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Kilkenny and Tipp Give Us A Traditional All Ireland Hurling Final

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Replying To sourmilk93:  "Clumsy challenge are you for real? It was a cowardly elbow he new exactly what he was doing."
Don't agree with any of that. He deserved to go, yes, but how the hell can you say for certain 'he knew exactly what he was doing "

Looked like a man trying to shoulder him over the line. Lay down a marker ... Don't for a second think it was premeditated. Hogan was reckless, but he didn't go out to do Barrett in my opinion.

skillet (Limerick) - Posts: 578 - 19/08/2019 14:44:14    2227520

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Jaysus - my prediction was spot on until the sending off.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 77 - 19/08/2019 15:12:03    2227534

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Creeping into the GAA- now- A certain county in an All Ireland Semi Final in the early 1980s had a player who soloed the ball with his head held forward and nearer the ball than most players would. An opposition player attempted to knock off his stick and accidentally hit the soloing player in the face in the process inflicting a wound. When the injured player was on the ground those giving him medical aid rubbed the blood all over face to make his injuries look worse in order the tackler put off which he was. Simulation has been here with decades"
Was he holding his head in his hands, or was it attached to his neck I wonder? You've made it sound very complicated there.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 2296 - 19/08/2019 15:17:38    2227537

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Replying To ballydalane:  "Section 5 deals with "aggressive fouls" and lists the following;

5.1 To strike or to attempt to strike an opponent with head, arm, elbow, hand or knee.
5.2 To strike or to attempt to strike an opponent with a hurley, with minimal force.
5.3 To strike an opponent with a hurley, either with force or causing injury.
5.4 To attempt to strike an opponent with a hurley, with force.
5.5 To kick or attempt to kick an opponent, with minimal force.
5.6 To kick an opponent, either with force or causing injury.
5.7 To attempt to kick an opponent, with force.
5.8 To stamp on an opponent.
5.9 To behave in any way which is dangerous to an opponent.
5.10 To inflict injury recklessly on an opponent by means other than these stated above.
5.11 To spit at an opponent.
5.12 To contribute to a melee.
5.13 To strike, attempt to strike, to interfere with, or to use threatening or abuse language or conduct to a Match Official.
5.14 To assault an opposing Team Official.
Penalty for the above Fouls -
(i) Order offender off.
(ii) Free puck from where Foul occurred, except as provided under Exceptions of Rule 2.2.

To my mind, if we're all so keen to apply the letter of the law, Barrett should have been red carded under any one of the rules 5.2, 5.3 and 5.9. So just the three "aggressive fouls" rules James Owens chose to ignore yesterday.

There is no mention of "intent", "deliberate", "accidental" in the above rules, as much as people may wish to apply such nuances retrospectively.

What's really in effect is below:

(i) Order the player off except in circumstances as described in (ii) below;
(ii) If, in the opinion of the referee, any of the fouls as described in section 5.1-5.14 were not committed with deliberate intent and malice of forethought by the offending player, the referee may choose to caution the offending player;

The problem with part (ii) though is that it doesn't exist, but it's effectively the code that referees work with (when it suits, hence the inconsistency). It's probably the very definition of the "unwritten rule"."
Are you sure you are looking at the 2019 Hurling Rules and not the 2009? Had a quick look as what you listed above didn't coincide with the rules I was looking at earlier and when I google the first 2 rules I get directed to the 2009 Hurling rules?

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 3884 - 19/08/2019 15:19:11    2227538

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Replying To Offside_Rule:  "Are you sure you are looking at the 2019 Hurling Rules and not the 2009? Had a quick look as what you listed above didn't coincide with the rules I was looking at earlier and when I google the first 2 rules I get directed to the 2009 Hurling rules?"
Send me a link!

