant"..I know there isnt but personally, just my view, I think there should be..playing keep ball (running down clock in injury time) shoud result in restart at midfield by throwing up the ball...hard to implement maybe but worth looking at..something does need to be done...

Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1034 - 16/09/2019 09:55:39    2235946

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The same happened in the senior final. The Dubs kept the ball for up to 3 minutes at one stage in the second half. Did they not try to introduce the handpass rule in 2018 to prevent this? If I recall the Dubs were very vocal in their opposition to it. Something needs to be looked at as it ruins the game as a spectacle.

fantasybrown (Roscommon) - Posts: 26 - 16/09/2019 11:43:09    2236013

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Maybe if teams pressed under rather 15 bodies behind the ball.

hamsterdean (Limerick) - Posts: 223 - 16/09/2019 11:50:05    2236016

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Rules very easy to introduce. Have a halfway line, the ball cannot be brought back or passed back by the defending team into that half or it is a free. Frees and sideline kicks must go forward.
Two simple rules to force teams to push up.

Oh and no passes back to the goalie. If he is somehow ahead of you on the field then pass away

Halfdinnerandraspberrycheesecake (Leitrim) - Posts: 48 - 16/09/2019 12:12:38    2236033

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Replying To Fairplayalways:  "copying my thread below from part of another post, I watched the ladies intermediate final yesterday between Tipp & Meath..excellent attacking football from both sides, went to get a cup of tea near the end and came back to see Tipp playing "keepball" with around 3 minutes left on the clock...yes there is no rule against it but there should be, this is very very unsporting, both teams having gone at it, excellent game, then to start this old keep ball lark took the gloss off an excellent performance, I know peole will say "Tipp wont care, they won, the done what the had to do"...sorry, thats not the issue, a team might as well leave the field if they are going to start that ould carry on, people will say it would be hard to manage referee wise, I dont think so, to see a team hand passing and foot passing the ball backways and sideways over players heads in sucessive passing motions its easy to spot what the team is doing...finals where teams play football start to finish will be remembered regardless of who wins where as this other rubbish wont be remembered next week outside the winning counties...again, there is no rule against it but there should be in my oppinion...shocking and unsporting stuff to look at...another thing, once the keeper plays out the ball, either long or short resuming play after a wide or a score or a free, the defender should not be allowed play the ball back to the keeper, sometimes multiple times before progressing up the field...people will say "there is no rule saying you cant"..I know there isnt but personally, just my view, I think there should be..playing keep ball (running down clock in injury time) shoud result in restart at midfield by throwing up the ball...hard to implement maybe but worth looking at..something does need to be done..."
How is it unsporting?

Saying keeping the ball is unsporting is like saying scoring is unsporting, or that tackling and dispossessing your opponent is unsporting.

Keeping the ball is not an issue. Tipp had gotten themselves into a winning position through playing some great football, it was up to Meath to win the ball back, I don't see how people can blame Tipperary for not just handing posession back to Meath, Meath didn't try and press Tipp at all despite the fact that Tipp were leading.

Teams can only easily play keep ball if the opposition essentially lets them.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13704 - 16/09/2019 12:13:56    2236035

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Replying To Halfdinnerandraspberrycheesecake:  "Rules very easy to introduce. Have a halfway line, the ball cannot be brought back or passed back by the defending team into that half or it is a free. Frees and sideline kicks must go forward.
Two simple rules to force teams to push up.

Oh and no passes back to the goalie. If he is somehow ahead of you on the field then pass away"
So essentially you want to make the blanket defence even more effective and difficult to break down?

Why?

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13704 - 16/09/2019 12:18:30    2236039

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Replying To MesAmis:  "So essentially you want to make the blanket defence even more effective and difficult to break down?

Why?"
Because the current system isn't working. Watching Dublin play keep ball for periods of the replay diminishes the game

Halfdinnerandraspberrycheesecake (Leitrim) - Posts: 48 - 16/09/2019 12:32:20    2236048

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Replying To Halfdinnerandraspberrycheesecake:  "Because the current system isn't working. Watching Dublin play keep ball for periods of the replay diminishes the game"
So what you want to see is the blanket defence promoted as the best way to play?

That makes no sense.

