National Forum

Kilkenny and Tipp Give Us A Traditional All Ireland Hurling Final

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


I dont think he meant to make contact like he did. He WAS late in the tackle and elbowed Barrett. Thats a red card all day long.

aidan64 (Kerry) - Posts: 544 - 19/08/2019 12:19:41    2227444

Link

Tipp may have won out in the end but the red changed the game no end, surprised that KK just kept lamping ball after ball on top of the spare man, bizarre to watch.

And it was a red all day long, unfortunate because the last second change of feet did him but still a red. We won't see Hogan again if Cody stays on.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 6518 - 19/08/2019 12:24:39    2227445

Link

Replying To PaudieSull1:  "I have often been critical of refs but thought Owens had a good game yesterday, yes he let a lot of pulling and dragging go but he was trying to let the game flow ......that type of tackling is now the norm when KK are involved in a game and others respond to it hence it evens itself not out.

Thought he got the red card spot on, very unfortunate for Richie and no one likes to see a man off in the all Ireland but he clearly hit Cathal Barrett in the head with an elbow ......under rule that is a red, Owens did what he is meant to do and enforced the rule

As for the earlier Barrett incident I thought Barrett was going for the ball but got the tackle wrong, hence should have been a yellow card....don't think there was the intent in the strike to make it a red......looked a genuine attempt to play the ball that was mistimed"
'thought Barrett was going for the ball'
So a player can strike an opponent in the face with a hurley if he's going for the ball, whether the ball is there or not, whether he hits the ball or not - it doesn't matter that he forces his opponent to leave the field due to the injuries to his face! What about reckless play or dangerous play or striking an opponent? Not to mention striking an opponent in the head. If the rule were to be applied Barrett should have seen red but we all know that refs allow some and disallow others.
When managers, commentators and the media place more emphasis on 'going to war', big hits and physical strength instead of sporting behaviour, self-discipline, skill or fair play then we get these situations where one of the most skillful hurlers gets sent off in an All-Ireland final, a tragedy for him and his family.
The problem with the game at both club level and county level is that the most skillful players don't get proper protection so they either become very aggressive or cowardly on the field of play.
The debate should not be about one incident or one player, it should be about the game, is it a sport or is it a form of warfare?

baire (Galway) - Posts: 766 - 19/08/2019 12:29:05    2227447

Link

Replying To Ban:  "I think the problem is consistency though. Should Barrett have been on the pitch at that stage? Whats in, whats out. Does it depend on which way the wind is blowing? Its frustrating!"
I agree 100% - most of my issues with officiating is down to consistency or lack of. I am referring to the incident in isolation and can see exactly why a red card was given. If the ref had been applying the rules consistently throughout the game then we would have seen umpteen fouls for over carrying, throwing the ball, at least one penalty that I can think off the top of my head and possibly as you mention a red card for Barrett. The problem with this inconsistency is that it then angers management, players and supporters who turn round and point to many decisions they felt went against them. Another problem is that a lot of the rules have been overlooked in the Hurling Championship this year (and prob the last few truth being told) so then when you get a ref who applies a rule which maybe wasn't up til then he will get lambasted. I think the only solution is that the GAA start and get Hurling referees to consistently apply the rules as written or else change the written rule to be in line with the applied rule. Having a rule book and not always referring to it only leads to trouble.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 3887 - 19/08/2019 12:37:40    2227452

Link

Replying To sourmilk93:  "But But But Barrett made a meal of it........"
Don't think he made a meal of it. We could all see clearly that on contact with hogan's elbow/shoulder, Barretts head swung back from the impact. Maybe accidental or deliberate, I don't know but he could have been seriously injured. How do you know that Barrett made a meal of it. My interpretation was payback by Ritchie for a nasty bang in the face he received early on in the game by Barrett. That should have been a red card offence. The rule states that any contact to the head accidental or willful is a red card, plain and simple.
..

Blockandhook (Wexford) - Posts: 353 - 19/08/2019 12:40:54    2227454

Link

Replying To arock:  "No idea what the hell you blabbering about seriously is that your considered response to my one liner! I think you have wrong man here"
Sarry aRock. Not sure what I did but the comment was for Katser. And I made a few typos that made it harder to understand. No hard feelings I hope.