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1082 - 19/08/2019 15:30:19    2227541

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Oldtourman is talking about Sean Foley's sending off for an incident with PJ Molloy I think. There was disagreement on that one, disagreement on Pat Horgan v Limerick in 2013, disagreement on Richie Hogan. Perhaps the only way to be more sure is to go with TV replays and Gaelic games might change significantly then.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6189 - 19/08/2019 15:32:22    2227544

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Replying To skillet:  "Don't agree with any of that. He deserved to go, yes, but how the hell can you say for certain 'he knew exactly what he was doing "

Looked like a man trying to shoulder him over the line. Lay down a marker ... Don't for a second think it was premeditated. Hogan was reckless, but he didn't go out to do Barrett in my opinion."
Because he went to shoulder him miss timed it. realised he was going to miss him and raised his elbow to make contact. It was one of the stupidest things i have ever witnessed. To lose the head and take a cheap shot at someone in an All Ireland final like that he must be fairly embarressed with himself.

sourmilk93 (Roscommon) - Posts: 131 - 19/08/2019 15:41:47    2227550

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We all know what the rule is but there is no comparison between what Richie did and Barrett's hit. Barrett's hit was in an attempt to win the ball. Careless and yellow card. Richie took a run at Barrett and was never going to win the ball. In fact a late as well as a head shot. Red card.
The greatest manager of modern times was very disingenuous by saying the ref could not make up his mind. In my opinion he knew straight away it was a problem for Richie and was looking for some good reason to keep him on the field. Sheflin and Tyrell were pathetic. Not worthy of further comment.
As for all these comments about the refs decision ruining the game. How about saying Richie's decision ruined the game. Mind you it is conveniently over looked that Tipp were taking over and ahead at this stage. Kilkenny were always gracious in winning and now need to be the same in defeat. Saying Tipp were the bettered team but for this that and the other thing , things might be different is not their form. We all know them, down today but back up as quick tomorrow.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 632 - 19/08/2019 15:48:40    2227560

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Replying To Gowran_Yank:  "Sarry aRock. Not sure what I did but the comment was for Katser. And I made a few typos that made it harder to understand. No hard feelings I hope."
It's ok Yankee...you got flustered and upset, I would too if my team had been slaughtered by 14pts which could have been 20pts in a All Ireland Final!!! Wexford must be kicking themselves that they didn't finish off Tipp in the Semi Final when they had it in their own destiny with minutes to go!!

katser (Galway) - Posts: 735 - 19/08/2019 15:49:09    2227561

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Replying To sourmilk93:  "Because he went to shoulder him miss timed it. realised he was going to miss him and raised his elbow to make contact. It was one of the stupidest things i have ever witnessed. To lose the head and take a cheap shot at someone in an All Ireland final like that he must be fairly embarressed with himself."
The one thing I don't buy is that there was anything accidental about it. Those 'elbow to the head jobs' are rarely accidental, and when they are, the accidental element can often be at least speculated about. Nothing about Hogan's action looked accidental imo, and when you throw in his very fresh motivation from his red nose, it all stacks up with a fair degree of clarity.

If I'm not mistaken, our own captain fantastic David Burke got away with 'one of those' in last year's semi replay with Clare or the Leinster Final replay. Floored a player heavily with an elbow to the head iirc, and got away with yellow probably. My impression was that Owens would 'yellow out' yesterday too, but his 'consultation' with the Limerick man on the line seemed to seal Ritchie's fate. Shades of 2001 there, when Tipp also got a serious helping hand from a Limerick official in a final that they went on to win.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 2296 - 19/08/2019 15:59:27    2227565

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Replying To Bon:  "Sarcasm my friend. I felt barrett got away with murder, should have got the line, a fella you'd never give the benefit of the doubt to. Richie was billing, went in to lay him out with a shoulder no doubt about it, but ends up catching him in the puss with the elbow instead, red card all day long.
Ruined the match as a spectacle but sure that's how it goes.
But to listen to Jackie Tyrrell last nite trying to defend it was painfull, shefflin I wouldn't expect any different from to be honest. I'd expected more from jackie though, always came across as a guy who talks sense.
Maybe Cody might have to start blowing the whistle in training from now on."
"Maybe Cody might have to start blowing the whistle in training from now on. "

Agree with the above comment...so many ways the incident can be taken.
Was it in Jackie T's book or somewhere else I read that "Brian Cody" isn't interested in players who will die for him, he wants players who will kill for him". .
Maybe the incident will force Croke Park will take a more active role in eliminating the "back-alley-mugging " that has become accepted part of the game, with the explanation of "they're all doing it". Would it still be OK if it was your son, daughter or brother?

KK should have no complaints with the call by the referee because they have been doing that for decades and then couching it with comments like "le the game flow", it's a physical game". , no one should be put off, because no one got killed" ", or " it ruined the momentum of the game ", etc. approach to the great game.
Pathetic also to hear certain pundits try to muddy the waters and explain it away.
Yes, a new whistle for Brian Cody, should definitely be on top of Santa list.