Dublin kept the ball because they were leading and Kerry flooded everyone back. If Kerry pressed up Dublin would've attacked. In fact Dublin waited for their opportunity and did attack and got shots away each time they played keep ball.

The solutions listed above are punishing the attacking team and are misguided.

Look at how Dublin pressed Kerry in the drawn game at the end, Kerry tried keeping the ball but couldn't, that's exactly what Kerry should have been doing, man to man and win it back. It was the winning and losing of the All-Ireland imo.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13704 - 16/09/2019 12:54:16    2236062

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Replying To MesAmis:  "So what you want to see is the blanket defence promoted as the best way to play?

That makes no sense.

Dublin kept the ball because they were leading and Kerry flooded everyone back. If Kerry pressed up Dublin would've attacked. In fact Dublin waited for their opportunity and did attack and got shots away each time they played keep ball.

The solutions listed above are punishing the attacking team and are misguided.

Look at how Dublin pressed Kerry in the drawn game at the end, Kerry tried keeping the ball but couldn't, that's exactly what Kerry should have been doing, man to man and win it back. It was the winning and losing of the All-Ireland imo."
Excellent points, as always Mes Amis. Dublin's ferocity 14 v 15 in the last 10 min drawn game was amazing.

BliainanÁir (Laois) - Posts: 598 - 16/09/2019 13:01:04    2236067

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Keep ball, people are funny about this, booing the opposition for doing it, writing their little hearts out in outrage because a team does it.

Maybe they should give out to their own team for not tackling, pushing up, pressing the play to win the ball back.

on many occasions in both finals Dublin had 14 men in their own half but if they were even 1 point behind they pushed up to try and win the ball. Sport is not about entertainment it's about winning.

ulsterrules (Donegal) - Posts: 259 - 16/09/2019 13:17:22    2236075

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Replying To MesAmis:  "So what you want to see is the blanket defence promoted as the best way to play?

That makes no sense.

Dublin kept the ball because they were leading and Kerry flooded everyone back. If Kerry pressed up Dublin would've attacked. In fact Dublin waited for their opportunity and did attack and got shots away each time they played keep ball.

The solutions listed above are punishing the attacking team and are misguided.

Look at how Dublin pressed Kerry in the drawn game at the end, Kerry tried keeping the ball but couldn't, that's exactly what Kerry should have been doing, man to man and win it back. It was the winning and losing of the All-Ireland imo."
'The solutions listed above are punishing the attacking team and are misguided.'

They wouldn't have much impact on an attacking team that is, you know, actually attacking!

I'd like to see what happens if it was pushed a little further....

A team cannot pass the ball back across any line in their own half, including the halfway line, once the ball has crossed that line by way of a pass or carry by a teammate.

I think this would make for a much stronger imperative to actively move the ball forward, would incentivise the team without the ball to press, force counter-attaching play, reduce the prevalence of teams placing everyone behind the ball in their own half and lead to an increase in both turnovers and scores.

TearsIn85 (Monaghan) - Posts: 193 - 16/09/2019 13:27:04    2236077

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Replying To MesAmis:  "So what you want to see is the blanket defence promoted as the best way to play?

That makes no sense.

Dublin kept the ball because they were leading and Kerry flooded everyone back. If Kerry pressed up Dublin would've attacked. In fact Dublin waited for their opportunity and did attack and got shots away each time they played keep ball.

The solutions listed above are punishing the attacking team and are misguided.

Look at how Dublin pressed Kerry in the drawn game at the end, Kerry tried keeping the ball but couldn't, that's exactly what Kerry should have been doing, man to man and win it back. It was the winning and losing of the All-Ireland imo."
Exactly. Dublin played plenty of "keep ball" but Kerry just stood there looking at them. Dublin were winning the game, Kerry needed to score. If Kerry don't have the ball they can't score and if for some reason Kerry were happy to let Dublin pass the ball sideways ad infinitum without pushing up on them and trying to force a turnover, why should Dublin risk losing the ball.

the_walls (Mayo) - Posts: 495 - 16/09/2019 13:35:49    2236082

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Replying To MesAmis:  "How is it unsporting?

Saying keeping the ball is unsporting is like saying scoring is unsporting, or that tackling and dispossessing your opponent is unsporting.

