National Forum

Those Peter Harte Black Cards

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To seanie_boy:  "No it wasn't. The black card was approved in March 2013 to be introduced in Jan 2014. The Cavanagh/Mc Manus incident didn't occur until later that year,perhaps August. But the black card was already on the way and had nothing to do with that incident."
Well more is the pity that it wasn't introduced straight away.

MillerX (Meath) - Posts: 1066 - 10/07/2019 00:08:34    2208803

Link

Replying To catch22:  "Not any confusion on my part about what you saying. Your saying every one of 3 cards was incorrect. Now if it was one of them that's fair enough. If it was two that would be stretching it but thee is plain tinfoil hat stuff."
In fairness there's more than a few observers questioning what is going on here. Look at the piece on it on this forum for one. The writer is clearly suggesting that all is not what it seems.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 10/07/2019 01:08:58    2208810

Link

Blocking runs and tripping people are cynical as they are done to stop the opposition building an attack, the black card has reduced this hugely. Fouls can be accidental and thats often where the grey area is

lillyboy (Kildare) - Posts: 429 - 10/07/2019 07:32:07    2208827

Link

Replying To Dellboypolecat:  "100% I agree with you it was brought in for cynical football and none of these where that"
No offense Dell but you keep arguing that none of them were black cards. I was at the Donegal Tyrone game, standing straight in front of the Harte black card and it was definitely a black card. When you stick your leg out to trip someone then that's a black card. Maybe the others were not and I can't comment as I didn't see them, but that one certainly was so I don't see this witch-hunt hysteria that some see.

Donegal_abroad (Donegal) - Posts: 1321 - 10/07/2019 09:14:03    2208855

Link

Replying To Donegal_abroad:  "No offense Dell but you keep arguing that none of them were black cards. I was at the Donegal Tyrone game, standing straight in front of the Harte black card and it was definitely a black card. When you stick your leg out to trip someone then that's a black card. Maybe the others were not and I can't comment as I didn't see them, but that one certainly was so I don't see this witch-hunt hysteria that some see."
Dont think anyone can argue about it being a trip but as the rule stands it has to be a deliberate trip. The way I saw the tackle against donegal was that he planted his foot to shoulder McHugh but mchugh was too quick and tripped over his foot before the shoulder connected.

I generally like the black card but it's the refs application and the current wording that is the issue. I see a lot of muppets bringing up the sean tackle which was after the black card had already been agreed.

But let's get 1 thing clear if you are in an ai final with a few minutes to go and a player is bearing down on goals an opposition player will do everything to stop him scoring. No card what ever the colour will change that. Every fan would scream at their defender if they didn't foul the forward regardless of what they say.

kevin03 (Tyrone) - Posts: 276 - 10/07/2019 09:52:18    2208866

Link

Replying To seanie_boy:  "In fairness there's more than a few observers questioning what is going on here. Look at the piece on it on this forum for one. The writer is clearly suggesting that all is not what it seems."
Look, if a fella gets 3 3 black cards it's easy to start asking questions. It's a great opportunity to start a campaign for " their all out to get me ". Are you convinced all 3 were dodgy ?

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 10/07/2019 09:53:42    2208867

Link

Replying To Dellboypolecat:  "We will see what the appeal body think as I am certain all 3 don't fit the crime"
Peter has a bad habit of leading with his feet & if he wants to stop getting cards then he needs to stop doing it.

The solving of this problem is within his own gift, blaming everyone else is just a cop out.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 10/07/2019 09:55:56    2208869

Link

Replying To tyroneed:  "Certainly the one against Cavan was never a black card.

But another point. How can it be correct to have suspensions for 3 cards when teams don't play an equal number of matches. For example Cork to get to round 4 of the Qualifiers only played 2 matches whereas Tyrone played 5 matches to get to the same stage. You ain't going to pick up 3 black cards if you don't play 3 matches."
This is the only important comment that has been posted on this thread, and nobody has picked up on it.

SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 385 - 10/07/2019 10:07:21    2208880

Link

Replying To SurelyToGod:  "This is the only important comment that has been posted on this thread, and nobody has picked up on it."
I've actually never thought of that, surely it should have been discussed at congress when it was been bought in.

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 2088 - 10/07/2019 10:28:10    2208894

Link

Replying To SurelyToGod:  "This is the only important comment that has been posted on this thread, and nobody has picked up on it."
Fair point but i think the league games are included.

lillyboy (Kildare) - Posts: 429 - 10/07/2019 10:55:08    2208923

Link

I don't believe feel the need to comment on this particular case, but I have serious misgivings about the cumulative black card suspensions in inter-county football, and in the current championship structure it can lead to further inequality between teams.

Black cards accumulate through league and championship campaigns. Say a player, for example Hugh McFadden of Donegal who was captain and ever-present in the league campaign for Donegal, picks up two black cards in the 8 league matches that year. Now, he goes into championship, wins Ulster with Donegal playing 3 matches (potentially 4 if there is a preliminary), and then he plays 3 Quarter Finals which all have equal importance because there's only 1 home game. Semi-Final comes around and he picks up a black card. Hugh McFadden misses the All-Ireland Final. 3 Black Cards in 15/16 matches.

Now say Kerry, who like Donegal, have the luxury of being able to rest players in Spring and only bring some key players in in May/June. If a Kerry player gets black carded in EVERY championship game, and they win their 8X-th Munster Championship, he will not serve a suspension until the 2nd Quarter Final match. He's back playing in the third quarter final, and goes on to pick up a black card in that match, and the following semi-final. He's still eligible for the final, and guess what with Kerry 2 points up and the opponents clear through on goal in the dying seconds, he pulls a Sean Cavanagh on it outside the box, gets a black card with minutes remaining and leaves the opponents with a 20m free facing an impossible shot against a 14man wall in goals.

The black card in itself, does not serve its purpose as it still allows for the Sean Cavanagh pull down without punishing on the scoreboard, we all understand that now.

But the accumulative black/red card rule also doesn't serve its purpose as it suits the teams that can afford to rest players in the league, and those that have shorter runs to get to the All-Ireland series. Technically, a player from Leinster and Ulster could get 4 black card suspensions in one championship campaign. This is impossible for a Kerry/Cork player.

SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 385 - 10/07/2019 11:07:18    2208935

Link

Replying To MuckrossHead:  "Peter has a bad habit of leading with his feet & if he wants to stop getting cards then he needs to stop doing it.

The solving of this problem is within his own gift, blaming everyone else is just a cop out."
Very true. Don't foul, no black card.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1747 - 10/07/2019 11:15:23    2208941

Link

Replying To catch22:  "Look, if a fella gets 3 3 black cards it's easy to start asking questions. It's a great opportunity to start a campaign for " their all out to get me ". Are you convinced all 3 were dodgy ?"
Well if you think about from that perspective,that somethings not right,you need only be convinced that one of the cards were unjustly given. You need to make 3 in a row stick to see the player banned for a game so in this instance I'm saying that the final card against Cavan is most suspect. Why in God's name would a player who's team is heading for a 15/16 point win feel the need to commit such an act in the first place. It makes no sense at all. We have talked on here many times about how players would be more than willing to take one for the team if a game was in the balance approaching the final whistle. This was not the case in 2 of these 3 instances,so it's hard to justify giving them out when looking at it like this.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 10/07/2019 11:52:31    2208963

Link

Replying To seanie_boy:  "Well if you think about from that perspective,that somethings not right,you need only be convinced that one of the cards were unjustly given. You need to make 3 in a row stick to see the player banned for a game so in this instance I'm saying that the final card against Cavan is most suspect. Why in God's name would a player who's team is heading for a 15/16 point win feel the need to commit such an act in the first place. It makes no sense at all. We have talked on here many times about how players would be more than willing to take one for the team if a game was in the balance approaching the final whistle. This was not the case in 2 of these 3 instances,so it's hard to justify giving them out when looking at it like this."
So do you think there's a concerted attempt against Harte to get him banned ?

