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Kilkenny and Tipp Give Us A Traditional All Ireland Hurling Final

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Such a shame the game has been over shadowed by one incident. Not much talk about what tipp have achieved. Brendan Maher coming back to play his best hurling ever from an ACL injury and marking and often outscorinf some of the biggest names in the country. Is there anything he can't do. Ronan starting to take over from paudie as the biggest beast of a player in the game and Noel and seamie being exceptional.
One prediction on this forum at start of year was he'd be dropped by end of Munster cship. Some of my own concerns were unfounded.
Kk had a 50% win rate in the cship so I feel something needs to be tweaked. Tipp had an almost 90% win rate so I don't think anyone can begrudge them this one. Beat 4 Munster teams and 3 Leinster teams. Can't do much more than that.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 2724 - 20/08/2019 20:30:22    2228022

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Replying To tiobraid:  "Such a shame the game has been over shadowed by one incident. Not much talk about what tipp have achieved. Brendan Maher coming back to play his best hurling ever from an ACL injury and marking and often outscorinf some of the biggest names in the country. Is there anything he can't do. Ronan starting to take over from paudie as the biggest beast of a player in the game and Noel and seamie being exceptional.
One prediction on this forum at start of year was he'd be dropped by end of Munster cship. Some of my own concerns were unfounded.
Kk had a 50% win rate in the cship so I feel something needs to be tweaked. Tipp had an almost 90% win rate so I don't think anyone can begrudge them this one. Beat 4 Munster teams and 3 Leinster teams. Can't do much more than that."
Great post, Brendan Maher was brilliant all year. Noel Mcgrath was a joy to watch too, his skill levels are off the charts.

Limerick and Wexford were very good this year too. The Leinster championship was so tight. Laois' performances wets the appetite for next year's Leinster championship already.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2507 - 20/08/2019 21:00:06    2228025

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Cody going on about the length of time it took the ref to show the red as a reason why it shouldnt have been a red..I think it took him that long as he was looking for a way out of showing the red.
Hurling is always good for hard hits and everyone getting on with it and not complaining but for the Killkenny lads to be defending Hogan is embarssing, just accept it was a stupid thing to do and move on, theres nothing controversial about it

tommy132 (Mayo) - Posts: 336 - 20/08/2019 22:12:32    2228034

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Replying To tommy132:  "Cody going on about the length of time it took the ref to show the red as a reason why it shouldnt have been a red..I think it took him that long as he was looking for a way out of showing the red.
Hurling is always good for hard hits and everyone getting on with it and not complaining but for the Killkenny lads to be defending Hogan is embarssing, just accept it was a stupid thing to do and move on, theres nothing controversial about it"
common sense talk here.. well said! .

PatOLogical (Limerick) - Posts: 1064 - 20/08/2019 22:44:14    2228039

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Replying To Killarney.87:  "Nail on the head. The reason Richie Hogan's red card is so controversial is because Kilkenny are making it so.

We were surprised and disappointed to see John McGrath getting sent off against Wexford but accepted that he was silly and deserved his second yellow and red."
i dunno.
john mcgrath was indefensible and he was a lucky boy that it was only a 2nd yellow.
i debated long and hard in my head about Richie Hogan red as to whether barret made too much of it but Paidi Maher getting the laois player sent off was nothing short of pathetic.
if hurling goes down the route of players getting each other sent off it will really ruin the game.
i will give Kilkenny,and Richie Hogan one thing,they dont go down to get the opponent sent off.he could have got bill Cooper sent off if he wanted,but maybe he decided he was better than that.

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3487 - 20/08/2019 23:22:50    2228046

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Think we have to spare a thought for James Owens in all of this. He knew the consequences of the decision and it was an extremely tough and imo unavoidable call for him to make. It cant be an easy week for him. The consequences of spending 70 minutes as the referee in an AI Final, while not quite potentially life changing are way too serious for what is an amateur game.

