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Super 8 General Discussion

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So there seems to be a general agreement that Ros, Cork and Meath are not good enough to play in Super 8s. Of course there is a gap between the top 4/5 and the rest but how do teams close that gap? By having ambition and competing against the top teams. Same reason teams want to play in Division 1 in the league. So if these teams, say Ros, Meath, Cork, Cavan, Monaghan, Galway, Armagh etc are excluded from Super 8s because they aren't as strong as the rest, then the gap will never close.

Douglas_44 (Roscommon) - Posts: 190 - 10/07/2019 18:38:35    2209195

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Replying To HighKings:  "So who would you like to replace Cork, Meath, and Roscommon? If you replaced them with Galway, Cavan, and Armagh I think you'd still end up with mismatches. There's a big gulf between the top 5 and the rest."
I think the problem is with teams getting in to the s8's via handy draws (not individual teams and their form on a particular date in time) and ruining the concept by having teams way out of their dept. and not able to compete.
And its very easily solved...
First scrap the reward to provincial winners going straight to super 8's.
Instead they join the 8 teams in rd 4 qualifiers but their reward is that they are seeded, and cant be drawn against div 1 opposition as far as that is possible.
Eg. this year Ros, Kerry, Donegal and Dublin would draw either Cork Meath laois or Clare, (no repeats)
and Cavan Galway Mayo and Tyrone would be an open draw.
This weeds out the poor teams and you have a proper mouth watering super 8.

cuttothebone (Kildare) - Posts: 117 - 10/07/2019 19:44:43    2209216

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There is an argument for seeding qualifier draws based on the league.

For the recent round 4 it would have worked out as;

Bowl 1: Mayo, Tyrone, Galway and Meath.
Bowl 2: Cavan, Clare, Laois and Cork.

Within this seeded draw, they still could have arranged for provincial runners-up not to be drawn against each other.

Galway drew the short straw based on the above and Cork were in luck.

Example Round 4:
Mayo v Cork
Tyrone v Cavan
Galway v Laois
Meath v Clare

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 10/07/2019 20:42:30    2209241

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P.S. Super 8s as a result:
Kerry, Donegal, Galway and Meath.
Croke Park, Roscommon, Tyrone and Mayo.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 10/07/2019 20:45:38    2209242

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Group 1 - Winners: Donegal
Group 1 - Runners Up: Kerry
Group 2 - Winners: Dubs
Group 2 - Runners Up: Tyrone

Semi-Finals: Donegal v Tyrone
Semi-Finals: Dubs v Kerry

Wins for Donegal, Kerry, Tyrone and the Dubs this weekend.

OLLIE (Louth) - Posts: 12224 - 11/07/2019 21:42:43    2209714

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Replying To Douglas_44:  "So there seems to be a general agreement that Ros, Cork and Meath are not good enough to play in Super 8s. Of course there is a gap between the top 4/5 and the rest but how do teams close that gap? By having ambition and competing against the top teams. Same reason teams want to play in Division 1 in the league. So if these teams, say Ros, Meath, Cork, Cavan, Monaghan, Galway, Armagh etc are excluded from Super 8s because they aren't as strong as the rest, then the gap will never close."
A need for more tiers, it seems.

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 11/07/2019 22:59:05    2209748

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I really don't get this piece about the gap between teams. I think we are putting too much stock in it. The fact is, Dublin are the gap. After that it's not that insurmountable. So what I mean is that a team outside that perceived "gap" needs to start from somewhere to close it and you will never know if they have until they play those so called stronger teams.
The simple way of looking at this, if this Dublin team were hypothetically suddenly not around, I don't think you would have half the discussion about a "gap". If you replaced Dublin in the group with a Kildare, Armagh, Cavan or Galway, I think most would not be worried. So the thought of the outstanding Dublin teams is skewing everybody's perception. For example, as bad as Cork are, in recent years they have been very close to knocking out Mayo. That's football and competition. I don't think it's the teams that are in the super 8's that are the problem, it's the super 8's themselves. The format is another safety blanket for the perennial favourites and therefore removes the thrill of the knockout game.

BaldyBadger (Cork) - Posts: 184 - 11/07/2019 23:24:14    2209755

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I expect Meath & Roscommon to be way out of their depth and take some big beatings but Cork are different they can come from nowhere and all of a sudden can compete with anyone!

MONMAD (Monaghan) - Posts: 13 - 12/07/2019 00:56:54    2209769

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Phase 1 predictions:
Donegal to win by 2 points.
The Munster runners-up to win by a point, scoring two goals more than their opponents.
Tyrone to win by a point.
A draw in Killarney.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6261 - 12/07/2019 07:10:44    2209780

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Replying To legendzxix:  "There is an argument for seeding qualifier draws based on the league.

