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6 Team Leinster Championship?

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Replying To perfect10:  "so are you robbing another couple of weeks from the club players for this?
as skillet says,it has worked perfectly and been a great success.
the big question will be if laois stay up next year and one of the other counties are relegated will they just take their medicine like they should?
the unfairness of the system simply cannot be ignored in my view.i dont know how to square the circle but carlow being relegated is ok but waterford having won no game,cant be relegated,is complete crap"
More reason for allowing a 6th team in one province. The top 5 in both remain in their provincial championship. The 6th placed team in the 6 team championship is relegated. The McDonagh winner is promoted to their province.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 08/07/2019 22:27:18    2208229

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Replying To Jack_Goff:  "link

Would this solve the big issue for the Joe Mcdonagh cup teams? There would be an extra match for all teams involved. It might be a bit too soon as the gap is quite big still.

In my opinion the GAA should heavily invest in hurling in Laois, Westmeath, Carlow, Antrim and Offaly with the aim to having 6 teams in Leinster. Maybe announce it will begin in 5 years time and leave the championship as it is for now."
I agree. Leave it as it is for now. The format has proven to be a success in my opinion. You add in another team and I don't think you get the Galway performance from Carlow as their target game could be the Laois game if they were in it. The 1B system (which is now gone) and the Joe Mc has unquestionably improved all those teams. With all due respect to Kerry they arent ready for Munster yet but have good reason to believe they can build towards targeting a Joe Mc win in next few years. The life would be sucked out of them if they got hammerings in Munster. The Joe Mc has brought on teams, not left them behind like a lot of people predicted.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 08/07/2019 22:30:02    2208230

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Replying To perfect10:  "so are you robbing another couple of weeks from the club players for this?
as skillet says,it has worked perfectly and been a great success.
the big question will be if laois stay up next year and one of the other counties are relegated will they just take their medicine like they should?
the unfairness of the system simply cannot be ignored in my view.i dont know how to square the circle but carlow being relegated is ok but waterford having won no game,cant be relegated,is complete crap"
Rubbish. It wouldn't add any extra weekends of matches. A 5 or 6 team championship will have the same number of hurling weekends meaning no change to the club scene.

Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 09/07/2019 05:00:03    2208271

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Replying To perfect10:  "so are you robbing another couple of weeks from the club players for this?
as skillet says,it has worked perfectly and been a great success.
the big question will be if laois stay up next year and one of the other counties are relegated will they just take their medicine like they should?
the unfairness of the system simply cannot be ignored in my view.i dont know how to square the circle but carlow being relegated is ok but waterford having won no game,cant be relegated,is complete crap"
A 6 team round robin wouldnt take any longer than the current 5 team 1 perfect 10?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11849 - 09/07/2019 06:05:28    2208273

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This is the layout of the structure I am suggesting:

MUNSTER
Limerick
Tipperary
Cork
Clare
Waterford

LEINSTER
Wexford
Kilkenny
Dublin
Galway
Laois
Carlow

McDONAGH
Westmeath
Antrim
Kerry
Offaly
Meath
Down

RING
Derry
Roscommon
Wicklow
Kildare
London
Sligo

If Kerry win the McDonagh, Munster will be 6 and Leinster will be 5. The 6th placed team is always relegated. The McDonagh winner is always promoted to their province. Just get on with the game! Lovely hurling! ;)

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 09/07/2019 08:15:36    2208283

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Replying To Viking66:  "All that makes absolute sense. The aim should be to get all the developing counties up to the next standard up from where they are at now. Obviously the key to this is to get playing numbers up in those counties. And a successful county team is 1 of the best ways to achieve that. There are loads of young lads with hurls in there hands pucking a ball around the streets of the village I live in which wasnt the case 5 years ago. And obviously from the point of view of senior county player standards it would obviously help the top players in Laois or Carlow for talks sake to be playing more games against Limerick or Wexford or Cork or Tipp or Kilkenny. And furthur down the pyramid wouldnt it be great for hurling in Down or Meath to see highlights of their senior teams on the Sunday Game playing Offaly or Westmeath in the Joe McDonagh? RTE have to be brought on board too- maybe tell them its a condition of their tv rights package for the AI finals that they have to show highlights of the 2nd tier games?"
That is the aim though and it seems to be working but I don't think rushing into a 6 team Leinster cship too soon is the right call. I'd worry that the two potential weaker teams targets being to win the one game against the other to stay up. It might be an unfair assumption to make though. The Joe Mc requires a team to almost win all their games to win it out where a 6 team Leinster would mean one would prob be enough. I think the current system works for now so I wouldn't be in a major rush to change it. I dont think there was one clear cut game in the Joe Mc Cup this year (prior to each game being played) so I wouldnt dilute that either. Giving it good coverage could be the way to go for now.
However, am I the only one that feels that hurling is getting more exposure in most counties and many have improved because of the league and cship structures in all the lower divisions outside the Liam Mc? Ok, we could always use more TV exposure but not many sports show games outside the top tier. The best solution is to get these games on before big cship games as curtain raisers in my opinion.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 10/07/2019 00:00:08    2208800

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I think everyone is open for a 6 team group but the problem remains why does the relegation have to happen from Leinster? This year for example Waterford were protected from relegation despite being on the receiving end of worse defeats than Carlow who had a better net scoring difference. I'm not for one minute saying Carlow would have beaten Waterford in a playoff but why weren't they given the chance? Hard to think you could have a situation next year where a team like Waterford continue in disarray, lose to a Laois Westmeath or Carlow in the league (get relegated there) lose all championship games yet don't get relegated while all teams in Leinster get a win!

