National Forum

Changes In The Provincials.

(Oldest Posts First)

This is my solution to the current All Ireland structure:

Leinster:
There would be eight teams in Leinster. I will use the eight teams that reached the Leinster quarter-finals this year: There are the Dubs, Meath, Kildare, Laois, Louth, Carlow, Westmeath and Longford. The rest in Leinster Wexford, Wicklow and Offaly would be put into an All Ireland group section (I will get to this later). There would be two groups in Leinster of four teams. Each team plays each other once so every team has three matches. Each team would play a match at home, a match away and at a neutral venue. The top two go through to the semi-finals with winner of group 1 v runner up group 2 and the winner of group 2 v runner up in group 1. The two semi-final winners would meet in the Leinster final.

Ulster:
There would be eight teams in Ulster. I will use the eight teams that reached the Ulster quarter-finals this year: There are Cavan, Monaghan, Down, Armagh, Fermanagh, Donegal, Antrim and Tyrone. The only county left Derry would be put into an All Ireland group section (I will get to this later). There would be two groups in Ulster of four teams. Each team plays each other once so every team has three matches. Each team would play a match at home, a match away and at a neutral venue. The top two go through to the semi-finals with winner of group 1 v runner up group 2 and the winner of group 2 v runner up in group 1. The two semi-final winners would meet in the Ulster final.

Connacht:
There would be four teams in Connacht. I will use the four teams that reached the Connacht semi-finals this year: There are Mayo, Roscommon, Sligo and Galway. London and Leitrim would be put into an All Ireland group section (I will get to this later). There would be one group in Connacht of four teams. Each team plays each other once so every team has three matches. Each team would play a match at home, a match away and at a neutral venue. The top two go through to the Connacht final.

Munster:
There would be four teams in Munster. I will use the four teams that reached the Munster semi-finals this year: There are Kerry, Cork, Limerick and Clare. Tipp and Waterford would be put into an All Ireland group section (I will get to this later). There would be one group in Munster of four teams. Each team plays each other once so every team has three matches. Each team would play a match at home, a match away and at a neutral venue. The top two go through to the Munster final.

All Ireland Group section:
There would be eight teams in this section: They are Wexford, Wicklow, Offaly, Derry, London, Leitrim, Tipp and Waterford. There would be two groups in this section of four teams. Each team plays each other once so every team has three matches. Each team would play a match at home, a match away and at a neutral venue. The top two in each group would qualify for the qualifiers (I will get to this later).

So now we have eight groups of four with two in Leinster, two in Ulster, one in Munster, one in Connacht and two in the All Ireland Group section.

In the qualifiers round one, the top two from both groups in the All Ireland section would be in one hat and they would be drawn against the beaten Leinster and Ulster semi-finalist.

In the qualifiers round two, the four round one winners would play against the beaten Leinster, Ulster, Connacht and Munster finalists.

The quarter-finals would see the four round two winners playing against the Leinster, Ulster, Connacht and Munster winners.

Teams in the All Ireland Group section would only spend one year away from their province. For example Wexford, Wicklow and Offaly would play in Leinster the following year and would be replaced by the two teams that finish bottom in the Leinster groups plus a relegation play-off loser between the two teams that finished third. Likewise Derry would play in Ulster the following year and would be replaced by the loser of a play-off between the bottom teams in the Ulster groups. London and Leitrim would be replaced the following year by the two counties who failed to make the Connacht final (Could be one of Galway, Mayo or Roscommon) and Tipp and Waterford would be replaced the following year by the two counties that fail to make the Munster final.

Every county is guaranteed at least 3 matches and there is something to play for in each group.

OLLIE (Louth) - Posts: 12110 - 25/06/2019 21:38:46    2200925

Link

Great post OLLIE.

gaelicgab (USA) - Posts: 809 - 26/06/2019 15:44:50    2201309

Link

Replying To gaelicgab:  "Great post OLLIE."
Cheers Gaelicgab.