For the recent round 4 it would have worked out as;

Bowl 1: Mayo, Tyrone, Galway and Meath.
Bowl 2: Cavan, Clare, Laois and Cork.

Within this seeded draw, they still could have arranged for provincial runners-up not to be drawn against each other.

Galway drew the short straw based on the above and Cork were in luck.

Example Round 4:
Mayo v Cork
Tyrone v Cavan
Galway v Laois
Meath v Clare"
I don't know about that. I think seeding teams will reduce the chances of two of the stronger teams meeting in the qualifiers and will help ensure the stronger teams progress further. This may benefit the Super 8's but it makes for a more boring championship overall. Every time two stronger teams are drawn against each other in the qualifiers, there's far more a buzz around than if a division 1 side is drawn against a division 3 side etc. The "safety net" of the qualifiers has already removed some of the "fear" of a stronger side going out early (and has probably affected attendances etc.). Seeding the qualifiers would reduce this further. I'd nearly go the opposite way and give a lower division side a home tie if drawn against a team in a division above them (I know this is already somewhat in place) to drum up interest. You could rightly argue that this would nearly incentivise failure but you could also argue that it would increase interest and excitement. I just think your suggestion puts the Super 8's above the overall championship.

Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 530 - 12/07/2019 09:10:17    2209803

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Replying To tiobraid:  "The talk of the gulf between the top 3 or 4 and the rest doesn't make sense to me. Who's the top 3 or 4 outside of Dublin? Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone? Mayo didn't get out of Connacht and haven't won anything since 2015. Donegal are being built up hugely on a few games after an average League. Kerry aren't the force they were and could well be in the future and Tyrone haven't won anything either in a couple of years and struggled past the likes of Longford.
The likes of Cork, Meath and Roscommon should believe they can beat these teams. There is no top 3/4 like a few years ago. There's a top 1 and then the rest."
Your right in the sense that there is a top 1.

However there is a group of 4 ( for me ) teams who are certainly a good bit a head of the rest below, they include Tyrone, Kerry, Donegal, Mayo. Monaghan have peaked and need to rebuild but over the last couple of years they were up at this level as well. Roscommon are getting there but going by their last few quarter final results they need to prove this year they have improved significantly and I think the only game they have a chance of winning is against Cork. Galway are a strange one, but haven't proven anything for me yet.

I group these teams together due to them being consistent performers over the last few years, who are actively involved in the latter stages of the Championship the majority of years and also maintain their position in Division One in the league ( or as Tyrone and Donegal showed when relegated, walk through Division 2 easily ).

You state there is a top 1, you then state Mayo have won nothing since 2015, did they not win the league this year?
And also the reason they have won nothing prior to this is because of the 'top one' you mention.
You can't state there is one team way ahead of everyone else and winning around them and then blame everyone else for not winning anything.

Tyrone the same, consistent in league, plenty of all ireland quarter and semi-finals, and one final. You say they won nothing, well the reason they won nothing is because of the Dublin mainly and a couple of tight tough games against Kerry and Mayo. Tyrone never looked like getting beat by Longford...

Donegal suffered badly without McBrearty last year, but they failed to come out the group with the two finalists, no shame. They were always a tough defence but their forwards look good this year, and Murphy is playing brilliantly with a set role, rather than being moved to were he was needed at any given time in a match, Ulster Champions and well worth being mentioned in this group, and I firmly believe will make a semi final at the expense of Mayo or Kerry.

Kerry were poor last year, but it is more of a re-build, still made league final, and I would not write them off to get out of the group. Beaten in a semi final 2 years ago in a replay. Still consistent over the years.

Put Tyrone, Donegal, Mayo and Kerry in a Super Eight group, nobody could call it. Put any two of them in with any two from Galway, Meath, Cork, Armagh, Kildare, Roscommon i think everyone would expect two of them to come out of it.

There is a top one.
Then there is definitely a group of 4 striving to topple them ( and i think the gap is getting smaller, though very slowly ), can't see them being caught this year.
And then you have Roscommon/Cork/Meath/Galway etc... who I agree with you should believe they can beat these teams, reality is more often than not they don't, and i think the Super eights will show this.

Tyrone/Donegal & Dublin/Mayo semi finals.

Tyrone/Dublin final for me ( little bit of bias maybe.... )

Jab4111 (Tyrone) - Posts: 3 - 12/07/2019 10:41:44    2209849

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hh

Jab4111 (Tyrone) - Posts: 3 - 12/07/2019 10:44:43    2209853

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Donegal & Dublin to win all three games.

