National Forum

Should Leinster And Ulster Losing Semi-Finalists Enter The All-Ireland Series At A Later Stage?

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Replying To Breezy:  "
Replying To cavanman47:  "I'm always interested in new championship proposals but have been reluctant to propose anything as it's not easy to maintain the provincials (which last Sunday showed is a must), while being fair to all counties and giving the weaker counties meaningful games.

I think hurling has shown us the way, to a degree, and I've also come to the conclusion that you can't give weaker counties meaningful games unless you add a 2nd tier - which some simply will never go for.

So I think the below is about as good as I can manage:



Provinces remain split, but London enter Ulster Championship. NY don't play the same province each year (I'll come to them later).


Ulster: 10 teams, 2 groups of 5, top team in each group make the Ulster final. Runner up in each group enters Q2

Leinster: Same as Ulster but with 6 teams in one group. So again 2 teams enter Q2 leaving 4 seeded teams there

Connaught: 1 group of 5 teams, top 2 play Connaught Final

Munster: 1 group of 6 teams, top 2 play Munster Final


We've now played 6 league groups and established Provincial finalists


4 provincial winners enter the All Ireland Quarter Finals
4 Provincial runners-up enter Q3


The 3rd place team in each of the 6 groups enters and open draw in Q1
Anyone who finished lower than 3rd is now eliminated from the championship (having played a minimum of 4 games).

Q1: 6 teams, 3 winners advance to Q2. New York now enter the championship.

Q2: NY and 3 Q1 winners drawn against the 4 teams who have qualified for Q2 via their groups, 4 winners advance

Q3: 4 Q2 winners play the provincial runners-up, 4 winners advance to All Ireland quarter finals.

The All-Ireland series reverts to the old system of straight knockout.



I think the above satisfies a lot of the criteria that causes an imbalance under current structures;
- all teams get a guaranteed 4 games, some are guaranteed 5
- provincials are maintained
- if the appetite is there for a 2nd tier, there are 14 teams who finish below 3rd in their groups who could now enter this
- New York aren't confined to just the one province
- the Super 8s are gone, and the intensity of matches increases as the summer goes on, no safety net from 1/4 final on"
I really think this is the way to go.
It keeps the prov champs for traditionalists and gives every team a number of games.
It has done wonders for the hurling champs so far"
The hurling championship round robin is no provincial round robin, it's made up of the most competitive provincial championship and the rest with weak teams excluded with a back door entry into the All Ireland for the excluded teams.

If football was to operate similarly you would trim the Ulster Championship to 6 teams and put the top 12 ranked teams from the other 3 championships.
That would give you:
Ulster:
Tyrone, Armagh, Cavan, Monaghan, Donegal, Fermanagh in Ulster
Open Draw from other groups produces the following:
Group A: Mayo, Roscommon, Meath, Cork, Dublin, Tipp
Group B: Galway, Kerry, Clare, Laois, Kildare, Westmeath

Top 2 from each group play provincial finals - winners progress to All Ireland Q finals

Provincial losers play next best 4 from groups - playing off down to 2 teams for all Ireland Q finals

The non provincial lower 16 would be in 4 groups of 4 -producing a B champ winner plus 2 teams for all Ireland Q finals

Play off knockout all Ireland from Q finals onwards

The top 2 in the B enter provincials the following year relegating the worst performing team in the groups.

This would be in line with the Hurling championships but their is no chance the 16 counties left out would allow this happen.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 753 - 23/06/2019 20:57:49    2199374

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Interesting that your average qualifier match is way More Interesting than your average
Munster or Leinster championship match ... 2 provinces are competitive two are a joke ... but you can't tweak as counties rise and fall in quality ... we need an overhaul but Croke Park remain blinkered... I still favour Jim McGuiness model that links the league in to championship !

KeshGFC (Fermanagh) - Posts: 161 - 25/06/2019 22:15:43    2200957

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They should but wouldn't it be a nightmare for fixtures? I know it's harder on the ulster teams in particular but how could you operate this?

Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2615 - 25/06/2019 22:26:14    2200968

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With the prospect of a Tier 2 Championship in some form, Leinster and Ulster counties need to use it as an opportunity for some balance in the provincial structure.

> Provincial Round 2 in Connaught and Munster = semi-finals.
> Provincial Round 2 in Leinster and Ulster = quarter-finals.

+ Provincial Round 2 winners should be guaranteed a place in the qualifiers.
+ The 8 lowest places league teams not getting beyond Provincial Round 2 should enter Tier 2. The Tier 2 winner should be guaranteed a qualifier spot in the following year.

