|
Replying To cavanman47: "I'm always interested in new championship proposals but have been reluctant to propose anything as it's not easy to maintain the provincials (which last Sunday showed is a must), while being fair to all counties and giving the weaker counties meaningful games.
I think hurling has shown us the way, to a degree, and I've also come to the conclusion that you can't give weaker counties meaningful games unless you add a 2nd tier - which some simply will never go for.
So I think the below is about as good as I can manage:
Provinces remain split, but London enter Ulster Championship. NY don't play the same province each year (I'll come to them later).
Ulster: 10 teams, 2 groups of 5, top team in each group make the Ulster final. Runner up in each group enters Q2
Leinster: Same as Ulster but with 6 teams in one group. So again 2 teams enter Q2 leaving 4 seeded teams there
Connaught: 1 group of 5 teams, top 2 play Connaught Final
Munster: 1 group of 6 teams, top 2 play Munster Final
We've now played 6 league groups and established Provincial finalists
4 provincial winners enter the All Ireland Quarter Finals
4 Provincial runners-up enter Q3
The 3rd place team in each of the 6 groups enters and open draw in Q1
Anyone who finished lower than 3rd is now eliminated from the championship (having played a minimum of 4 games).
Q1: 6 teams, 3 winners advance to Q2. New York now enter the championship.
Q2: NY and 3 Q1 winners drawn against the 4 teams who have qualified for Q2 via their groups, 4 winners advance
Q3: 4 Q2 winners play the provincial runners-up, 4 winners advance to All Ireland quarter finals.
The All-Ireland series reverts to the old system of straight knockout.
I think the above satisfies a lot of the criteria that causes an imbalance under current structures;
- all teams get a guaranteed 4 games, some are guaranteed 5
- provincials are maintained
- if the appetite is there for a 2nd tier, there are 14 teams who finish below 3rd in their groups who could now enter this
- New York aren't confined to just the one province
- the Super 8s are gone, and the intensity of matches increases as the summer goes on, no safety net from 1/4 final on" I really think this is the way to go.
It keeps the prov champs for traditionalists and gives every team a number of games.
It has done wonders for the hurling champs so far
Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 21/06/2019 08:13:09
2198201
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Breezy: " Replying To cavanman47: "I'm always interested in new championship proposals but have been reluctant to propose anything as it's not easy to maintain the provincials (which last Sunday showed is a must), while being fair to all counties and giving the weaker counties meaningful games.
I think hurling has shown us the way, to a degree, and I've also come to the conclusion that you can't give weaker counties meaningful games unless you add a 2nd tier - which some simply will never go for.
So I think the below is about as good as I can manage:
Provinces remain split, but London enter Ulster Championship. NY don't play the same province each year (I'll come to them later).
Ulster: 10 teams, 2 groups of 5, top team in each group make the Ulster final. Runner up in each group enters Q2
Leinster: Same as Ulster but with 6 teams in one group. So again 2 teams enter Q2 leaving 4 seeded teams there
Connaught: 1 group of 5 teams, top 2 play Connaught Final
Munster: 1 group of 6 teams, top 2 play Munster Final
We've now played 6 league groups and established Provincial finalists
4 provincial winners enter the All Ireland Quarter Finals
4 Provincial runners-up enter Q3
The 3rd place team in each of the 6 groups enters and open draw in Q1
Anyone who finished lower than 3rd is now eliminated from the championship (having played a minimum of 4 games).
Q1: 6 teams, 3 winners advance to Q2. New York now enter the championship.
Q2: NY and 3 Q1 winners drawn against the 4 teams who have qualified for Q2 via their groups, 4 winners advance
Q3: 4 Q2 winners play the provincial runners-up, 4 winners advance to All Ireland quarter finals.
The All-Ireland series reverts to the old system of straight knockout.
I think the above satisfies a lot of the criteria that causes an imbalance under current structures;
- all teams get a guaranteed 4 games, some are guaranteed 5
- provincials are maintained
- if the appetite is there for a 2nd tier, there are 14 teams who finish below 3rd in their groups who could now enter this
- New York aren't confined to just the one province
- the Super 8s are gone, and the intensity of matches increases as the summer goes on, no safety net from 1/4 final on" I really think this is the way to go. It keeps the prov champs for traditionalists and gives every team a number of games. It has done wonders for the hurling champs so far"
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5012 - 21/06/2019 10:20:48
2198235
Link
0
|
|
Replying To cavanman47: " Replying To Breezy: "[quote=cavanman47: "I'm always interested in new championship proposals but have been reluctant to propose anything as it's not easy to maintain the provincials (which last Sunday showed is a must), while being fair to all counties and giving the weaker counties meaningful games.