"Live by the sword, die by the sword"

PatOLogical (Limerick) - Posts: 1064 - 19/08/2019 16:19:36    2227571

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Replying To Bon:  "Sarcasm my friend. I felt barrett got away with murder, should have got the line, a fella you'd never give the benefit of the doubt to. Richie was billing, went in to lay him out with a shoulder no doubt about it, but ends up catching him in the puss with the elbow instead, red card all day long.
Ruined the match as a spectacle but sure that's how it goes.
But to listen to Jackie Tyrrell last nite trying to defend it was painfull, shefflin I wouldn't expect any different from to be honest. I'd expected more from jackie though, always came across as a guy who talks sense.
Maybe Cody might have to start blowing the whistle in training from now on."
Fair comment, Bon.

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1082 - 19/08/2019 16:22:53    2227572

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Replying To sourmilk93:  "Because he went to shoulder him miss timed it. realised he was going to miss him and raised his elbow to make contact. It was one of the stupidest things i have ever witnessed. To lose the head and take a cheap shot at someone in an All Ireland final like that he must be fairly embarressed with himself."
isnt it amazing how people know whats going through a players mind in the heat of an AI final,

mooncat (Kilkenny) - Posts: 468 - 19/08/2019 16:25:56    2227575

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "The one thing I don't buy is that there was anything accidental about it. Those 'elbow to the head jobs' are rarely accidental, and when they are, the accidental element can often be at least speculated about. Nothing about Hogan's action looked accidental imo, and when you throw in his very fresh motivation from his red nose, it all stacks up with a fair degree of clarity.

If I'm not mistaken, our own captain fantastic David Burke got away with 'one of those' in last year's semi replay with Clare or the Leinster Final replay. Floored a player heavily with an elbow to the head iirc, and got away with yellow probably. My impression was that Owens would 'yellow out' yesterday too, but his 'consultation' with the Limerick man on the line seemed to seal Ritchie's fate. Shades of 2001 there, when Tipp also got a serious helping hand from a Limerick official in a final that they went on to win."
Your Holiness. In 2001 Pat O'connor refereed the semi final and I am not sure if he reffed the final. When did Denton referee a final involving Galway? Time was was up in the Tipp Wexford game, but he possibly should not have blown up the game as Paul Codd, a ferocious long striker of points, had just secured possession well out the field. There is no guarantee he would have scored it of course. Wexford folk were unhappy, but they were twice more so when Padraig Horan (0ffaly) put off both Liam Dunne and Mitch Jordan for what appeared very trivial reasons indeed in the replay.
Now Padraig Horan reffed the Munster Final and with the two minutes to go and the sides level David Kennedy the Tipp CB laid down on the ball in a savage Limerick attach-it was a free in all day long, but Horan gave it the other way, and Tipp fell over the line.
Now if you think that Pat O'Connor (Ahane) and Johnny Murphy (Ballylanders), both reared next to Tipp would go out of their way to favour the Premier County- well you just do not know the depth of LK/TP rivalry. As Nicky English once said and he was a border man too, 'if Tipp were playing the Arabs, the Limerick crowd would be shouting for the Arabs'- and how he was right and that is coming from a West Limerick man.
Now I admire James Owens'es manner of referreeing, he took his time and consulted his linesman, a fellow referee, and after much thought reached the proper conclusion. It was all in very sharp contrast to the way Allan Kelly, your county man, handled the Waterford/Tipp last and the recent semi final. His performances probably also precluded from refereeing yesterdays game

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2279 - 19/08/2019 17:23:14    2227601

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Replying To mooncat:  "isnt it amazing how people know whats going through a players mind in the heat of an AI final,"
Or whats not going through his mind. Like you know. " He never meant to hit him him in the head"

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 632 - 19/08/2019 17:23:50    2227602

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No mention of an appeal yet! If Richie was so wronged yesterday where is the appeal?

MillerX (Meath) - Posts: 599 - 19/08/2019 17:24:31    2227604

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "The one thing I don't buy is that there was anything accidental about it. Those 'elbow to the head jobs' are rarely accidental, and when they are, the accidental element can often be at least speculated about. Nothing about Hogan's action looked accidental imo, and when you throw in his very fresh motivation from his red nose, it all stacks up with a fair degree of clarity.