OLLIE (Louth) - Posts: 12110 - 26/06/2019 18:46:01    2201399

Link

This is really good. I thought up someting similar but this is better

I would make a few changes though
2 Lein + 2 Ulster group winners to AI QF and play prov final
Conn top 2 play prov final with winner going to QF same for munster
2 mixed group winners play off for a cup and both qualify for next round similar to McDonagh
6 prov group second place to qualifers joined with mixed group winners till 2 remain and join QF
then straight knock out

promotion is 1 per province so playoff between bottom 2 for Lein + Ulster and bottom for Conn and Munster
promoted is best performer in B cup from each province

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 295 - 26/06/2019 22:18:21    2201498

Link

Replying To OLLIE:  "Cheers Gaelicgab."
Think this has definite potential

Al_Maguire (Donegal) - Posts: 183 - 26/06/2019 22:21:50    2201499

Link

Ollie, I normally agree with your posts, but this one reflects the general trend in GAA to make the Championship as confusing as possible so that it becomes more like an algebra test; if team A beats team B, but team B beat team C, and team C has yet to play team A, where does this leave team E?

Nope, sorry, not interested. Those permutations might appeal to the purists, but it is only going to scare away everyone else who will need a crash course in quantum theory to figure out where each team sits.

festinog (Galway) - Posts: 2749 - 27/06/2019 05:01:40    2201551

Link

It's a well thought out idea, Ollie, but the one gripe I have is the one major reason why the provincials are being maintained at all - that MOST counties would see this as their only realistic chance of silverware (obviously Leinster is currently a cakewalk for Dublin, and Munster not much better), but taking Derry for example out of the Ulster championship for a year just wouldn't fly. Players would head to the states for the summer or just take the summer off IMO.

I posted a proposal on another thread last week, which I think with some tweaks, gives all teams something closer to what they want:

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________




I'm always interested in new championship proposals but have been reluctant to propose anything as it's not easy to maintain the provincials (which last Sunday showed is a must), while being fair to all counties and giving the weaker counties meaningful games.

I think hurling has shown us the way, to a degree, and I've also come to the conclusion that you can't give weaker counties meaningful games unless you add a 2nd tier - which some simply will never go for.

So I think the below is about as good as I can manage:



Provinces remain split, but London enter Ulster Championship. NY don't play the same province each year (I'll come to them later).


Ulster: 10 teams, 2 groups of 5, top team in each group make the Ulster final. Runner up in each group enters Q2

Leinster: Same as Ulster but with 6 teams in one group. So again 2 teams enter Q2 leaving 4 seeded teams there

Connaught: 1 group of 5 teams, top 2 play Connaught Final

Munster: 1 group of 6 teams, top 2 play Munster Final


We've now played 6 league groups and established Provincial finalists


4 provincial winners enter the All Ireland Quarter Finals
4 Provincial runners-up enter Q3


The 3rd place team in each of the 6 groups enters and open draw in Q1
Anyone who finished lower than 3rd is now eliminated from the championship (having played a minimum of 4 games).

Q1: 6 teams, 3 winners advance to Q2. New York now enter the championship.

Q2: NY and 3 Q1 winners drawn against the 4 teams who have qualified for Q2 via their groups, 4 winners advance

Q3: 4 Q2 winners play the provincial runners-up, 4 winners advance to All Ireland quarter finals.

The All-Ireland series reverts to the old system of straight knockout.



I think the above satisfies a lot of the criteria that causes an imbalance under current structures;
- all teams get a guaranteed 4 games, some are guaranteed 5
- provincials are maintained
- if the appetite is there for a 2nd tier, there are 14 teams who finish below 3rd in their groups who could now enter this
- New York aren't confined to just the one province
- the Super 8s are gone, and the intensity of matches increases as the summer goes on, no safety net from 1/4 final on

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 3620 - 27/06/2019 09:41:29    2201584

Link

Replying To Breezy:  "This is really good. I thought up someting similar but this is better

I would make a few changes though
2 Lein + 2 Ulster group winners to AI QF and play prov final
Conn top 2 play prov final with winner going to QF same for munster
2 mixed group winners play off for a cup and both qualify for next round similar to McDonagh
6 prov group second place to qualifers joined with mixed group winners till 2 remain and join QF
then straight knock out

promotion is 1 per province so playoff between bottom 2 for Lein + Ulster and bottom for Conn and Munster
promoted is best performer in B cup from each province"
Not bad Breezy.

OLLIE (Louth) - Posts: 12110 - 27/06/2019 18:37:41    2201820

Link

Replying To Al_Maguire:  "Think this has definite potential"
Cheers Al_Maguire.

OLLIE (Louth) - Posts: 12110 - 27/06/2019 18:38:11    2201822

Link

Replying To festinog:  "Ollie, I normally agree with your posts, but this one reflects the general trend in GAA to make the Championship as confusing as possible so that it becomes more like an algebra test; if team A beats team B, but team B beat team C, and team C has yet to play team A, where does this leave team E?

