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I'm regularly irked by umpires. I honestly don't think they all take their job seriously. Take last night for example. The umpire was standing 3 feet off the post and waved a ball wide, not tracking the flight of the ball luckily the referee saw it went over the bar and went in and corrected him.
Last year during the U21 Leinster final, Galway got a point which was about 2ft wide. John Keenan's umpire got a call against Wexford totally wrong in the league last year, again standing 3 ft off the post. Luckily Barry Kelly was doing the line and behind the flight of the ball. These are just a couple of examples.
Surely there has to be a better way than a referee bringing 4 of his mates to stand on the 4 posts?
I think we need to start testing these umpires properly. I have done umpire plenty of times, unfortunately, and while its not always easy all you have to do is follow the flight of the ball and be in line with the post.
We have tech to test umpires and while I do accept human nature, I think the decisions are often too big to be made by some man whose cognitive skills might not be up to the job.
There is no problem making at least 1 umpire an up and coming referee in the county, ideally 2.
StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1736 - 18/07/2019 22:49:44
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Replying To StoreysTash: "I'm regularly irked by umpires. I honestly don't think they all take their job seriously. Take last night for example. The umpire was standing 3 feet off the post and waved a ball wide, not tracking the flight of the ball luckily the referee saw it went over the bar and went in and corrected him.
Last year during the U21 Leinster final, Galway got a point which was about 2ft wide. John Keenan's umpire got a call against Wexford totally wrong in the league last year, again standing 3 ft off the post. Luckily Barry Kelly was doing the line and behind the flight of the ball. These are just a couple of examples.
Surely there has to be a better way than a referee bringing 4 of his mates to stand on the 4 posts?
I think we need to start testing these umpires properly. I have done umpire plenty of times, unfortunately, and while its not always easy all you have to do is follow the flight of the ball and be in line with the post.
We have tech to test umpires and while I do accept human nature, I think the decisions are often too big to be made by some man whose cognitive skills might not be up to the job.
There is no problem making at least 1 umpire an up and coming referee in the county, ideally 2." I think it's a role that needs doing away with to be honest. The GAA isn't exactly tight on money and , without trying to start a row about counties funding , I think it would be worth there while to gradually roll out a hawkeye or hawkeye like system , at the end of the day if you add up expenses and whatever else an umpire gets out of his days job , multiply that by 4 and then take into account how many matches in said ground per year , I'm sure it wouldn't take an exceptionally long period of time to begin to see savings from having an electronic system in place. Humans are capable of errors, whether it's just plain poor judgment, bad positioning or something like sun in the eyes , to be relying solely on the judgment of one man or two to decide some of the biggest games in the sport is risky business.
Highandmighty (Leitrim) - Posts: 54 - 19/07/2019 00:06:20
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I never understood why they stand beside the post as opposed to behind the posts, which would mean they could see the flight of the ball perfectly.
PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1655 - 19/07/2019 06:58:33
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Tis purely another element of the past inside in the GAA that is long past it's day and needs to be brought up to date. A lot of what is allowed to continue is from a bygone era and while there's plenty that's nice and all about that it's unfair on the players to expect them to move on while everything else stands still.
Train the referees and officials professionally and it'll improve standards. Have a test to access their ability and reduce the age profile.
I wouldn't hold my breath though.
catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 19/07/2019 07:50:57
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I think the role of the umpire is being understated here. He has many responsibilities apart from the obvious point, goal or wide. The 45/65 is an important one and the referee will tend to rely on his umpire if the action is close to the endline when the ball goes out. Signalling where the ball went out for the 45/65 to be taken allows the referee to get into position for the kick/puck. Watching for a square ball particulalry from open play when the ref may not be able to get into position in time unlike in set play.
The umpire will also be the eyes in the back of the refs head keeping an eye out for off the ball stuff. He'll also be able to advise of other potential fouls inside the 21m. We often do see much communication between ref and umpire but it is happening. They have signals that they use between each other of not hooked up with electronically. Good communication and signalling are important.
At inter-county level and many Club championships, the referee will use the same team of umpires with whom he will have discussed with many times what he expects of them.
Umpires don't get a penny. A cup of tea and a sandwich at half-time and a few hours of their day gone. At inter-county level that could be a full day. Sean Hurson (Tyrone) reffed in Killarney last weekend. Think of the logisitics there. He has to "look after" them out of his expenses.
I suspect most day because the love the games and want to stay involved in some way. I'd doubt their doing it for the perks.
Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 19/07/2019 10:06:43
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Replying To Sindar: "I think the role of the umpire is being understated here. He has many responsibilities apart from the obvious point, goal or wide. The 45/65 is an important one and the referee will tend to rely on his umpire if the action is close to the endline when the ball goes out. Signalling where the ball went out for the 45/65 to be taken allows the referee to get into position for the kick/puck. Watching for a square ball particulalry from open play when the ref may not be able to get into position in time unlike in set play.
The umpire will also be the eyes in the back of the refs head keeping an eye out for off the ball stuff. He'll also be able to advise of other potential fouls inside the 21m. We often do see much communication between ref and umpire but it is happening. They have signals that they use between each other of not hooked up with electronically. Good communication and signalling are important.