If I'm not mistaken, our own captain fantastic David Burke got away with 'one of those' in last year's semi replay with Clare or the Leinster Final replay. Floored a player heavily with an elbow to the head iirc, and got away with yellow probably. My impression was that Owens would 'yellow out' yesterday too, but his 'consultation' with the Limerick man on the line seemed to seal Ritchie's fate. Shades of 2001 there, when Tipp also got a serious helping hand from a Limerick official in a final that they went on to win."
Your Holiness. In 2001 Pat O'connor refereed the semi final and I am not sure if he reffed the final. When did Denton referee a final involving Galway? Time was was up in the Tipp Wexford game, but he possibly should not have blown up the game as Paul Codd, a ferocious long striker of points, had just secured possession well out the field. There is no guarantee he would have scored it of course. Wexford folk were unhappy, but they were twice more so when Padraig Horan (0ffaly) put off both Liam Dunne and Mitch Jordan for what appeared very trivial reasons indeed in the replay.
Now Padraig Horan reffed the Munster Final and with the two minutes to go and the sides level David Kennedy the Tipp CB laid down on the ball in a savage Limerick attach-it was a free in all day long, but Horan gave it the other way, and Tipp fell over the line.
Now if you think that Pat O'Connor (Ahane) and Johnny Murphy (Ballylanders), both reared next to the Tipp border would go out of their way to favour the Premier County- well you just do not know the depth of LK/TP rivalry. As Nicky English once said and he was a border man too, 'if Tipp were playing the Arabs, the Limerick crowd would be shouting for the Arabs'- and how right he and that is coming from a West Limerick man.
Now I admire James Owens'es manner of refereing, he took his time and consulted his linesman, a fellow referee, and after much thought reached the proper conclusion. It was all in very sharp contrast to the way Allan Kelly, your county man, handled the Waterford/Tipp last year and the recent semi final. His performances probably also precluded him from refereeing yesterdays game. Having said al that we lost that game ourselves as indeed we lost 2001 Munster Final. We had chances to win both games. Blaming the referee is pointless and I know in my heart neither Padraig Horan or All Kelly purposely set out to take the game off us, or indeed does any other referee either.
PS. In 2001 Clare were unhappy with the way Dickie Murphy handled the first round game with Tipp another cliff hanger and we ourselves felt very hard done by how Michael Wadding Waterford reffed the WEX/LK game, another split decision job and of course Cork people were sickened by the manner they went out against us and the Waterford crowd, who were eleven points up at one stage were furious that Clement Smyth was not put off for 'taking out John Mullane' althouhgh our Clem was as innocent as the child that was born yesterday and John quite clearly injured himself.
So all in all refs were in the news for all the wrong reasons in 2001. Ah! But what a hurling year.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2279 - 19/08/2019 18:02:45    2227629

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Your Holiness. In 2001 Pat O'connor refereed the semi final and I am not sure if he reffed the final. When did Denton referee a final involving Galway? Time was was up in the Tipp Wexford game, but he possibly should not have blown up the game as Paul Codd, a ferocious long striker of points, had just secured possession well out the field. There is no guarantee he would have scored it of course. Wexford folk were unhappy, but they were twice more so when Padraig Horan (0ffaly) put off both Liam Dunne and Mitch Jordan for what appeared very trivial reasons indeed in the replay.
Now Padraig Horan reffed the Munster Final and with the two minutes to go and the sides level David Kennedy the Tipp CB laid down on the ball in a savage Limerick attach-it was a free in all day long, but Horan gave it the other way, and Tipp fell over the line.
Now if you think that Pat O'Connor (Ahane) and Johnny Murphy (Ballylanders), both reared next to the Tipp border would go out of their way to favour the Premier County- well you just do not know the depth of LK/TP rivalry. As Nicky English once said and he was a border man too, 'if Tipp were playing the Arabs, the Limerick crowd would be shouting for the Arabs'- and how right he and that is coming from a West Limerick man.
Now I admire James Owens'es manner of refereing, he took his time and consulted his linesman, a fellow referee, and after much thought reached the proper conclusion. It was all in very sharp contrast to the way Allan Kelly, your county man, handled the Waterford/Tipp last year and the recent semi final. His performances probably also precluded him from refereeing yesterdays game. Having said al that we lost that game ourselves as indeed we lost 2001 Munster Final. We had chances to win both games. Blaming the referee is pointless and I know in my heart neither Padraig Horan or All Kelly purposely set out to take the game off us, or indeed does any other referee either.
PS. In 2001 Clare were unhappy with the way Dickie Murphy handled the first round game with Tipp another cliff hanger and we ourselves felt very hard done by how Michael Wadding Waterford reffed the WEX/LK game, another split decision job and of course Cork people were sickened by the manner they went out against us and the Waterford crowd, who were eleven points up at one stage were furious that Clement Smyth was not put off for 'taking out John Mullane' althouhgh our Clem was as innocent as the child that was born yesterday and John quite clearly injured himself.
So all in all refs were in the news for all the wrong reasons in 2001. Ah! But what a hurling year."
Pat O'Connor 2001, I am sure he reffed the final!! I've defended some Galway 'causes' in my time, but Alan Kelly was never one of them, and likely never will be.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 2296 - 19/08/2019 18:20:25    2227638