I've always thought one solution would be to rotate the relegation between provinces which would give teams a 2 year cycle when they get promoted. The likes of Waterford would likely then walk the Joe McDonagh but would still be in all Ireland reckoning.

1798man (Wexford) - Posts: 164 - 10/07/2019 11:08:35    2208938

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Just having a 6 team Leinster Championship is nothing more than a token gesture to the likes of Carlow and Laois.

Its great and it should happen but my fear is it will be the usual GAA hq approach, take the easy way out and do nothing more.

The likes of Laois and Carlow have done fantastic work and put in a huge effort and if the GAA were really actually serious about pushing them forward they would take the same approach as they did when deciding to fund the rebirth of Dublin hurling.

Will they though? Like hell they will. It will be the token gesture of haveing a 6 team Leinster championship and thats it.

Mr (although president of the entire association still refers to us as in Dublin when talking about all things GAA) Horan sees no issues, no need for review, keep going and say nothing.

The likes of Laois should be given every resource and opportunity to further improve but they wont be, in fact probably whats on mr Horans mind following last sunday is what to do to help Dublin hurling not lose to the likes of Laois again rather than what to do to help Laois push on, "sure let them have a 6th team, that will keep them quite"

tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1337 - 10/07/2019 11:31:49    2208952

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Replying To 1798man:  "I think everyone is open for a 6 team group but the problem remains why does the relegation have to happen from Leinster? This year for example Waterford were protected from relegation despite being on the receiving end of worse defeats than Carlow who had a better net scoring difference. I'm not for one minute saying Carlow would have beaten Waterford in a playoff but why weren't they given the chance? Hard to think you could have a situation next year where a team like Waterford continue in disarray, lose to a Laois Westmeath or Carlow in the league (get relegated there) lose all championship games yet don't get relegated while all teams in Leinster get a win!

I've always thought one solution would be to rotate the relegation between provinces which would give teams a 2 year cycle when they get promoted. The likes of Waterford would likely then walk the Joe McDonagh but would still be in all Ireland reckoning."
So if Carlow beat Waterford in a playoff what would it mean?

Do kerry get promoted instead of JoeMc winners Laois
Do Laois join Munster
Or do leinster have 6 teams and Munster 4

How can people not get it into their heads that Waterford were not exempt from relegation

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 10/07/2019 11:37:40    2208955

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Replying To 1798man:  "I think everyone is open for a 6 team group but the problem remains why does the relegation have to happen from Leinster? This year for example Waterford were protected from relegation despite being on the receiving end of worse defeats than Carlow who had a better net scoring difference. I'm not for one minute saying Carlow would have beaten Waterford in a playoff but why weren't they given the chance? Hard to think you could have a situation next year where a team like Waterford continue in disarray, lose to a Laois Westmeath or Carlow in the league (get relegated there) lose all championship games yet don't get relegated while all teams in Leinster get a win!

I've always thought one solution would be to rotate the relegation between provinces which would give teams a 2 year cycle when they get promoted. The likes of Waterford would likely then walk the Joe McDonagh but would still be in all Ireland reckoning."
There was a proposal from a club a few years ago where Provincial championships were part of an All Ireland round robin.

The suggestion had 9 teams in the competition, could easily have say 10 -12 teams instead.

The way it worked was that every team played their Provincial championship and would also play all the other teams once to complete the round robin.

After their 8 rounds of games the top teams went through to the All Ireland playoffs.

With 12 teams you could have the best 12 teams regardless of Province playing in the top tier. The unlikely case that Waterford weren't good enough they'd be out of Munster. Galway wouldn't have to play in the Leinster championship for games. They'd be a full part of the All Ireland series.

If the season were to be played from say March to the end of August you'd have 26 weeks to play 11 league rounds and 3 playoff rounds, with time for break weekends and club weekends.

You'd have top 6 qualifying for the All Ireland series.
Bottom relegated and 11th Place playing against the runner up from the tier below.

Just loads of hurling for players and fans but also loads of opportunities for club action in the summer too.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 10/07/2019 11:59:37    2208969

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Why not flip it all on its head lads. Instead of the league, have the provincial championships instead of the league, and then go with 2 x groups of 6, mixed up?
Its exactly the same amount of games.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1732 - 10/07/2019 12:30:36    2208995

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Ok fine Munster teams aren't exempt from relegation it's just reliant on Kerry being the 11th best team. The issue is the default position is relegate Leinster meaning that in theory every team with the exception of Kerry could be better than the worst team in Munster but the Munster team would be protected. Also if Carlow were to win a playoff why not let Laois play in Munster?

