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Replying To TheHermit: "At this stage Dublin supporters seem to be the GAA equivalent of climate change deniers ;D
And yes for me anyway they'll be an asterisk next to their 5 in a row given all that's gone on.
I doubt I'll be the only person that feels the same ...
But let their posters on here keep arguing black is white, sure it gives them something to do on a Friday night :D" Where will I find this asterisk? Will it be engraved on Sam ? Will I find it on Wikipedia? The only serious climate change deniers I know are the two geniuses from your own neck of the woods.
avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1974 - 27/07/2019 23:14:25
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Replying To Whammo86: "Development funding should not be based on registered members.
Why should it be? It's money to coach children, why would 60 year old registered member Hector Murphy factor in to the strategic decisions of how the GAA should allocate resources to the future of the association?
Anyone talking about London or New York are just being silly.
In 2010 out of a total population of 38k children in Dublin of the correct age over 7k were participating in GAA go games in football and pretty much 5k in hurling.
It's hard to know the overlap but I think it's likely that over 20% of the population were playing Gaelic games. They may not be registered members, but they are great numbers in Dublin playing our games and this is what this money is enabling.
Just to put some context on those numbers. There were only 8k children born in Connacht in 2010." Source of your figures re children for 2010 ?
moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 1212 - 28/07/2019 06:24:06
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Replying To moc.dna: "Source of your figures re children for 2010 ?" http://www.stsylvesters.ie/files/the-blue-wave.pdf
Page 22 of the Blue Wave proposal in 2010.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 28/07/2019 10:12:23
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Any talk of giving more money to the likes of Leitrim is really just plain silly.
Leitrim has a birth rate of about 400 a year and shrinking.
Dublin has a birth rate of over 23k a year and growing.
The money that we all argue about is money to fund coaches.
There is just no need for more coaches in Leitrim.
I think there are questions to be asked around the spending of inter county teams.
Caps on county team spending or a redistribution scheme on county team sponsorship could be looked into. You would worry though that there would just be accounting ways around those.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 28/07/2019 10:31:21
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Replying To Whammo86: "Any talk of giving more money to the likes of Leitrim is really just plain silly.
Leitrim has a birth rate of about 400 a year and shrinking.
Dublin has a birth rate of over 23k a year and growing.
The money that we all argue about is money to fund coaches.
There is just no need for more coaches in Leitrim.
I think there are questions to be asked around the spending of inter county teams.
Caps on county team spending or a redistribution scheme on county team sponsorship could be looked into. You would worry though that there would just be accounting ways around those." Ok give the less well off counties very little money and the highly populated areas most of the cash? Surely that is not fair. Why do you think giving money to help these counties is just plain silly? God forbid these counties might waste the cash that should be for the priveleged counties.
Quoting birth rates is not really helpful if we want these counties to progress. Bad enough that they have a population disadvantage without getting funded properly.
Green_Gold (Donegal) - Posts: 1876 - 28/07/2019 12:41:27
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Replying To Green_Gold: "Ok give the less well off counties very little money and the highly populated areas most of the cash? Surely that is not fair. Why do you think giving money to help these counties is just plain silly? God forbid these counties might waste the cash that should be for the priveleged counties.
Quoting birth rates is not really helpful if we want these counties to progress. Bad enough that they have a population disadvantage without getting funded properly." The less populated counties are given significant funds to help mitigate the population disadvantage take two Mongahan and Leitrim.
Leitrim GDF: 123.018k, Population of Leitrim 32.044k,= 3.72 euro per head.
Monaghan GDF 124.000, Population of Monaghan 60.483 = 2.05 per head.
Its signifcantly more 100's% then any other counties.
And rightly so, you could also say its been effective, given Monghan's success in the last few years and Leitrims this year.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 28/07/2019 13:01:10
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Replying To avonali: "Where will I find this asterisk? Will it be engraved on Sam ? Will I find it on Wikipedia? The only serious climate change deniers I know are the two geniuses from your own neck of the woods." It will be found on their own copy of the GAA records, carefully engraved in red Bic biro as a forlorn counterpoint to the one on their own shattered psyches.
steve097 (Dublin) - Posts: 109 - 28/07/2019 13:36:47
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Replying To Green_Gold: "Ok give the less well off counties very little money and the highly populated areas most of the cash? Surely that is not fair. Why do you think giving money to help these counties is just plain silly? God forbid these counties might waste the cash that should be for the priveleged counties.