facethepuckout (Roscommon) - Posts: 183 - 20/08/2019 23:36:31    2228048

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Replying To tiobraid:  "Such a shame the game has been over shadowed by one incident. Not much talk about what tipp have achieved. Brendan Maher coming back to play his best hurling ever from an ACL injury and marking and often outscorinf some of the biggest names in the country. Is there anything he can't do. Ronan starting to take over from paudie as the biggest beast of a player in the game and Noel and seamie being exceptional.
One prediction on this forum at start of year was he'd be dropped by end of Munster cship. Some of my own concerns were unfounded.
Kk had a 50% win rate in the cship so I feel something needs to be tweaked. Tipp had an almost 90% win rate so I don't think anyone can begrudge them this one. Beat 4 Munster teams and 3 Leinster teams. Can't do much more than that."
Correct. I opened thread on James Owen last week knowing that this would probably happen and induce some support from posters for him in advance. I also pointed out what he was up again. We could as posters decide on a code of conduct never to discuss the refs again. Hold on though, the analysts will continue on our screens and should know better.
The biggest surprise I got was Brian Cody and wondered why. He usually will not discuss the ref. Then I think it dawned on me. He is suffering from the extent of the beating and trying to play it down with diversion. You know Trump style. We the bottom feeders are well used to big beatings and just lick our wounds and go again.
Henry Shefflin did for sure say the game was over when Richie was sent off. Most others would agree it was a changing point (for the total score) but Tipp were getting on top. Henry the game was not over when Richie was sent off but when the Tip forwards opened up y'ere backs like a can opener for two goals. After all it was a forward Kilkenny lost not a back and how they pride themselves on one on one with out a sweeper in that area.
Kilkenny have great hurlers and always will. It is in their genes. However I believe the attitude of Cody, Shefflin and Tyrell will stick in the gut of every other team and reflect on the approach to beating them. You know like the way they showed up the Cork team during the strike with a mother and father of a beating.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 632 - 21/08/2019 00:01:05    2228053

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Short of VAR, which is needed, what would be wrong with having a refereeing committee that analyzes each game for big-ticket referring decisions? The idea that, if the ref deals with it on the field by issuing a free or card, is obviously brought into question when we are seeing so many questionable decisions (whether they be by the book or not) A post-game refereeing committee should be able to retroactively correct a wrong decision. It would achieve a few goals: (a) it would ban or over-turn player bans based on analyzing TV evidence, and (b) it would improve referee accuracy over time. For a few examples, it would have suspended Cillian Buckley for the elbow tackle on Barry Nash, suspended Ronan Maher for the tackle on Peter Casey, and suspended John McGrath for the AIF. This is likely also what was used to rescind one of Stephen O Brien's black cards, allowing him to play in the football AIF.

I have no solution on what would happen for games which are not televised which probably renders the idea a on-starter.

stpats1886 (Limerick) - Posts: 7 - 21/08/2019 06:07:21    2228068

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Replying To perfect10:  "i dunno.
john mcgrath was indefensible and he was a lucky boy that it was only a 2nd yellow.
i debated long and hard in my head about Richie Hogan red as to whether barret made too much of it but Paidi Maher getting the laois player sent off was nothing short of pathetic.
if hurling goes down the route of players getting each other sent off it will really ruin the game.
i will give Kilkenny,and Richie Hogan one thing,they dont go down to get the opponent sent off.he could have got bill Cooper sent off if he wanted,but maybe he decided he was better than that."
Just a few comments on this anti-Tipp post. John McGrath deserved his second yellow but his first yellow card was harsh. I was in the Lower Davin for that game and he had been getting off-the-ball niggling from his marker since the start of the game and only when he finally decided to stand up for himself did the linesman intervene, as a result of which both players were booked. Had the linesman or umpires being doing their job the Wexford defender would have been booked (on his own) much earlier. Was this the same Wexford player who later collapsed in agony, giving the impression he had been struck by McGrath, even though video replays showed the contact was only with his hurley? (It was still a yellow card but definitely not a straight red).