Keeping the ball is not an issue. Tipp had gotten themselves into a winning position through playing some great football, it was up to Meath to win the ball back, I don't see how people can blame Tipperary for not just handing posession back to Meath, Meath didn't try and press Tipp at all despite the fact that Tipp were leading.

Teams can only easily play keep ball if the opposition essentially lets them."
simply because if you tackle (at least your attempting to get the ball) or if you foul a free is given against you, handpassing the ball over another players head continuously is not about progressing play it is about styming it!..no its not against the rules (at the moment) but me and appaeretly a good few more on here think it should be...say in snooker if a player is snookered and he "attempts" to get out of it but leaves the balls baulked (held up) for his opponent, no advantage at all - a "foul and a miss" in called and the opponent gets a points and can either play on or put back his opponent, again, yes some "misses" do seemed harsh, but you must err on the side of caution and know that the player attemtping to get out of the snooker didnt given any andvantage to his opponent, the "miss" and points are the penalty, like wise potting your opponents ball say in pool that is blocking a pocket, potting his ball deliberately (or not) to clear the pocket is a foul, but NO foul shot was used to "hang" the ball in the first instance, a foul was used to clear the pocket, hence the foul given, rightly so, a very unsporting thing to do..no clear honest attempt to play football needs to be addressed, if they want to play keep ball they can play it with their kids/sibblings at home...dreadful unsporting play and no way to "see out a match"...like your opinion, this is just mine and others...

Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1034 - 16/09/2019 13:40:17    2236083

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6 of one half a dozen of the other.

Dublin get a lead and hold onto the ball sometimes in their own half.

Kerry don't push out on them, sticking to the blanket despite being behind.

I think that a team who persists in using the blanket despite being behind are ultimately to 'blame' for not pushing out. Yes it is risky to o this but the alternative is to use the blanket, hope that possession is ultimately turned over and then counter with no one up front.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 16/09/2019 14:08:06    2236098

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Replying To MesAmis:  "So what you want to see is the blanket defence promoted as the best way to play?

That makes no sense.

Dublin kept the ball because they were leading and Kerry flooded everyone back. If Kerry pressed up Dublin would've attacked. In fact Dublin waited for their opportunity and did attack and got shots away each time they played keep ball.

The solutions listed above are punishing the attacking team and are misguided.

Look at how Dublin pressed Kerry in the drawn game at the end, Kerry tried keeping the ball but couldn't, that's exactly what Kerry should have been doing, man to man and win it back. It was the winning and losing of the All-Ireland imo."
Exactly my point else where. Kerry were never going to get the scores needed to come back with 14 men behind the ball. Dublin were eventually going to turn this possession into more scores.
Who ever is responsible for this disgusting development in the game it does not matter, the rules need to be amended to stop it. I'll do the broken record. The ball can not go backwards outside the two 45 yard lines. If you receive a hand pass you can not give one. In other words the next pass must be by the boot. KIck outs must come out side the 45. Put the ball back on the ground for frees and line balls. It is ridiculous watching the free taker walking in from out on the left or right to in front of the posts before kicking. No disrespect to my aunty Josey in America but see would score them. Minimum skill required. If this makes me a traditionalist fine that is what I am but someone in charge needs to insure that the developments in our games has entertainment value. We know where managers stand on this. Win at all costs but they do not own the game either.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2655 - 16/09/2019 14:42:51    2236121

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Replying To Donegalman:  "6 of one half a dozen of the other.

Dublin get a lead and hold onto the ball sometimes in their own half.

Kerry don't push out on them, sticking to the blanket despite being behind.

I think that a team who persists in using the blanket despite being behind are ultimately to 'blame' for not pushing out. Yes it is risky to o this but the alternative is to use the blanket, hope that possession is ultimately turned over and then counter with no one up front."
Agreed its down to the team behind to press. I understand not risking it early in the game but 4+ down late in the game Kerry needed to risk it to get the ball back.

Of course Dublin played keep ball as itwas the right thing for them to do.