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Your Holiness. In 2001 Pat O'connor refereed the semi final and I am not sure if he reffed the final. When did Denton referee a final involving Galway? Time was was up in the Tipp Wexford game, but he possibly should not have blown up the game as Paul Codd, a ferocious long striker of points, had just secured possession well out the field. There is no guarantee he would have scored it of course. Wexford folk were unhappy, but they were twice more so when Padraig Horan (0ffaly) put off both Liam Dunne and Mitch Jordan for what appeared very trivial reasons indeed in the replay.
Now Padraig Horan reffed the Munster Final and with the two minutes to go and the sides level David Kennedy the Tipp CB laid down on the ball in a savage Limerick attach-it was a free in all day long, but Horan gave it the other way, and Tipp fell over the line.
Now if you think that Pat O'Connor (Ahane) and Johnny Murphy (Ballylanders), both reared next to the Tipp border would go out of their way to favour the Premier County- well you just do not know the depth of LK/TP rivalry. As Nicky English once said and he was a border man too, 'if Tipp were playing the Arabs, the Limerick crowd would be shouting for the Arabs'- and how right he and that is coming from a West Limerick man.
Now I admire James Owens'es manner of refereing, he took his time and consulted his linesman, a fellow referee, and after much thought reached the proper conclusion. It was all in very sharp contrast to the way Allan Kelly, your county man, handled the Waterford/Tipp last year and the recent semi final. His performances probably also precluded him from refereeing yesterdays game. Having said al that we lost that game ourselves as indeed we lost 2001 Munster Final. We had chances to win both games. Blaming the referee is pointless and I know in my heart neither Padraig Horan or All Kelly purposely set out to take the game off us, or indeed does any other referee either.
PS. In 2001 Clare were unhappy with the way Dickie Murphy handled the first round game with Tipp another cliff hanger and we ourselves felt very hard done by how Michael Wadding Waterford reffed the WEX/LK game, another split decision job and of course Cork people were sickened by the manner they went out against us and the Waterford crowd, who were eleven points up at one stage were furious that Clement Smyth was not put off for 'taking out John Mullane' althouhgh our Clem was as innocent as the child that was born yesterday and John quite clearly injured himself.
So all in all refs were in the news for all the wrong reasons in 2001. Ah! But what a hurling year."
Have to agree with you Oldtourman. Just one thing though. Clem might have been innocent on that occasion but had more notches on his hurley than Billy the Kid had on his gun for taking opponents out.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 632 - 19/08/2019 18:28:40    2227642

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So since yesterday the reasons it wasn't a red card include:

It ruined the game
It ruined the game and it's really expensive to go to a game.
It ruined the game, it's really expensive to go and game was over after the sending off
Hogan isn't that type of player
They're wearing helmets, knocks to the head aren't that bad.
He wasn't seriously injured
Barrett went down easy/ throw his legs up in the air
It was raining
It was an all Ireland final
The ref spoke to the linesman before making a decision.
Barrett also caught Hogan earlier around the head(whilst going for the ball, by the way Conor fogarty also caught Brendan Maher in much the same vein during 1st half but curiously no one mentions it)
We don't know Hogan's intent because apparently that makes a difference, maybe Barrett was really warm and Hogan was being a gentleman and attempting waft him down with his elbow
Did anyone mention it ruined the game??

Reasons it was a red card:
The actual rules!

tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 815 - 19/08/2019 18:50:15    2227645

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