Quoting birth rates is not really helpful if we want these counties to progress. Bad enough that they have a population disadvantage without getting funded properly." I think people should be funded not counties.
The money is used for coaches. You need to have people to coach.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 28/07/2019 13:40:30
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The idea that the likes of Leitrim should even be expected to compete with Dublin is preposterous.
If funding is going to be split up by population, then teams should be decided by population also. The "expert" referenced in the link claims that Dublin has 33% of the population, and can't see any issue with this. They should be playing in the Railway Cup.
iarmhi_an_mhaith (Westmeath) - Posts: 268 - 28/07/2019 13:41:26
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Replying To Green_Gold: "Ok give the less well off counties very little money and the highly populated areas most of the cash? Surely that is not fair. Why do you think giving money to help these counties is just plain silly? God forbid these counties might waste the cash that should be for the priveleged counties.
Quoting birth rates is not really helpful if we want these counties to progress. Bad enough that they have a population disadvantage without getting funded properly." A large of that 23k will never play Gaelic games so basing any funding on birth rates is absurd.
Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 28/07/2019 13:41:44
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Replying To Whammo86: "Any talk of giving more money to the likes of Leitrim is really just plain silly.
Leitrim has a birth rate of about 400 a year and shrinking.
Dublin has a birth rate of over 23k a year and growing.
The money that we all argue about is money to fund coaches.
There is just no need for more coaches in Leitrim.
I think there are questions to be asked around the spending of inter county teams.
Caps on county team spending or a redistribution scheme on county team sponsorship could be looked into. You would worry though that there would just be accounting ways around those." You can't wait for the rural counties to die.
Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 28/07/2019 13:43:07
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Replying To Green_Gold: "Ok give the less well off counties very little money and the highly populated areas most of the cash? Surely that is not fair. Why do you think giving money to help these counties is just plain silly? God forbid these counties might waste the cash that should be for the priveleged counties.
Quoting birth rates is not really helpful if we want these counties to progress. Bad enough that they have a population disadvantage without getting funded properly." Throwing money at children who aren't there is hardly good planning and use. They ARE getting funds over and above per capita.
steve097 (Dublin) - Posts: 109 - 28/07/2019 13:44:44
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Throwing money at children who will never play Gaelic games is a bad use of money.
Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 28/07/2019 13:49:24
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Replying To TheUsername: "You can flip the argument really.
Arguably Dublin have been underfunded for years and really what you can say, is that other counties particularly Kerry with their geographical and financial advantages have had massive and artificial advantages toward their success.
Let me elaborate. Those that say Dublin are financially doped do so on the basis of accepting finances to registered players that is flawed, because GDF is designated to go to registered players its designated to attract players who are not registered essentially school children etc. So that the flaw in the argument.
The second issue for those with a problem of Dublin funding is, is the 18 mill figure since 2007 in comparison to other counties. Yet that argument doesn't take into account the cumulative population those funds meet over the same period, it works out as a ratio of just over a euro a head, which is good but far off a lot of counties.
So essentially both arguments are flawed.
Ive often presented the metric for GDF per head of population which is fairer in my opinion, though id acknowledge not perfect, but i suspect likely closer to the model the GAA use based on recent comments, the break down is this:
Monaghan GDF 124.000, Population of Monaghan 60.483 2.05 per head.
Dublin GDF 1.3 mill, population 1.34 mill, ratio = 97 cent per head.
Kerry GDF 197.600 euro, population of Kerry 147.000, ratio = 1.34 euro per head.
Mayo GDF 134.29 euro, population of Mayo, 130.5k, ratio = 1.02 euro per head.
Tyrone GDF 119.000 euro, population 177.9k = 66 cent per head
Galway GDF 184.4k euro, population 258.0k = 71cent per head.
Donegal GDF 130.2k euro, population 159.1k = 81 cent per head.
Kildare GDF 341.3k euro, population 222.5k = 1.53 euro per head
Roscommon GDF, 146k euro, population 66.5k = 2.2 euro per head.
Cork GDF, 249k euro, population 542k = 45 cent per head.
Meath GDF, 367.4k, population 195.0 = 1.88 euro per head.
*That before provincial grants, east Leinster project supplements - Dublin dont get. So really other counties get significantly more then above.
So we can see that with the change the Dublins funding back in the 00's there is a fair argument there, that the funding just about brought Dublin up to about level with other countries given their specific context for the first time in DUlin history.