I think hurling has shown us the way, to a degree, and I've also come to the conclusion that you can't give weaker counties meaningful games unless you add a 2nd tier - which some simply will never go for.
So I think the below is about as good as I can manage:
Provinces remain split, but London enter Ulster Championship. NY don't play the same province each year (I'll come to them later).
Ulster: 10 teams, 2 groups of 5, top team in each group make the Ulster final. Runner up in each group enters Q2
Leinster: Same as Ulster but with 6 teams in one group. So again 2 teams enter Q2 leaving 4 seeded teams there
Connaught: 1 group of 5 teams, top 2 play Connaught Final
Munster: 1 group of 6 teams, top 2 play Munster Final
We've now played 6 league groups and established Provincial finalists
4 provincial winners enter the All Ireland Quarter Finals
4 Provincial runners-up enter Q3
The 3rd place team in each of the 6 groups enters and open draw in Q1
Anyone who finished lower than 3rd is now eliminated from the championship (having played a minimum of 4 games).
Q1: 6 teams, 3 winners advance to Q2. New York now enter the championship.
Q2: NY and 3 Q1 winners drawn against the 4 teams who have qualified for Q2 via their groups, 4 winners advance
Q3: 4 Q2 winners play the provincial runners-up, 4 winners advance to All Ireland quarter finals.
The All-Ireland series reverts to the old system of straight knockout.
I think the above satisfies a lot of the criteria that causes an imbalance under current structures;
- all teams get a guaranteed 4 games, some are guaranteed 5
- provincials are maintained
- if the appetite is there for a 2nd tier, there are 14 teams who finish below 3rd in their groups who could now enter this
- New York aren't confined to just the one province
- the Super 8s are gone, and the intensity of matches increases as the summer goes on, no safety net from 1/4 final on" I really think this is the way to go. It keeps the prov champs for traditionalists and gives every team a number of games. It has done wonders for the hurling champs so far"
It doesn't solve the problem with the difference in quality between and within Provinces.
Dublin are still going to walk through Leinster just with E extra drubbings along their way.
Kerry will take Munster to the cleaners.
Hurling only works because teams are at a similar enough level.
I don't think there's an appetite for simply more games. I think there's an appetite for more contests.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4212 - 21/06/2019 13:10:32
2198282
Link
6
|
|
Replying To cavanman47: "I'm always interested in new championship proposals but have been reluctant to propose anything as it's not easy to maintain the provincials (which last Sunday showed is a must), while being fair to all counties and giving the weaker counties meaningful games.
I think hurling has shown us the way, to a degree, and I've also come to the conclusion that you can't give weaker counties meaningful games unless you add a 2nd tier - which some simply will never go for.
So I think the below is about as good as I can manage:
Provinces remain split, but London enter Ulster Championship. NY don't play the same province each year (I'll come to them later).
Ulster: 10 teams, 2 groups of 5, top team in each group make the Ulster final. Runner up in each group enters Q2
Leinster: Same as Ulster but with 6 teams in one group. So again 2 teams enter Q2 leaving 4 seeded teams there
Connaught: 1 group of 5 teams, top 2 play Connaught Final
Munster: 1 group of 6 teams, top 2 play Munster Final
We've now played 6 league groups and established Provincial finalists
4 provincial winners enter the All Ireland Quarter Finals
4 Provincial runners-up enter Q3
The 3rd place team in each of the 6 groups enters and open draw in Q1
Anyone who finished lower than 3rd is now eliminated from the championship (having played a minimum of 4 games).
Q1: 6 teams, 3 winners advance to Q2. New York now enter the championship.
Q2: NY and 3 Q1 winners drawn against the 4 teams who have qualified for Q2 via their groups, 4 winners advance
Q3: 4 Q2 winners play the provincial runners-up, 4 winners advance to All Ireland quarter finals.
The All-Ireland series reverts to the old system of straight knockout.
I think the above satisfies a lot of the criteria that causes an imbalance under current structures;
- all teams get a guaranteed 4 games, some are guaranteed 5
- provincials are maintained
- if the appetite is there for a 2nd tier, there are 14 teams who finish below 3rd in their groups who could now enter this
- New York aren't confined to just the one province
- the Super 8s are gone, and the intensity of matches increases as the summer goes on, no safety net from 1/4 final on" This is as sensible a solution as you will find.
Fair play to you, and best of luck for Sunday from across the ditch.