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 10/07/2019 12:07:50    2208974

Link

Replying To GreenandRed:  "Dell, what defines the difference between a red and black card offence? From the list above 1,2 and 3 may have been red card offences before the black card's introduction? For me a foul is cynical unless it's accidental and if it's accidental it's not a foul. That's my simplistic thoughts on refereeing !"
I'll try to answer if I can. A trip and a kick, for example, are two different things though sometimes a player might be trying to do both and the ref might go with the black instead of a red. However, you can usually tell by the aggressiveness of the leg movement. Aggressive abuse to a matach official might, for example, be when a player shouts very loudly at a MO and/or moves towards him but doesn't use any bad language. Any bad language at the MO is a straight red for me every time. There is no guide for refs on this!!
Accidental may still be a foul. Trips can be accidental but you still have to give a free. A player could be taken out accidentally, still a free. Accidental is never a card.
Most of the BC rules were yellow before the BC came in and as far as I call aggressive remonstration wasn't specifically defined but was treated as dissent - depending on the ref of course!

Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 10/07/2019 12:15:24    2208981

Link

If a team like tyrone consistently pull down players when a move is developing, stamp/knee players after a free is given, tackle feet first,and generally play cynically the accidental argument must go out the window. This all goes back to management style. It should be dealt with even if guilty manager whinges about being singled out for the year.

In this environment the player with the cards is just the guy who was unlucky and got caught

Ashrules (Dublin) - Posts: 518 - 10/07/2019 12:26:45    2208994

Link

Replying To Ashrules:  "If a team like tyrone consistently pull down players when a move is developing, stamp/knee players after a free is given, tackle feet first,and generally play cynically the accidental argument must go out the window. This all goes back to management style. It should be dealt with even if guilty manager whinges about being singled out for the year.

In this environment the player with the cards is just the guy who was unlucky and got caught"
Peter Harte has never been known for dirty play. Has he just started do behave this way the last few games? I think not,in spite of what you think about Tyrone GAA or Mickey Harte this whole thing stinks.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 10/07/2019 12:34:37    2208996

Link

Replying To catch22:  "Look, if a fella gets 3 3 black cards it's easy to start asking questions. It's a great opportunity to start a campaign for " their all out to get me ". Are you convinced all 3 were dodgy ?"
Most of the black cards I see given are dodgy with some very clear ones ignored. It is a very difficult task to know when there is intent. I would like the Refs to come down much harder on a player being slowed down with his run both beside and away from the ball. How did the Ref allow pushing and pulling in middle of park before the start of Mayo/Galway match.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 10/07/2019 12:35:04    2208997

Link

Replying To Ashrules:  "If a team like tyrone consistently pull down players when a move is developing, stamp/knee players after a free is given, tackle feet first,and generally play cynically the accidental argument must go out the window. This all goes back to management style. It should be dealt with even if guilty manager whinges about being singled out for the year.

In this environment the player with the cards is just the guy who was unlucky and got caught"
Dublin are the best at fouling and getting away with, as has been the case with all the best/good teams . Kerry in the 70's were experts -ask Jimmy Barry Murphy

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 10/07/2019 12:39:59    2209003

Link

Replying To catch22:  "So do you think there's a concerted attempt against Harte to get him banned ?"
My guess would be that it's not against Peter Harte personally if that could be believed,but more likely it's intended to be a way to get back at Tyrone GAA and Mickey Harte for being so out spoken against the black card in the first place. It could be that it's all on the back of the last ref in the Cavan game and the others are blameless. He could have seen an opportunity to hit back at Mickey and did it on his own initiative. Everything had been teed up for him at that point. I'd love to know was there much history between them. Regardless of how we got here it seems a bit much for one player to get 3 blacks like just happened with Peter Harte in this way. Something about it all seems to have been manufactured and outside of anything we understand the black card to be used for. Peter isn't now and has never been a dirty/cynical player.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts: 4235 - 10/07/2019 12:44:51    2209008

Link