"If hurling goes down the route of players getting each other sent off it will really ruin the game." You make this comment after referring to both Cathal Barrett and Paudi Maher, clearly implying that Tipp are the guilty ones here. Paudi Maher was struck on the knee and just because Eddie Brennan cast aspersions on Maher doesn't mean that he was guilty of simulation. Likewise, Jackie Tyrrell let himself down in suggesting that Barrett over-reacted, ignoring the fact that Barrett was clearly shaken and had to be medically assessed before being allowed to continue. (In fairness to Richie Hogan, he exonerated Barrett of all blame for his red card). When have you seen either Maher or Barrett involved in exaggerating a challenge before? There is no evidence to suggest that Tipp players want to get other players sent off but if you think this is a growing problem in hurling maybe you should look closer to home first.

midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 89 - 21/08/2019 10:05:08    2228091

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Replying To midlands:  "Just a few comments on this anti-Tipp post. John McGrath deserved his second yellow but his first yellow card was harsh. I was in the Lower Davin for that game and he had been getting off-the-ball niggling from his marker since the start of the game and only when he finally decided to stand up for himself did the linesman intervene, as a result of which both players were booked. Had the linesman or umpires being doing their job the Wexford defender would have been booked (on his own) much earlier. Was this the same Wexford player who later collapsed in agony, giving the impression he had been struck by McGrath, even though video replays showed the contact was only with his hurley? (It was still a yellow card but definitely not a straight red).

"If hurling goes down the route of players getting each other sent off it will really ruin the game." You make this comment after referring to both Cathal Barrett and Paudi Maher, clearly implying that Tipp are the guilty ones here. Paudi Maher was struck on the knee and just because Eddie Brennan cast aspersions on Maher doesn't mean that he was guilty of simulation. Likewise, Jackie Tyrrell let himself down in suggesting that Barrett over-reacted, ignoring the fact that Barrett was clearly shaken and had to be medically assessed before being allowed to continue. (In fairness to Richie Hogan, he exonerated Barrett of all blame for his red card). When have you seen either Maher or Barrett involved in exaggerating a challenge before? There is no evidence to suggest that Tipp players want to get other players sent off but if you think this is a growing problem in hurling maybe you should look closer to home first."
Don't be so naive about Barrett's reaction to the hit, he was struck with force alright, but his head clearly recoils in two different directions moments apart.

The angle of the second replay here https://twitter.com/Max_Power_1234/status/1163104494173003776 is absolutely conclusive here, after the initial impact Barrett throws his head back and arms in the air.

Of course I'm sure that like with Reck feigning being struck by McGrath people will refuse to see it, despite their being video evidence to clearly show it

And the naivety to think that Barrett being medically assessed (while repeatedly checking if Owens had made his mind up yet) indicates how injured he was!

Heftydickonem (Kilkenny) - Posts: 143 - 21/08/2019 10:17:51    2228095

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Replying To Heftydickonem:  "Don't be so naive about Barrett's reaction to the hit, he was struck with force alright, but his head clearly recoils in two different directions moments apart.

The angle of the second replay here https://twitter.com/Max_Power_1234/status/1163104494173003776 is absolutely conclusive here, after the initial impact Barrett throws his head back and arms in the air.

Of course I'm sure that like with Reck feigning being struck by McGrath people will refuse to see it, despite their being video evidence to clearly show it

And the naivety to think that Barrett being medically assessed (while repeatedly checking if Owens had made his mind up yet) indicates how injured he was!"
Is there a case for some kind of a TMO to intervene where constant niggling is going on. Of course linesmen and umpires should be allowed have a more active in highlighting this carry on as things stand. Back in 1990 Mick Barron was playing was playing full back for Limerick v Tipp and was lording it over his opponent as he had done in the previous round against no less an adversary than Tommy Guilfoyle of Clare. Quite out of the blue he lashed out and hit his opponent. He absolutely all day long had to be put off and duly was. However there was other aspects to this case. The following day when he went to his work place, Barron was accosted by a colleague with the salutation 'You bollix, you lost the game for us yesterday' Barron did nothing but stripped off his shirt to show his back which was black and blue and bruised. He attributed this 'condition' to constant lashes with the hurley his opponent had applied to him. Where were the umpires in this case, as indeed in the case of several others and indeed Limerick players and those from other counties have also got away with niggling opponents Certainly I feel if a TMO could play back the incident where Ritchie got his nasal injury at leisure and then alert the ref if necessary it would be fair and a vast improvement in the present situation.
Frankly I find it hard to see how a second ref would work.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2279 - 21/08/2019 10:49:03    2228115

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Replying To Heftydickonem:  "Don't be so naive about Barrett's reaction to the hit, he was struck with force alright, but his head clearly recoils in two different directions moments apart.

The angle of the second replay here https://twitter.com/Max_Power_1234/status/1163104494173003776 is absolutely conclusive here, after the initial impact Barrett throws his head back and arms in the air.