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 16/09/2019 14:44:18    2236123

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Replying To Canuck:  "Exactly my point else where. Kerry were never going to get the scores needed to come back with 14 men behind the ball. Dublin were eventually going to turn this possession into more scores.
Who ever is responsible for this disgusting development in the game it does not matter, the rules need to be amended to stop it. I'll do the broken record. The ball can not go backwards outside the two 45 yard lines. If you receive a hand pass you can not give one. In other words the next pass must be by the boot. KIck outs must come out side the 45. Put the ball back on the ground for frees and line balls. It is ridiculous watching the free taker walking in from out on the left or right to in front of the posts before kicking. No disrespect to my aunty Josey in America but see would score them. Minimum skill required. If this makes me a traditionalist fine that is what I am but someone in charge needs to insure that the developments in our games has entertainment value. We know where managers stand on this. Win at all costs but they do not own the game either."
But your suggestions would incentivise the blanket defence. Why do you want changes that would encourage the blanket defence and make it more potent?

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13704 - 16/09/2019 14:49:37    2236127

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Replying To Fairplayalways:  "simply because if you tackle (at least your attempting to get the ball) or if you foul a free is given against you, handpassing the ball over another players head continuously is not about progressing play it is about styming it!..no its not against the rules (at the moment) but me and appaeretly a good few more on here think it should be...say in snooker if a player is snookered and he "attempts" to get out of it but leaves the balls baulked (held up) for his opponent, no advantage at all - a "foul and a miss" in called and the opponent gets a points and can either play on or put back his opponent, again, yes some "misses" do seemed harsh, but you must err on the side of caution and know that the player attemtping to get out of the snooker didnt given any andvantage to his opponent, the "miss" and points are the penalty, like wise potting your opponents ball say in pool that is blocking a pocket, potting his ball deliberately (or not) to clear the pocket is a foul, but NO foul shot was used to "hang" the ball in the first instance, a foul was used to clear the pocket, hence the foul given, rightly so, a very unsporting thing to do..no clear honest attempt to play football needs to be addressed, if they want to play keep ball they can play it with their kids/sibblings at home...dreadful unsporting play and no way to "see out a match"...like your opinion, this is just mine and others..."
So using a tactic that beats the blanket defence is 'styming' the game????!!!

So the team that is keeping the football and waiting for their chance to beat the blanket defence is not making an 'honest attempt to play football'????!!!!

I'm finding it hard to get a handle on what you want, you don't like how teams beat the blanket defence. You think beating the blanket defence is unsporting for some reason.

So the blanker defence is the more honest way of playing in your opinion?

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13704 - 16/09/2019 14:54:55    2236132

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Replying To MesAmis:  "So using a tactic that beats the blanket defence is 'styming' the game????!!!

So the team that is keeping the football and waiting for their chance to beat the blanket defence is not making an 'honest attempt to play football'????!!!!

I'm finding it hard to get a handle on what you want, you don't like how teams beat the blanket defence. You think beating the blanket defence is unsporting for some reason.

So the blanker defence is the more honest way of playing in your opinion?"
no where did I say or encourage the use of a blanket defence..thats how some of you think my penalising the "keep ball" tactic migh encourage, I cant see how but I am certainly not in favour of that..after 3/4/5 passes if the impression is got by one/all "neutral" officials that keep ball is being played, a free kick is awarded to the team being "kept" deliberately from the ball and say the free kick must cross the half way line (i.e. the receiving team cannot in turn start playing keepball either!!)..look, its poor sportsmanship, physically preventing a team from playing, and it works the same for both teams...the carry on over recent years and again this weekend is woeful...

Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1034 - 16/09/2019 15:04:59    2236137

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We need a variation of the 'shot clock' which a number of sports use to prevent exactly the type of game management that's crept into Gaelic Football (Men and Women). It is a major part of NBA in particular which had issues with teams passing the ball around once they had a lead.

Below is from Wikipedia but shows what the benefit was:
"The shot clock, together with some rule changes concerning fouls, revolutionized NBA basketball. In the last pre-clock season (1953-54), teams averaged 79 points per game; in the first year with the clock (1954-55), the average was 93 points, which went up to 107 points by its fourth year in use (1957-58). The advent of the shot clock (and the resulting increase in scoring) coincided with an increase in attendance, which increased 40% within a few years to an average of 4,800 per game."

The two big problems though would be the use of the blanket defence and how a shot clock rule would translate to the club game. If we had separate rules for club and intercounty level would that professionalise the intercounty game? Looking at the current Dublin team it might be a bit late to worry about that.

cavandub (Cavan) - Posts: 67 - 16/09/2019 15:16:47    2236144

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