Knoxboya (Monaghan) - Posts: 357 - 21/06/2019 15:14:54
2198319
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: " Replying To cavanman47: "[quote=Breezy: "[quote=cavanman47: "I'm always interested in new championship proposals but have been reluctant to propose anything as it's not easy to maintain the provincials (which last Sunday showed is a must), while being fair to all counties and giving the weaker counties meaningful games.
I think hurling has shown us the way, to a degree, and I've also come to the conclusion that you can't give weaker counties meaningful games unless you add a 2nd tier - which some simply will never go for.
So I think the below is about as good as I can manage:
Provinces remain split, but London enter Ulster Championship. NY don't play the same province each year (I'll come to them later).
Ulster: 10 teams, 2 groups of 5, top team in each group make the Ulster final. Runner up in each group enters Q2
Leinster: Same as Ulster but with 6 teams in one group. So again 2 teams enter Q2 leaving 4 seeded teams there
Connaught: 1 group of 5 teams, top 2 play Connaught Final
Munster: 1 group of 6 teams, top 2 play Munster Final
We've now played 6 league groups and established Provincial finalists
4 provincial winners enter the All Ireland Quarter Finals
4 Provincial runners-up enter Q3
The 3rd place team in each of the 6 groups enters and open draw in Q1
Anyone who finished lower than 3rd is now eliminated from the championship (having played a minimum of 4 games).
Q1: 6 teams, 3 winners advance to Q2. New York now enter the championship.
Q2: NY and 3 Q1 winners drawn against the 4 teams who have qualified for Q2 via their groups, 4 winners advance
Q3: 4 Q2 winners play the provincial runners-up, 4 winners advance to All Ireland quarter finals.
The All-Ireland series reverts to the old system of straight knockout.
I think the above satisfies a lot of the criteria that causes an imbalance under current structures;
- all teams get a guaranteed 4 games, some are guaranteed 5
- provincials are maintained
- if the appetite is there for a 2nd tier, there are 14 teams who finish below 3rd in their groups who could now enter this
- New York aren't confined to just the one province
- the Super 8s are gone, and the intensity of matches increases as the summer goes on, no safety net from 1/4 final on" I really think this is the way to go. It keeps the prov champs for traditionalists and gives every team a number of games. It has done wonders for the hurling champs so far"
It doesn't solve the problem with the difference in quality between and within Provinces.
Dublin are still going to walk through Leinster just with E extra drubbings along their way.
Kerry will take Munster to the cleaners.
Hurling only works because teams are at a similar enough level.
I don't think there's an appetite for simply more games. I think there's an appetite for more contests."]No system is going to make bad teams good. But this system gives structured fixtures which is good for fans players and clubs. I do believe hurling attendances are up partly cause people can plan for the games I myself live in London and often work weekends so having a master fixture list from early in the year is wonderful for me and i assume its the same for fans who work shifts and families too.
To make a more competitive Sam I looked at the idea a while of a 4 team group Munster 4 Connaught 3 x 3=6 Ulster and 3 x 3 Leinster with all the rest in a B compitition with mixed groups and knockout. 2 finalists go up and replace 2 worst from their provence.
Dublin Kerry and the other top few will most likely always be this way no matter what the system. Just like no system will ever create a Gibralter team that can beat Brazil or a Portugal team that can win the RWC. Money is the only answer and even then its not enough if You aint got the players.
Also how do fans of the counties involved feel about Super 8s? I find having a group in the middle of knockouts to be an absolute bore and would get rid but I have not experienced them as a fan
Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 21/06/2019 16:08:17
2198336
Link
0
|
|
All-Ireland Championship - Provincial Stage;
Round 1 - Munster and Connaught quarter-finals. Leinster and Ulster preliminary round.
Round 2 - Munster and Connaught semi-finals. Leinster and Ulster quarter-finals.
12 Provincial Round 2 winners qualify for the All-Ireland series group stage of 4 groups of 4.
All-Ireland Championship Play-offs;
Quarter-finals (Q1) - 8 Provincial Round 1 losers.
Semi-finals (Q2) - 12 Provincial Round 2 losers and 4 Play-off quarter-final winners.
Finals (Q3) - 8 Play-off semi-final winners. 4 Play-off final winners qualify for the 4 groups of 4 All-Ireland round robin series.
All-Ireland group stage detail:
- Provincial winners top seeds in Bowl A.
- Teams 5 to 8 based on ranking of previous year's championship and the current year's league in Bowl B.
- Teams 9 to 12 based on ranking of previous year's championship and the current year's league in Bowl C.