Q1 - 16 teams not making the provincial final. (8/24 will be in Tier 2)
Q2 - Q1 winners.
Q3 - Provincial runners-up v Q2 winners.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 5961 - 30/06/2019 14:43:13    2202894

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Replying To KeshGFC:  "Interesting that your average qualifier match is way More Interesting than your average
Munster or Leinster championship match ... 2 provinces are competitive two are a joke ... but you can't tweak as counties rise and fall in quality ... we need an overhaul but Croke Park remain blinkered... I still favour Jim McGuiness model that links the league in to championship !"
Come to think of it - based on the Tier 1 & 2 proposal made public this weekend - we have something closer to the SeanK plan (like JimMc's) -

SeanK = Prov F 8 + Prior T2 Final 2 + High NFL 6.
JimMcG = Prov F 4 + Prior T2 Final 1 + High NFL 11.

Actual June 2019 = Prov F 8 + T2 F 1 + High NFL 7, with the addition of a back door.

For Tier 2 - 2 ideas are proposed -
Proposal A - 16 teams (or less) - 4 KO Rds (simple).
Proposal B - 16 teams (exact) - all play 2 initial games - after which 8 teams with 1 win play in Rd 3, 4 with 2 wins to QFs and 4 with 0 wins are out (this is a double-sized Old C Ring format).

Proposal B takes 6 rds, compared to A with 4.
B could be streamlined to 5.
Rd 2 could be 1st of 4 KO rds - with 8 Rd 1 winners v 8 Rd 1 losers.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1541 - 30/06/2019 17:00:27    2202981

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Replying To legendzxix:  "With the prospect of a Tier 2 Championship in some form, Leinster and Ulster counties need to use it as an opportunity for some balance in the provincial structure.

> Provincial Round 2 in Connaught and Munster = semi-finals.
> Provincial Round 2 in Leinster and Ulster = quarter-finals.

+ Provincial Round 2 winners should be guaranteed a place in the qualifiers.
+ The 8 lowest places league teams not getting beyond Provincial Round 2 should enter Tier 2. The Tier 2 winner should be guaranteed a qualifier spot in the following year.

Q1 - 16 teams not making the provincial final. (8/24 will be in Tier 2)
Q2 - Q1 winners.
Q3 - Provincial runners-up v Q2 winners."
I think having a very close to even split is important to the success of a tiered championship system.

Having a small top tier is elitist, a valid criticism of the super 8 system.

Having a small tier 2 is exclusionary. The second tier isn't something worth winning. It's a competition for the dregs. This was the failing of the Tommy Murphy cup. It wasn't a valuable competition with just the worst teams in it. To even be in the competition was a indication of failure, where's the prestige to be found in that.

You have 16 teams in an All Ireland second tier you are going to have some good teams in there. It's something worth winning.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2505 - 30/06/2019 19:00:13    2203056

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think having a very close to even split is important to the success of a tiered championship system.

Having a small top tier is elitist, a valid criticism of the super 8 system.

Having a small tier 2 is exclusionary. The second tier isn't something worth winning. It's a competition for the dregs. This was the failing of the Tommy Murphy cup. It wasn't a valuable competition with just the worst teams in it. To even be in the competition was a indication of failure, where's the prestige to be found in that.

You have 16 teams in an All Ireland second tier you are going to have some good teams in there. It's something worth winning."
If Division 3 teams vote it in, that's fair enough. If the Tier 2 is 16 teams, it might only be a matter of time before they settle on the Top 16 being a group stage.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 5961 - 30/06/2019 19:19:07    2203069

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Replying To legendzxix:  "With the prospect of a Tier 2 Championship in some form, Leinster and Ulster counties need to use it as an opportunity for some balance in the provincial structure.

> Provincial Round 2 in Connaught and Munster = semi-finals.
> Provincial Round 2 in Leinster and Ulster = quarter-finals.

+ Provincial Round 2 winners should be guaranteed a place in the qualifiers.
+ The 8 lowest places league teams not getting beyond Provincial Round 2 should enter Tier 2. The Tier 2 winner should be guaranteed a qualifier spot in the following year.

Q1 - 16 teams not making the provincial final. (8/24 will be in Tier 2)
Q2 - Q1 winners.
Q3 - Provincial runners-up v Q2 winners."
To use your Prov Rd 2 idea - there was a time when I used that logic Rd 2 has 24, with back door (BD) 8; Rd 3 has 12 with BD 16; Rd 4 has 6 (Lein & Uls Finals & Munsv Conn Chap Playoff) with BD 14; Rd 5 has 3 Champ byes to QFs with BD 10 (5 winners to QFs.
As I recall, you didnt like MunsConn playing for 1 QF slot - but it follows your logic.

Anyway, overall Iprefer a proper Tier 2 instead like now under discussion. I'd prefer if they limited the Lein, Muns & Conn Championships as well.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1541 - 01/07/2019 02:36:08    2203216

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