At inter-county level and many Club championships, the referee will use the same team of umpires with whom he will have discussed with many times what he expects of them.
Umpires don't get a penny. A cup of tea and a sandwich at half-time and a few hours of their day gone. At inter-county level that could be a full day. Sean Hurson (Tyrone) reffed in Killarney last weekend. Think of the logisitics there. He has to "look after" them out of his expenses.
I suspect most day because the love the games and want to stay involved in some way. I'd doubt their doing it for the perks." Well said Sindar. Umpires do it for the love of the game, association, parish. It's a huge honour for a club to have a top quality referee, and most umpires do it for the glory of their club. They can be as important to a club as a successful team.
SouthOfTheGap (Donegal) - Posts: 585 - 19/07/2019 11:10:02
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I am not saying they are doing it for the perks or anything.
But a lad standing 3ft off the post, guessing whether a ball was wide or not, is either not taking his job seriously or doesn't care about the ramifications of inaccurate decision making.
Referees get slaughtered about missing a free or anything - the impact of a bad umpire decision is just as serious.
I understand there's 50/50 calls for 65s etc and sun in their eyes at times but thats when the other officials need to help them out.
I don't see why James Owens or Fergal Horgan can't bring 4 other referees from Wexford or Tipp, pay them properly and get better people on the posts used to the big day where they might one day be in the middle.
StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1736 - 19/07/2019 12:08:27
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Replying To StoreysTash: "I am not saying they are doing it for the perks or anything.
But a lad standing 3ft off the post, guessing whether a ball was wide or not, is either not taking his job seriously or doesn't care about the ramifications of inaccurate decision making.
Referees get slaughtered about missing a free or anything - the impact of a bad umpire decision is just as serious.
I understand there's 50/50 calls for 65s etc and sun in their eyes at times but thats when the other officials need to help them out.
I don't see why James Owens or Fergal Horgan can't bring 4 other referees from Wexford or Tipp, pay them properly and get better people on the posts used to the big day where they might one day be in the middle." There are already three other referees on duty in addition to the man in the middle. The last thing we need is another four on each post. Your argument is that a referee on the post can do a better job. I don't see why that would be the case. Umpires will make mistakes just like everyone else. James Owens or Fergal Horgan or any other ref handpick their own umpires because they trust them and they're usually the same for each game. He's assessed on the performance of his umpires. I'm sure Alan Kelly (Austin Gleeson "goal" in 2017) got that feedback last year.
Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 19/07/2019 12:45:42
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Its time that umpires were qualified referees, not just a good club man or the Refs brother. Theres too much riding on some of the poor decisions they make, if they were referees they could actually make calls for the Referee in charge. Its beyond me why this hasn't happened at inter county level. I'd sooner have an unqualified person doing the job of a linesman rather than doing umpire.
Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 1913 - 19/07/2019 13:23:22
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Replying To Sindar: "There are already three other referees on duty in addition to the man in the middle. The last thing we need is another four on each post. Your argument is that a referee on the post can do a better job. I don't see why that would be the case. Umpires will make mistakes just like everyone else. James Owens or Fergal Horgan or any other ref handpick their own umpires because they trust them and they're usually the same for each game. He's assessed on the performance of his umpires. I'm sure Alan Kelly (Austin Gleeson "goal" in 2017) got that feedback last year." So how do you justify a point like Wexford got the other night when the ball went at least 1ft inside the post, the umpire was standing 3ft off the post, and only for the referee knew it was a point it would have been a wide? It wouldn't have mattered to the result, but I don't think it would be unreasonable for a team to expect the umpire to at least have to do a test of his capability to do the job, not just tell the ref to bring 4 of the lads on with him.
I also have no problem with umpires getting a few bob for their efforts.
I'd sooner have an unqualified person doing the job of a linesman rather than doing umpire.
Bon (Kildare)
100% agree Bon. The decisions a linesman makes are 50-50 often, the decisions an umpire makes are absolutely vital all the time.
StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1736 - 19/07/2019 13:57:45
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The short answer is no. That may not be fair to generalize about them all. However I have seen them shrug their shoulders about a score. Standing in front of the post looking straight up trying make a decision. Watching two players or one player flaking 10 feet away before the throw but not seeing it as part of their job to intervene or report it. Hand bag stuff my a--se.
With today's technology they are not necessary or at least one in a position (may be elevated box with instant replay) behind the goal. Most calls he could make with out aid straight away. Again let play continue and the war room review all scores. Call down and correct any wrong decisions. This is a job for a properly trained score recorder not someone who comes along with the ref for a free meal and expenses. Put two refs on the field or four lines men (one in each half)with authority to flag off the ball stuff.
As much as I loved the games of the sixties it was played at half the speed of todays game. The game has moved on every way with managers, coaching and 7 day a week training but officiating stands still. Red cards, yellow cards and black cards all just added work to one referee. For god sake get a time clock and take score recording out of the refs hands so the goal keeper can restart play..