Gowran_Yank (Kilkenny) - Posts: 77 - 19/08/2019 12:44:00    2227455

Link

It's amazing to watch the reactions to this red in hurling..."oh he was hard done by"....maybe he was but if it was the football final and a similar issue the pitch forks would be out.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 9877 - 19/08/2019 12:54:09    2227463

Link

Replying To Breezy:  "Hitting someone by accident and trying to hurt someone are very different things to me"
how do you know hitting Richie was an accident

mooncat (Kilkenny) - Posts: 469 - 19/08/2019 13:07:44    2227470

Link

Replying To Ban:  "I think the problem is consistency though. Should Barrett have been on the pitch at that stage? Whats in, whats out. Does it depend on which way the wind is blowing? Its frustrating!"
Exactly. Thought it was incredible Barrett didn't get a card for his earlier swing across Hogan. Potentially red card and certainty a yellow led to a frustrated reaction from Hogan.
Hogan deserved a red for a clumsy challenge but what a difference it would have made if Barrett was the one to walk earlier.

skillet (Limerick) - Posts: 578 - 19/08/2019 13:13:31    2227471

Link

Replying To perfect10:  "plenty of refs would have went with hurlings age old "nobody wants to see someone sent off in an all ireland final,hes not that kind of player" nonsense.
did it not occur to cody that james owens probably had his mind made up but just wanted to check with the linesman in case he thought he was wrong?"
Was he ever any different? Cody was being his own typically canny and contradictory self...how can he say on the one hand "you need to be very sure if you're going to give a red card" and nearly in the same breath criticize the ref for taking the time to consult linesman, etc before confirming his decision...complete tosh from Cody. Without question a red card and several commentators too have embarrassed themselves.

Flaherty (UK) - Posts: 78 - 19/08/2019 13:16:18    2227474

Link

Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "Exactly, Hogan barely caught his visor. The reason he got a red was because of the simulation from Barrett. It;s hard to blame the ref, he doesn't get to see any replays. If he had, it would have been a yellow at the most for Hogan, and a yellow for Barrett for simulation But as in professional soccer, refs tend to judge a foul more by the reactions then the actual foul. That's why players dive and exaggerate; it works. It's a shame to see it creeping in to the GAA."
Creeping into the GAA- now- A certain county in an All Ireland Semi Final in the early 1980s had a player who soloed the ball with his head held forward and nearer the ball than most players would. An opposition player attempted to knock off his stick and accidentally hit the soloing player in the face in the process inflicting a wound. When the injured player was on the ground those giving him medical aid rubbed the blood all over face to make his injuries look worse in order the tackler put off which he was. Simulation has been here with decades

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2284 - 19/08/2019 13:17:48    2227475

Link

Replying To Blockandhook:  "Don't think he made a meal of it. We could all see clearly that on contact with hogan's elbow/shoulder, Barretts head swung back from the impact. Maybe accidental or deliberate, I don't know but he could have been seriously injured. How do you know that Barrett made a meal of it. My interpretation was payback by Ritchie for a nasty bang in the face he received early on in the game by Barrett. That should have been a red card offence. The rule states that any contact to the head accidental or willful is a red card, plain and simple.
.."
Barrett most definitely didnt make a meal of it. My post way aimed at your fellow wexford poster who tried tell us Barrett made a meal of it.
If Richie Hogan was seeking out revenge for the earlier incident hes a very very silly man.

sourmilk93 (Roscommon) - Posts: 139 - 19/08/2019 13:19:26    2227476

Link

Replying To yew_tree:  "It's amazing to watch the reactions to this red in hurling..."oh he was hard done by"....maybe he was but if it was the football final and a similar issue the pitch forks would be out."
Why compare both codes when there isn't any valid comparison?

baire (Galway) - Posts: 766 - 19/08/2019 13:26:57    2227482

Link

Replying To ballydalane:  "But Bon, I thought you were such a stickler for the rules no matter what team is involved?"
Sarcasm my friend. I felt barrett got away with murder, should have got the line, a fella you'd never give the benefit of the doubt to. Richie was billing, went in to lay him out with a shoulder no doubt about it, but ends up catching him in the puss with the elbow instead, red card all day long.
Ruined the match as a spectacle but sure that's how it goes.
But to listen to Jackie Tyrrell last nite trying to defend it was painfull, shefflin I wouldn't expect any different from to be honest. I'd expected more from jackie though, always came across as a guy who talks sense.
Maybe Cody might have to start blowing the whistle in training from now on.

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 754 - 19/08/2019 13:34:00    2227487

Link

Replying To mooncat:  "how do you know hitting Richie was an accident"
I dont but like everyone else including the referee we have to make our minds up as best we can using what we saw and at first glance which is all the ref gets it didnt look like much and most people in the pub I watched it hardly noticed the tackle as opposed to Richie running in fast from distance to hit a guy which led to awhs abd gasps from the whole pub.

Watching it back after it looks a bit worse but my best guess is still that it was unintentional.