The distribution of the top teams between the provinces is the big issue so maintaining provincial championships and creating a fair structure is next to impossible.

1798man (Wexford) - Posts: 164 - 10/07/2019 13:55:43    2209052

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The provincial championships are bringing crowds and generating money. The McDonagh Cup is not bringing crowds nor money. A 6th team in one province is a workable solution.

The McDonagh Cup then needs to establish itself in counties 12 to 17. Laois have shown McDonagh hurling is not the end of the world.

The McDonagh needs to become established that the team dropping out of its provincial championship retains it's crowd while those challenging for a place in the final also become established and attract crowds for what they are trying to achieve.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 10/07/2019 14:10:11    2209059

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The provincial championships are bringing crowds and generating money. The McDonagh Cup is not bringing crowds nor money. A 6th team in one province is a workable solution.

The McDonagh Cup then needs to establish itself in counties 12 to 17. Laois have shown McDonagh hurling is not the end of the world.

The McDonagh needs to become established that the team dropping out of its provincial championship retains it's crowd while those challenging for a place in the final also become established and attract crowds for what they are trying to achieve."
Your solution is definitely a good solution. It's not a bad halfway house.

I still feel it would be better if there were mixed groups though.

Provincial championships used for seeding a 2 by 6 All Ireland.

Or as I stated above.

Get rid of the league. Replace both it a championship group stage with a single round robin of the top 12 teams.

This idea of the league as a developmental tournament does seem a bit dumb to me. Just get teams playing meaningful games.

I really think every year the championship games added like Kilkenny v Cork, Tipperary v Galway, Waterford v Dublin would really bring in the crowd.

Also expected attendance brought in by counties shouldn't really factor into whether there should be a more fair championship.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 10/07/2019 14:38:47    2209068

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Replying To 1798man:  "Ok fine Munster teams aren't exempt from relegation it's just reliant on Kerry being the 11th best team. The issue is the default position is relegate Leinster meaning that in theory every team with the exception of Kerry could be better than the worst team in Munster but the Munster team would be protected. Also if Carlow were to win a playoff why not let Laois play in Munster?

The distribution of the top teams between the provinces is the big issue so maintaining provincial championships and creating a fair structure is next to impossible."
Everyone has jumped on Waterfords bad form but forget that they were in an AI final 2 years ago.

Truth is all 5 Munster teams have been in finals in the last 10yrs with 3 different winners.
Leinster have had 2 teams (hopefully 3 after this year) with both picking up wins.

So until the likes of Laois and Carlow start making AI finals or even Leinster finals lets not be getting ahead of ourselves putting Waterford in the same bracket as them.

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 10/07/2019 14:44:00    2209070

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One swallow doesn't make a summer. Waterford have gotten to league finals etc.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 10/07/2019 14:51:04    2209075

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Replying To Breezy:  "Everyone has jumped on Waterfords bad form but forget that they were in an AI final 2 years ago.

Truth is all 5 Munster teams have been in finals in the last 10yrs with 3 different winners.
Leinster have had 2 teams (hopefully 3 after this year) with both picking up wins.

So until the likes of Laois and Carlow start making AI finals or even Leinster finals lets not be getting ahead of ourselves putting Waterford in the same bracket as them."
All 5 Munster teams have been in the final since 2013 actually...which never crossed my mind until you said it. Amazing considering the number of appearances KK and to a lesser extent Cork and Tipp had in the years prior to that. Fantastic times for hurling. I hope it doesn't happen for obvious reasons but if Wexford were to get there this year you'd have 8 counties with an All Ireland final appearance in 7 years and Dublin came so close also in 2013. I doubt that has ever been seen before....

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 10/07/2019 16:14:15    2209118

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Replying To tiobraid:  "All 5 Munster teams have been in the final since 2013 actually...which never crossed my mind until you said it. Amazing considering the number of appearances KK and to a lesser extent Cork and Tipp had in the years prior to that. Fantastic times for hurling. I hope it doesn't happen for obvious reasons but if Wexford were to get there this year you'd have 8 counties with an All Ireland final appearance in 7 years and Dublin came so close also in 2013. I doubt that has ever been seen before...."
89 to 96 there was 9 teams and interestingly doesnt include waterford.

And of the 9 only Galway, Antrim and famously Limerick failed to take Liam home. Theres also a legend that Loughnane ordered the Clare bus to enter the county from the north so that Liam wouldnt even pass into Limerick county lines

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 10/07/2019 17:01:38    2209145

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I doubt there will be any change until Kilkenny, Galway, Dublin or Wexford get relegated. Then it will happen and very quickly

Ej (Wexford) - Posts: 355 - 10/07/2019 20:14:16    2209232

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Replying To Ej:  "I doubt there will be any change until Kilkenny, Galway, Dublin or Wexford get relegated. Then it will happen and very quickly"
Carlow, Laois, Westmeath, Antrim, Kerry, Meath, Offaly and Down should work together to bring a motion for congress. These counties have to lobby for change and take more control of the situation. They did well to ensure that the McDonagh finalists got home preliminary round games.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7844 - 10/07/2019 20:23:51    2209237

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