Of course I'm sure that like with Reck feigning being struck by McGrath people will refuse to see it, despite their being video evidence to clearly show it

And the naivety to think that Barrett being medically assessed (while repeatedly checking if Owens had made his mind up yet) indicates how injured he was!"
Hefty. Hold on there . You have recently accused players from three different counties of feigning injury to get players put off and along with that the relationship ye share with Cork does not appear great. Is there any other Hurling crowd ye 'share the luv with'

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2279 - 21/08/2019 10:53:52    2228118

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Hefty. Hold on there . You have recently accused players from three different counties of feigning injury to get players put off and along with that the relationship ye share with Cork does not appear great. Is there any other Hurling crowd ye 'share the luv with'"
I personally don't like players feigning injury to get players sent off, thats all there is to it. I'm extremely worried about it coming into the game since i see the effect it had on mine and many other peoples' love of soccer. Im not aware of any Kilkenny player doing this in the past, although many have "won" frees, but i guess its inevitable this will change some day, sadly. I've given examples of this occurring with specific players from a few counties, some with clear video evidence, since i think it needs highlighting.
What is your opinion on Barretts reaction in the second angle?
Again, I'm not commentating on the eventual punishment here, just Barretts reaction. Can you see any evidence to back of Tyrrell's claim that Barrett made the most of it?

Heftydickonem (Kilkenny) - Posts: 143 - 21/08/2019 11:11:45    2228132

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Is there a case for some kind of a TMO to intervene where constant niggling is going on. Of course linesmen and umpires should be allowed have a more active in highlighting this carry on as things stand. Back in 1990 Mick Barron was playing was playing full back for Limerick v Tipp and was lording it over his opponent as he had done in the previous round against no less an adversary than Tommy Guilfoyle of Clare. Quite out of the blue he lashed out and hit his opponent. He absolutely all day long had to be put off and duly was. However there was other aspects to this case. The following day when he went to his work place, Barron was accosted by a colleague with the salutation 'You bollix, you lost the game for us yesterday' Barron did nothing but stripped off his shirt to show his back which was black and blue and bruised. He attributed this 'condition' to constant lashes with the hurley his opponent had applied to him. Where were the umpires in this case, as indeed in the case of several others and indeed Limerick players and those from other counties have also got away with niggling opponents Certainly I feel if a TMO could play back the incident where Ritchie got his nasal injury at leisure and then alert the ref if necessary it would be fair and a vast improvement in the present situation.
Frankly I find it hard to see how a second ref would work."
I think what you mention in the second sentence there is the best approach, better training and more involvement for umpires and linesmen. Between the lot of them they should be able to see most things on the field. As an aside, I hope they GAA also do something to address cynical fouling (something Kilkenny were guilty of this year against Cork) The punishment dished out for that does not fit the crime at present

Just about the Barrett on Hogan incident, I'd have no problem with that. A free would be sufficient in my book, but with the way the game is gone now I think Barrett could have expected a yellow.

Heftydickonem (Kilkenny) - Posts: 143 - 21/08/2019 11:25:36    2228140

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Replying To Heftydickonem:  "I personally don't like players feigning injury to get players sent off, thats all there is to it. I'm extremely worried about it coming into the game since i see the effect it had on mine and many other peoples' love of soccer. Im not aware of any Kilkenny player doing this in the past, although many have "won" frees, but i guess its inevitable this will change some day, sadly. I've given examples of this occurring with specific players from a few counties, some with clear video evidence, since i think it needs highlighting.
What is your opinion on Barretts reaction in the second angle?
Again, I'm not commentating on the eventual punishment here, just Barretts reaction. Can you see any evidence to back of Tyrrell's claim that Barrett made the most of it?"
I am inclined to agree with you. I have commented on another thread on the need for TMO to highlight or review these situations and then alert the ref if the outcome of their deliberations warrant it. There should be hefty punishments for those caught simulating or exaggerating their injuries in these situations

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2279 - 21/08/2019 11:35:40    2228149