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2665 - 19/07/2019 14:21:54
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Replying To StoreysTash: "So how do you justify a point like Wexford got the other night when the ball went at least 1ft inside the post, the umpire was standing 3ft off the post, and only for the referee knew it was a point it would have been a wide? It wouldn't have mattered to the result, but I don't think it would be unreasonable for a team to expect the umpire to at least have to do a test of his capability to do the job, not just tell the ref to bring 4 of the lads on with him.
I also have no problem with umpires getting a few bob for their efforts.
I'd sooner have an unqualified person doing the job of a linesman rather than doing umpire.
Bon (Kildare)
100% agree Bon. The decisions a linesman makes are 50-50 often, the decisions an umpire makes are absolutely vital all the time." Well obviously you put a referee on the post to act as an umpire because he'll never make a mistake like that umpire!! That's your argument, right?
Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 19/07/2019 16:09:20
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Replying To Highandmighty: "I think it's a role that needs doing away with to be honest. The GAA isn't exactly tight on money and , without trying to start a row about counties funding , I think it would be worth there while to gradually roll out a hawkeye or hawkeye like system , at the end of the day if you add up expenses and whatever else an umpire gets out of his days job , multiply that by 4 and then take into account how many matches in said ground per year , I'm sure it wouldn't take an exceptionally long period of time to begin to see savings from having an electronic system in place. Humans are capable of errors, whether it's just plain poor judgment, bad positioning or something like sun in the eyes , to be relying solely on the judgment of one man or two to decide some of the biggest games in the sport is risky business." What expenses? They get a few quid for mileage and food, some free gear, and the very top officials get put up in a hotel for All Ireland Finals. To install and maintain Hawkeye in one county ground would cover that for a year and be lucky to have that system in use more than six times a year plus it needs tech people to run it. A waste of money unless they get a generous sponsor. But Hawkeye won't ring the ref if the corner forward is flaking the fullback or abusing his family. Has the standard of umpiring gotten any worse recently or is it just that we can see more cure-all technological alternatives?
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7359 - 19/07/2019 16:51:30
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Replying To SouthOfTheGap: "Well said Sindar. Umpires do it for the love of the game, association, parish. It's a huge honour for a club to have a top quality referee, and most umpires do it for the glory of their club. They can be as important to a club as a successful team." A club would want to be quare hard up for an umpire to mean anywhere near as much as the team
Highandmighty (Leitrim) - Posts: 54 - 19/07/2019 17:15:20
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I think they take they take their role seriously. The problem is often standing beside a post is not the best position to see if a ball has went between the posts. The referee often has a much better view to judge this.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1356 - 19/07/2019 22:43:57
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There must be technology available where a chip can be inserted into the sliotar, and when the ball dissects the posts (to coin a phrase from Ger Canning), the ref gets a beep or something on his watch indicating a score.
Or we just use a second set of nets for the points.
Might be a problem when the players hit the ball two miles in the sky which they seem to do these days, so if a player hits it too high for the ref's beeper or the points net, tough, it doesn't count.
ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1246 - 20/07/2019 00:09:26
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Replying To bdbuddah: "I think they take they take their role seriously. The problem is often standing beside a post is not the best position to see if a ball has went between the posts. The referee often has a much better view to judge this." I completely agree. For most of the controversial wrong calls that I have seen by umpires, they would have had a very poor view of the flight of the ball but they were still expected to make the call anyway. Sometimes the ref will correctly over-rule these mistakes but not always. When I umpired club games, I would sometimes take up a position well behind the goal to get a better view of certain shots, particularly for score-able frees in front of the goals.
Gaillimh_Abu (Galway) - Posts: 996 - 20/07/2019 00:13:11
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Replying To Gaillimh_Abu: "I completely agree. For most of the controversial wrong calls that I have seen by umpires, they would have had a very poor view of the flight of the ball but they were still expected to make the call anyway. Sometimes the ref will correctly over-rule these mistakes but not always. When I umpired club games, I would sometimes take up a position well behind the goal to get a better view of certain shots, particularly for score-able frees in front of the goals." Where is that ? Up in the stand like !
catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 20/07/2019 12:16:55
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There's no place for them in the game. Lads who just happen to be mates of a referee get allowed to make the biggest calls in matches. Why umpires haven't been replaced by linesmen I don't know, especially at senior level. One linesman to cover each of the 4 lines enclosing the field. No umpires. It would mean you'd get impartial, qualified people making decisions on goals, points, penalties, 45/65's. Some of the current umpires are so old or out of shape the 65's or 45's are taken and scored before they waddle out to the corner flag to put their hand in the air.
icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2553 - 20/07/2019 12:28:25
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Replying To ballydalane: "There must be technology available where a chip can be inserted into the sliotar, and when the ball dissects the posts (to coin a phrase from Ger Canning), the ref gets a beep or something on his watch indicating a score.
Or we just use a second set of nets for the points.
Might be a problem when the players hit the ball two miles in the sky which they seem to do these days, so if a player hits it too high for the ref's beeper or the points net, tough, it doesn't count." Like an RFID chip in the ball and an RFID scanner to detect where the ball is in relation to the posts. Thousands of student tech projects online. Maybe a few of them might get together to come up with a cheaper alternative.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7359 - 20/07/2019 12:41:11
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