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 294 - 19/08/2019 13:38:40    2227489

Link

Replying To Flaherty:  "Was he ever any different? Cody was being his own typically canny and contradictory self...how can he say on the one hand "you need to be very sure if you're going to give a red card" and nearly in the same breath criticize the ref for taking the time to consult linesman, etc before confirming his decision...complete tosh from Cody. Without question a red card and several commentators too have embarrassed themselves."
Isn't Cody the Manager who previously said he doesn't comment on referees's decisions.He had plenty to say to journalists yesterday after the game.He can have no complaint.10 years ago in the 2009 Final,his Kilkenny team were lucky to beat a young Tipp team who had a player sent off and Kilkenny also got a controversial penalty in that game.Not much about it but Tipp should have had a penalty in the first half yesterday.

endgame (Roscommon) - Posts: 1149 - 19/08/2019 13:43:30    2227490

Link

Replying To skillet:  "Exactly. Thought it was incredible Barrett didn't get a card for his earlier swing across Hogan. Potentially red card and certainty a yellow led to a frustrated reaction from Hogan.
Hogan deserved a red for a clumsy challenge but what a difference it would have made if Barrett was the one to walk earlier."
Clumsy challenge are you for real? It was a cowardly elbow he new exactly what he was doing.

sourmilk93 (Roscommon) - Posts: 139 - 19/08/2019 13:51:12    2227496

Link

Replying To Offside_Rule:  "I agree 100% - most of my issues with officiating is down to consistency or lack of. I am referring to the incident in isolation and can see exactly why a red card was given. If the ref had been applying the rules consistently throughout the game then we would have seen umpteen fouls for over carrying, throwing the ball, at least one penalty that I can think off the top of my head and possibly as you mention a red card for Barrett. The problem with this inconsistency is that it then angers management, players and supporters who turn round and point to many decisions they felt went against them. Another problem is that a lot of the rules have been overlooked in the Hurling Championship this year (and prob the last few truth being told) so then when you get a ref who applies a rule which maybe wasn't up til then he will get lambasted. I think the only solution is that the GAA start and get Hurling referees to consistently apply the rules as written or else change the written rule to be in line with the applied rule. Having a rule book and not always referring to it only leads to trouble."
Section 5 deals with "aggressive fouls" and lists the following;

5.1 To strike or to attempt to strike an opponent with head, arm, elbow, hand or knee.
5.2 To strike or to attempt to strike an opponent with a hurley, with minimal force.
5.3 To strike an opponent with a hurley, either with force or causing injury.
5.4 To attempt to strike an opponent with a hurley, with force.
5.5 To kick or attempt to kick an opponent, with minimal force.
5.6 To kick an opponent, either with force or causing injury.
5.7 To attempt to kick an opponent, with force.
5.8 To stamp on an opponent.
5.9 To behave in any way which is dangerous to an opponent.
5.10 To inflict injury recklessly on an opponent by means other than these stated above.
5.11 To spit at an opponent.
5.12 To contribute to a melee.
5.13 To strike, attempt to strike, to interfere with, or to use threatening or abuse language or conduct to a Match Official.
5.14 To assault an opposing Team Official.
Penalty for the above Fouls -
(i) Order offender off.
(ii) Free puck from where Foul occurred, except as provided under Exceptions of Rule 2.2.

To my mind, if we're all so keen to apply the letter of the law, Barrett should have been red carded under any one of the rules 5.2, 5.3 and 5.9. So just the three "aggressive fouls" rules James Owens chose to ignore yesterday.

There is no mention of "intent", "deliberate", "accidental" in the above rules, as much as people may wish to apply such nuances retrospectively.

What's really in effect is below:

(i) Order the player off except in circumstances as described in (ii) below;
(ii) If, in the opinion of the referee, any of the fouls as described in section 5.1-5.14 were not committed with deliberate intent and malice of forethought by the offending player, the referee may choose to caution the offending player;

The problem with part (ii) though is that it doesn't exist, but it's effectively the code that referees work with (when it suits, hence the inconsistency). It's probably the very definition of the "unwritten rule".

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1082 - 19/08/2019 14:07:28    2227503

Link

Replying To yew_tree:  "It's amazing to watch the reactions to this red in hurling..."oh he was hard done by"....maybe he was but if it was the football final and a similar issue the pitch forks would be out."
If a player in a football match produced a hurl and started working off the small-ball rules, that would be wild all right. Might do something to make the game entertaining, which I'm all for, and if the player in question was on the team playing against Dublin, it might even help them win. But while I'm all for making football more enjoyable, introducing a crowd of pitch fork waving yokels might be taking it too far. I like a clear separation between my field sports and my evenings spent chasing down witches or anthropomorphic creations of crazed German scientists.

festinog (Galway) - Posts: 2748 - 19/08/2019 14:37:05    2227515

Link

Definite red card - should be no debate. Tyrell and Shefflin's opinions on it are cringeworthy.

Brolly (Monaghan) - Posts: 4472 - 19/08/2019 14:40:53    2227517

Link