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Replying To Heftydickonem:  "I personally don't like players feigning injury to get players sent off, thats all there is to it. I'm extremely worried about it coming into the game since i see the effect it had on mine and many other peoples' love of soccer. Im not aware of any Kilkenny player doing this in the past, although many have "won" frees, but i guess its inevitable this will change some day, sadly. I've given examples of this occurring with specific players from a few counties, some with clear video evidence, since i think it needs highlighting.
What is your opinion on Barretts reaction in the second angle?
Again, I'm not commentating on the eventual punishment here, just Barretts reaction. Can you see any evidence to back of Tyrrell's claim that Barrett made the most of it?"
Heftydickonem, we'll have to agree to differ on the Barrett incident. I don't believe he was feigning injury, he was fairly shaken by Hogan's challenge which, incidentally, I don't believe was premeditated but still warranted a red card. I was surrounded by Tipp fans (though strangely I had a Leinster ticket) and none of them showed any glee at Hogan's red card. In fact, they were rather apprehensive at half time, thinking that the sending off would fire up Kilkenny. They also felt that since Cody had 15 minutes to sort things out at half time, Kilkenny would cope well with the loss of Hogan just as Tipp themselves had done against Wexford. There may have been a few isolated instances in recent years but I don't believe there are many hurlers in any county who go out to get opponents sent off. "Winning" frees is another matter but that has been there for years and is fairly widespread.

midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 89 - 21/08/2019 11:44:57    2228155

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Replying To midlands:  "Heftydickonem, we'll have to agree to differ on the Barrett incident. I don't believe he was feigning injury, he was fairly shaken by Hogan's challenge which, incidentally, I don't believe was premeditated but still warranted a red card. I was surrounded by Tipp fans (though strangely I had a Leinster ticket) and none of them showed any glee at Hogan's red card. In fact, they were rather apprehensive at half time, thinking that the sending off would fire up Kilkenny. They also felt that since Cody had 15 minutes to sort things out at half time, Kilkenny would cope well with the loss of Hogan just as Tipp themselves had done against Wexford. There may have been a few isolated instances in recent years but I don't believe there are many hurlers in any county who go out to get opponents sent off. "Winning" frees is another matter but that has been there for years and is fairly widespread."
Agree with all of that, except our views on Barretts reaction of course. I don't think anyone in the stadium expected the sending off but from the replays you can see why Hogan walked, Barrett did get a rattle to the head.
I'm in the minority i guess, where while i want players to be protected i dont want the physical side diluted and I'd prefer Hogans challenge to be a yellow and Barretts just a free, maybe yellow.

I agree though, feigning injury is not a widespread issue yet, hopefully it wont become more prevelant

Heftydickonem (Kilkenny) - Posts: 143 - 21/08/2019 12:17:14    2228166

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The bottom line is it was a sending off of fence and Hogan got sent off. All the whataboutery and other bullsh1t about fellas being astounded by the red card is of no significance other than to create a bit of a smokescreen for the collapse. Kilkenny had their chances in the first 20 minutes to be 6/7 points up and didn't take them.
Disappointing the way Cody came out with his stuff about Owens taking to long as I would prefer if a referee used all the time and advice available in order to make the right call and that's what he done. Similar daft attempts by Tyrell and Shefflin to say it was this and it was that. It was a red. End of and the referee got it spot on.
Probably deflected some of the attention from the pointless tactics of constantly knocking in high balls and hoping for a miracle.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 1016 - 21/08/2019 12:35:10    2228174

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Replying To catch22:  "The bottom line is it was a sending off of fence and Hogan got sent off. All the whataboutery and other bullsh1t about fellas being astounded by the red card is of no significance other than to create a bit of a smokescreen for the collapse. Kilkenny had their chances in the first 20 minutes to be 6/7 points up and didn't take them.
Disappointing the way Cody came out with his stuff about Owens taking to long as I would prefer if a referee used all the time and advice available in order to make the right call and that's what he done. Similar daft attempts by Tyrell and Shefflin to say it was this and it was that. It was a red. End of and the referee got it spot on.
Probably deflected some of the attention from the pointless tactics of constantly knocking in high balls and hoping for a miracle."
And around and around we go

Heftydickonem (Kilkenny) - Posts: 143 - 21/08/2019 12:38:38    2228175

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Replying To Heftydickonem:  "And around and around we go"
Jaysus KK always seem to find it hard to take their beating....or is it just becuase its Tipp?

witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1494 - 21/08/2019 13:00:01    2228181

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