But lets think back before that, Dublin back before the ISC grant were getting about the same as Kerry, Cork, Meath, Kildare, yet had to spread that around a much larger population. Obviously counties with smaller populations could make that money go further. Thus Dublin were at a disadvantage to other counties and arguably those counties were financially doped when facing Dublin. Its only with an equity of funding per head of population has Dublin been able to compete on a level playing field with every one else. Its actually quite remarkable how successful we have been before the funding became equitable.
People talk of financial doping, arguably we have a right to discredit any rival out there who got the better of us, as i would contend its only since the 00s that funding per context has been made equal.
People dont like it etc, as they may have seen themselves a some remarkable county rather then one advantaged, but its certainly more equatable then it ever has been." A convenient argument. Of course you fail to mention that the measure of competition in GAA, as opposed to your GDF per player, is on a County Level. So the benefits of enormous funding feeds directly, at a minimum indirectly, into one County Team. Don't forget.... Dublin GETS THE MONEY ... how they spend it and how far they spread it is their decision. Dublin's All Ireland count in the 1980s was perhaps two, the 1990s one, the 2000's one again and low and behold in the 2010's, a period of time when the benefits of enormous funding into games development would be expected to yield results, we're heading towards 7 - but of course there's no link or correlation, co cause or no effect between the two? Wise up. All this success come with a qualification attached to them - would you have preferred three like what Tyrone and Kerry had in the 2000's (well four for the latter) without any questioning of financial advantage. Bet you would. And so would all other reasonable people.
Actually, there's two populous (relative to overall population) areas of Donegal which under contribute to Gaelic Football, namely Finn Valley and Inishowen - probably account for c.30% of the population - I'm concerned the GAA are going to loose ground their to Soccer and would like a few million from Croke Park. I just want to make sure as many young people play GAA in these areas so that we have a greater pick of players (all other things equal) that will feed into our County underage teams and ultimately our Senior teams so that we can be more competitive - like we'd like to have the strongest subs bench possible so that if we're ever in another All Ireland we can empty 5 players of similar or near similar standard on to the pitch - the more players you have the greater the likelihood of having such a subs bench (all other things equal).
Also, just on a separate note, I don't want to travel to another Croke Park neutral game to play Dublin again - I'm tired of our people perhaps incurring travel costs of E30 - E40,000 each time - it would be nice for our clubs to be able to benefit from this rather than petrol stations, toll roads and parking meters.
DonegalAtlantic (Donegal) - Posts: 111 - 28/07/2019 13:53:37
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Replying To steve097: "Throwing money at children who aren't there is hardly good planning and use. They ARE getting funds over and above per capita." So we just continue as normal? Not sure where we will end up if the GAA continue down that road but not in a good place I'd imagine. Basing funding on population just feels wrong.
Its not just about funding coaches either, money can be spent making sure they have good facilities, training pitches, clubhouses, etc.
Green_Gold (Donegal) - Posts: 1876 - 28/07/2019 13:58:34
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Replying To steve097: "It will be found on their own copy of the GAA records, carefully engraved in red Bic biro as a forlorn counterpoint to the one on their own shattered psyches." Red Bic Biro hahaha!!
lilylanger (Kildare) - Posts: 758 - 28/07/2019 14:08:04
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Replying To Green_Gold: "So we just continue as normal? Not sure where we will end up if the GAA continue down that road but not in a good place I'd imagine. Basing funding on population just feels wrong.
Its not just about funding coaches either, money can be spent making sure they have good facilities, training pitches, clubhouses, etc." Where you going with funding clubhouses and facilities!!! You are having a sick laugh, not in Dublin. You won't get funding for anything other than promoting the game and getting kids into GAA sports from the GAA rest of that you finance yourself.
arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4898 - 28/07/2019 14:51:10
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Replying To DonegalAtlantic: "A convenient argument. Of course you fail to mention that the measure of competition in GAA, as opposed to your GDF per player, is on a County Level. So the benefits of enormous funding feeds directly, at a minimum indirectly, into one County Team. Don't forget.... Dublin GETS THE MONEY ... how they spend it and how far they spread it is their decision. Dublin's All Ireland count in the 1980s was perhaps two, the 1990s one, the 2000's one again and low and behold in the 2010's, a period of time when the benefits of enormous funding into games development would be expected to yield results, we're heading towards 7 - but of course there's no link or correlation, co cause or no effect between the two? Wise up. All this success come with a qualification attached to them - would you have preferred three like what Tyrone and Kerry had in the 2000's (well four for the latter) without any questioning of financial advantage. Bet you would. And so would all other reasonable people.