Cork will beat Tyrone & Roscommon to go through in second as long as they don't put too much effort into the Dublin game and lose badly. I think they have too much power for Tyrone in Croker.

Big game is Kerry v Mayo in Killarney. Winner of this will play Dubs in semi. Toss of a coin but I think it will be Kerry.

opa01 (Cavan) - Posts: 477 - 12/07/2019 11:03:34    2209866

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Replying To BaldyBadger:  "I really don't get this piece about the gap between teams. I think we are putting too much stock in it. The fact is, Dublin are the gap. After that it's not that insurmountable. So what I mean is that a team outside that perceived "gap" needs to start from somewhere to close it and you will never know if they have until they play those so called stronger teams.
The simple way of looking at this, if this Dublin team were hypothetically suddenly not around, I don't think you would have half the discussion about a "gap". If you replaced Dublin in the group with a Kildare, Armagh, Cavan or Galway, I think most would not be worried. So the thought of the outstanding Dublin teams is skewing everybody's perception. For example, as bad as Cork are, in recent years they have been very close to knocking out Mayo. That's football and competition. I don't think it's the teams that are in the super 8's that are the problem, it's the super 8's themselves. The format is another safety blanket for the perennial favourites and therefore removes the thrill of the knockout game."
Completely agree. Group 2 is effectively one game away from deciding who the top two will be: Cork need to beat Tyrone or it's a fair bet that it's all over bar the crying.

And you're dead right: take Dublin out of the mix and on any given day, there's nothing between the top 5ish teams.

festinog (Galway) - Posts: 2852 - 14/07/2019 03:36:49    2210514

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Replying To festinog:  "Completely agree. Group 2 is effectively one game away from deciding who the top two will be: Cork need to beat Tyrone or it's a fair bet that it's all over bar the crying.

And you're dead right: take Dublin out of the mix and on any given day, there's nothing between the top 5ish teams."
Group will be a dead duck if Donegal best Kerry next week.
Two hammerings today.

There needs to be a week gap between the qualifiers and the super 8

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 789 - 14/07/2019 21:17:35    2211015

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Was noticeable this weekend that the goalkeepers from the teams of the lower divisions struggled at times with kick out strategies. The keeper very often wrongly gets the blame for this. It takes time and experience to develop a good kick out strategy. Donegal have a young keeper but he has an excellent strategy to fall back on

Meath v Mayo could be a throw back to days gone by
Donegal v Kerry, Mayo were poor today and could have got three or four goals, will depend on how Kerry handle Murphy and co
The other group is all too pridictable

mhunicean_abu (Monaghan) - Posts: 766 - 14/07/2019 22:43:28    2211072

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Replying To festinog:  "Completely agree. Group 2 is effectively one game away from deciding who the top two will be: Cork need to beat Tyrone or it's a fair bet that it's all over bar the crying.

And you're dead right: take Dublin out of the mix and on any given day, there's nothing between the top 5ish teams."
Think you are right about that, not much between the likes of Kerry, Tyrone and Donegal but Dublin way ahead. Kerry played great today but not sure they could beat Dublin.

Green_Gold (Donegal) - Posts: 1613 - 14/07/2019 23:07:45    2211087

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "Group will be a dead duck if Donegal best Kerry next week.
Two hammerings today.

There needs to be a week gap between the qualifiers and the super 8"
The week gap was discussed last year, or rather its absence was, and there was some reason to explain it which I don't remember (old age is a curse). But I agree, even a single extra week's break would go a long way to making sure all the teams are at their best. It can hardly be deemed the 'Super 8', if half of the teams are out on their feet before a single ball is thrown in.

festinog (Galway) - Posts: 2852 - 15/07/2019 00:17:49    2211107

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "Group will be a dead duck if Donegal best Kerry next week.
Two hammerings today.

There needs to be a week gap between the qualifiers and the super 8"
The gaps between games has become a joke. It used to be a month between games and now it's gone to the other extreme. If I am right; it's only one week between the last super 8 game and the All ireland Semi final... do these guys who make decisions have any cop-on at all? Respect the semi finalists-give them 2 weeks.

Donegal_abroad (Donegal) - Posts: 840 - 15/07/2019 06:46:19    2211126

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Replying To MONMAD:  "I expect Meath & Roscommon to be way out of their depth and take some big beatings but Cork are different they can come from nowhere and all of a sudden can compete with anyone!"
Wrong

southmeathgael (Meath) - Posts: 690 - 15/07/2019 07:58:46    2211133

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