Nope, sorry, not interested. Those permutations might appeal to the purists, but it is only going to scare away everyone else who will need a crash course in quantum theory to figure out where each team sits."
Festinog no probs at all. Different strokes for different fokes.

OLLIE (Louth) - Posts: 12110 - 27/06/2019 18:39:18    2201823

Link

Replying To cavanman47:  "It's a well thought out idea, Ollie, but the one gripe I have is the one major reason why the provincials are being maintained at all - that MOST counties would see this as their only realistic chance of silverware (obviously Leinster is currently a cakewalk for Dublin, and Munster not much better), but taking Derry for example out of the Ulster championship for a year just wouldn't fly. Players would head to the states for the summer or just take the summer off IMO.

I posted a proposal on another thread last week, which I think with some tweaks, gives all teams something closer to what they want:

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________




I'm always interested in new championship proposals but have been reluctant to propose anything as it's not easy to maintain the provincials (which last Sunday showed is a must), while being fair to all counties and giving the weaker counties meaningful games.

I think hurling has shown us the way, to a degree, and I've also come to the conclusion that you can't give weaker counties meaningful games unless you add a 2nd tier - which some simply will never go for.

So I think the below is about as good as I can manage:



Provinces remain split, but London enter Ulster Championship. NY don't play the same province each year (I'll come to them later).


Ulster: 10 teams, 2 groups of 5, top team in each group make the Ulster final. Runner up in each group enters Q2

Leinster: Same as Ulster but with 6 teams in one group. So again 2 teams enter Q2 leaving 4 seeded teams there

Connaught: 1 group of 5 teams, top 2 play Connaught Final

Munster: 1 group of 6 teams, top 2 play Munster Final


We've now played 6 league groups and established Provincial finalists


4 provincial winners enter the All Ireland Quarter Finals
4 Provincial runners-up enter Q3


The 3rd place team in each of the 6 groups enters and open draw in Q1
Anyone who finished lower than 3rd is now eliminated from the championship (having played a minimum of 4 games).

Q1: 6 teams, 3 winners advance to Q2. New York now enter the championship.

Q2: NY and 3 Q1 winners drawn against the 4 teams who have qualified for Q2 via their groups, 4 winners advance

Q3: 4 Q2 winners play the provincial runners-up, 4 winners advance to All Ireland quarter finals.

The All-Ireland series reverts to the old system of straight knockout.



I think the above satisfies a lot of the criteria that causes an imbalance under current structures;
- all teams get a guaranteed 4 games, some are guaranteed 5
- provincials are maintained
- if the appetite is there for a 2nd tier, there are 14 teams who finish below 3rd in their groups who could now enter this
- New York aren't confined to just the one province
- the Super 8s are gone, and the intensity of matches increases as the summer goes on, no safety net from 1/4 final on"
For example if Derry were in a group with London, Offaly and Leitrim, these are three counties that Derry have never played in the Championship so you would get the novality factor especially if Derry were playing away to London. If Derry came out of that group, they would only have to win two matches in the qualifiers to get to the quarter-finals.

OLLIE (Louth) - Posts: 12110 - 27/06/2019 18:48:48    2201824

Link

I'd see merit in a variant of Ollie's suggestion that takes some influence from the hurling championship.

1 group of 4 in both Connaught and Munster.
2 groups of 4 in both Leinster and Ulster.
2 groups of 4 in Championship 2.

Championship 2 winners after semi-finals and final promoted to their province in the following year.

All-Ireland series:
Q1 - 3rd placed provincial teams. (6 to 3)
Q2 - Leinster and Ulster semi-finalists drawn against Q1 winners and Championship 2 winner. (8 to 4)
Q3 - 4 provincial runners-up drawn against Q2 winners. (8 to 4)

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6233 - 27/06/2019 20:46:48    2201875

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "I'd see merit in a variant of Ollie's suggestion that takes some influence from the hurling championship.

1 group of 4 in both Connaught and Munster.
2 groups of 4 in both Leinster and Ulster.
2 groups of 4 in Championship 2.

Championship 2 winners after semi-finals and final promoted to their province in the following year.

All-Ireland series:
Q1 - 3rd placed provincial teams. (6 to 3)
Q2 - Leinster and Ulster semi-finalists drawn against Q1 winners and Championship 2 winner. (8 to 4)
Q3 - 4 provincial runners-up drawn against Q2 winners. (8 to 4)"
Not bad Legend.

OLLIE (Louth) - Posts: 12110 - 28/06/2019 09:53:44    2202007

Link