Actually, there's two populous (relative to overall population) areas of Donegal which under contribute to Gaelic Football, namely Finn Valley and Inishowen - probably account for c.30% of the population - I'm concerned the GAA are going to loose ground their to Soccer and would like a few million from Croke Park. I just want to make sure as many young people play GAA in these areas so that we have a greater pick of players (all other things equal) that will feed into our County underage teams and ultimately our Senior teams so that we can be more competitive - like we'd like to have the strongest subs bench possible so that if we're ever in another All Ireland we can empty 5 players of similar or near similar standard on to the pitch - the more players you have the greater the likelihood of having such a subs bench (all other things equal).
Also, just on a separate note, I don't want to travel to another Croke Park neutral game to play Dublin again - I'm tired of our people perhaps incurring travel costs of E30 - E40,000 each time - it would be nice for our clubs to be able to benefit from this rather than petrol stations, toll roads and parking meters." With all due respect you aren't making a point here, your just venting. Yes all funds go into the county, that's stating the obvious. You are venting on the assumption that Dublin funding is unfair, I don't believe it is and what you wrote doesn't convince me. Some of the winning all Ireland stats are wrong as well but that's irrelevant.
Turn the argument on it's head, if Donegal had a population of over a million, would they deserve parity with every other county per head of population pro rata, they would in my opinion. It's a loafs and fishes to people argument. Really simple Maths on the breakdown. If one county get 12 loafs and fishes and another 50, that seems unfair. If however one county is sharing 12 amongst 10 and the other 50 between 55, who has the better deal. According to the arguments presented its the one with 50.
I can see your passionate about Donegal and I'd admire that, I can see you are concerned about areas of the county. We have similar issues in Dublin. As someone who has played rugby, football and soccer all my life I think the correct approach is to give opportunity's to all sports, if that's done kids have a choice to make both at a high and lower standard, it's creates a lifelong involvement and loyalty in my experience. Maybe the answer for Donegal is as you say target areas, it's a good idea, I'd have no problem with Donegal getting increased funds for that - a question I have asked in the past is why does a county like Kerry with a similar population and make up get so much more in GDF then Donegal, that's true unfairness in my opinion, similarly, Mayo. I think Donegal have a strong case to fair.
Equally I don't blame you on Croke park, I'd be a firm advocate of Dublin not playing 2 S8 games in Croke Park, completely unfair. I think their are self serving interests in the GAA for this that I've recently looked into that are clear and contrived, but I agree it's unfair and should be changed. Hopefully not next year though as we are likely to play Kerry in the S8s there next year, the whingeing will be a thing of beauty and good craic.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 28/07/2019 15:13:02
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Replying To DonegalAtlantic: "A convenient argument. Of course you fail to mention that the measure of competition in GAA, as opposed to your GDF per player, is on a County Level. So the benefits of enormous funding feeds directly, at a minimum indirectly, into one County Team. Don't forget.... Dublin GETS THE MONEY ... how they spend it and how far they spread it is their decision. Dublin's All Ireland count in the 1980s was perhaps two, the 1990s one, the 2000's one again and low and behold in the 2010's, a period of time when the benefits of enormous funding into games development would be expected to yield results, we're heading towards 7 - but of course there's no link or correlation, co cause or no effect between the two? Wise up. All this success come with a qualification attached to them - would you have preferred three like what Tyrone and Kerry had in the 2000's (well four for the latter) without any questioning of financial advantage. Bet you would. And so would all other reasonable people.
Actually, there's two populous (relative to overall population) areas of Donegal which under contribute to Gaelic Football, namely Finn Valley and Inishowen - probably account for c.30% of the population - I'm concerned the GAA are going to loose ground their to Soccer and would like a few million from Croke Park. I just want to make sure as many young people play GAA in these areas so that we have a greater pick of players (all other things equal) that will feed into our County underage teams and ultimately our Senior teams so that we can be more competitive - like we'd like to have the strongest subs bench possible so that if we're ever in another All Ireland we can empty 5 players of similar or near similar standard on to the pitch - the more players you have the greater the likelihood of having such a subs bench (all other things equal).
Also, just on a separate note, I don't want to travel to another Croke Park neutral game to play Dublin again - I'm tired of our people perhaps incurring travel costs of E30 - E40,000 each time - it would be nice for our clubs to be able to benefit from this rather than petrol stations, toll roads and parking meters." With all due respect you aren't making a point here, your just venting. Yes all funds go into the county, that's stating the obvious. You are venting on the assumption that Dublin funding is unfair, I don't believe it is and what you wrote doesn't convince me. Some of the winning all Ireland stats are wrong as well but that's irrelevant.
Turn the argument on it's head, if Donegal had a population of over a million, would they deserve parity with every other county per head of population pro rata, they would in my opinion. It's a loafs and fishes to people argument. Really simple Maths on the breakdown. If one county get 12 loafs and fishes and another 50, that seems unfair. If however one county is sharing 12 amongst 10 and the other 50 between 55, who has the better deal. According to the arguments presented its the one with 50.
I can see your passionate about Donegal and I'd admire that, I can see you are concerned about areas of the county. We have similar issues in Dublin. As someone who has played rugby, football and soccer all my life I think the correct approach is to give opportunity's to all sports, if that's done kids have a choice to make both at a high and lower standard, it's creates a lifelong involvement and loyalty in my experience. Maybe the answer for Donegal is as you say target areas, it's a good idea, I'd have no problem with Donegal getting increased funds for that - a question I have asked in the past is why does a county like Kerry with a similar population and make up get so much more in GDF then Donegal, that's true unfairness in my opinion, similarly, Mayo. I think Donegal have a strong case to fair.
Equally I don't blame you on Croke park, I'd be a firm advocate of Dublin not playing 2 S8 games in Croke Park, completely unfair. I think their are self serving interests in the GAA for this that I've recently looked into that are clear and contrived, but I agree it's unfair and should be changed. Hopefully not next year though as we are likely to play Kerry in the S8s there next year, the whingeing will be a thing of beauty and good craic.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 28/07/2019 15:13:14
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Replying To DonegalAtlantic: "A convenient argument. Of course you fail to mention that the measure of competition in GAA, as opposed to your GDF per player, is on a County Level. So the benefits of enormous funding feeds directly, at a minimum indirectly, into one County Team. Don't forget.... Dublin GETS THE MONEY ... how they spend it and how far they spread it is their decision. Dublin's All Ireland count in the 1980s was perhaps two, the 1990s one, the 2000's one again and low and behold in the 2010's, a period of time when the benefits of enormous funding into games development would be expected to yield results, we're heading towards 7 - but of course there's no link or correlation, co cause or no effect between the two? Wise up. All this success come with a qualification attached to them - would you have preferred three like what Tyrone and Kerry had in the 2000's (well four for the latter) without any questioning of financial advantage. Bet you would. And so would all other reasonable people.
Actually, there's two populous (relative to overall population) areas of Donegal which under contribute to Gaelic Football, namely Finn Valley and Inishowen - probably account for c.30% of the population - I'm concerned the GAA are going to loose ground their to Soccer and would like a few million from Croke Park. I just want to make sure as many young people play GAA in these areas so that we have a greater pick of players (all other things equal) that will feed into our County underage teams and ultimately our Senior teams so that we can be more competitive - like we'd like to have the strongest subs bench possible so that if we're ever in another All Ireland we can empty 5 players of similar or near similar standard on to the pitch - the more players you have the greater the likelihood of having such a subs bench (all other things equal).
Also, just on a separate note, I don't want to travel to another Croke Park neutral game to play Dublin again - I'm tired of our people perhaps incurring travel costs of E30 - E40,000 each time - it would be nice for our clubs to be able to benefit from this rather than petrol stations, toll roads and parking meters." The only thing us Dubs should keep repeating until it penetrates some very dense skulls. 1, GAA money is given to Dublin to solely and only spend it on getting participants into the game. 2, Dublin self funds itself. 3, Dublin cannot nor do not spend GAA funding on anything other than what they are allowed to spend it on. The issue you raise Re Finn Valley and competition from other sports is the exact same reason the GAA funds Dublin games promotion. 33% of pop lives in Dublin it stands Dublin must get a significant funding to ensure kids take up games. It is not for anything else every player in GAA is entitled to same GAA funding that applies to Dublin players as anywhere else. Additional funding should only be given to counties that promote ALL our GAA games not just one code. If Dublin self finances that is Dublins business and tough on the rest.
arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4898 - 28/07/2019 15:17:38
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