- Teams 13 to 16 based on ranking of previous year's championship and the current year's league in Bowl D.
+ Provincial winners given 2 home games against teams from Bowls B and C.
+ Provincial runners-up can be in Bowls B, C or D depending on their ranking,
+ Provincial runners-up also given 2 home games.
* If provincial runners-up are in Bowls B or C, they will play a provincial winner away and the other two teams at home.
* If provincial runners-up are in Bowl D, they will play provincial champions and a team from Bowl B at home.
Lower Tier Discussion
> A Second Championship for those not making the All-Ireland series is optional with many formats possible depending on what's agreeable for all.
> I would like to see the 16 teams outside the All-Ireland be split into two championships:
Championship play-off: 8 Q2 losers play a playoff round.
Championship 1:
- 4 Q3 losers and 4 Championship play-off winners into quarter-finals. Semi-finals and a final as expected.
Championship 2:
- New York to take on a Q1 loser in a preliminary round. As there are 4 Q1 losers, they could deem that a team can only travel to New York once in a 4 year cycle.
- 4 Championship play-off losers and 3 Q1 losers into quarter-finals. Semi-finals and a final as expected.
+ The Championship play-offs can be played on the same weekend as Q3.
+ The quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals of the two championships can be played on the three weekends of the All-Ireland group stage.
+ The Championship finals can be played in Croke Park.
+ The Championship performances can be used in the seedings for the provincial championship draws for the following year.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7838 - 21/06/2019 20:49:53
2198413
Link
0
|
|
Omahant has inspired me to do a few sums on Cavanman47's suggestions. By my calculations, assuming all matches are 50/50, the odds against each county are as follows. I am a long time out of school and am always open to correction.
Connacht 24/1
Munster 29/1
New York 31/1
Ulster 35/1
Leinster Five 35/1
Leinster Six 42/1
tommy58 (Dublin) - Posts: 169 - 21/06/2019 20:56:50
2198414
Link
0
|
|
@ Breezy
I'd agree with you completely on the Super 8s. The qualifiers are also bad as a result of the difficulty in scheduling fixtures.
No system is going to make bad teams good but I think you want to have a more league based championship where all the top teams are playing 1 another and lower level teams are playing to compete at a higher level.
I don't see want the system detailed does for say Leitrim, Waterford or Antrim.
I just think the Provincials have to move to the start of the season with a league based championship in the summer.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4212 - 21/06/2019 21:06:18
2198419
Link
6
|
|
Replying To tommy58: "Omahant has inspired me to do a few sums on Cavanman47's suggestions. By my calculations, assuming all matches are 50/50, the odds against each county are as follows. I am a long time out of school and am always open to correction.
Connacht 24/1
Munster 29/1
New York 31/1
Ulster 35/1
Leinster Five 35/1
Leinster Six 42/1" For all the praise of the 'neat structure' of Cavanman - your odds exploit its structural unfairness (reverse discrimination against Muns/Conn, unlike Wham's).
Note - your odds are per team - Connacht as a whole (or Muns as a whole) is approx 20% (actual 13/64 > 13/65, or 20%), so 5 x 24/1 = 5x4%=20%, or 6x 29/1 = 6x3.33%=20%) - but Uls/Lein each has > 28%.
Connacht has Champ, RU, 3rd = 1/8+1/16+1/64=13/64=.203125
Muns has Champ, RU, 3rd =
1/8+1/16+1/64=13/64=.203125
New York needs wins from Rd 2=1/32=.03125
Uls has Champ, RU, 2x2nds, 2x3rds =
1/8+1/16+2/32+2/64=18/64=.28125
Lein has Champ, RU, 2x2nds, 2x3rds =
1/8+1/16+2/32+2/64=18/64=.28125
Omahant has inspired me to do a few sums on Cavanman47's suggestions. By my calculations, assuming all matches are 50/50, the odds against each county are as follows. I am a long time out of school and am always open to correction.
Connacht 24/1 = .04
Munster 29/1 = .0333333
New York 31/1= .03125
Ulster 35/1 = .027777
Leinster Five 35/1 = .027777
Leinster Six 42/1 = .023256
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2578 - 22/06/2019 04:23:53
2198475
Link
0
|
|
Actually, looking at this on a per team basis (like you show it) makes more sense - NY has the fair value of 1/32 or 31/1 - so actually, Uls/Lein are the ones still drawing the short straw.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2578 - 22/06/2019 04:41:19
2198477
Link
0
|
|
If the provincial structure is remaining, there is an argument for a provincial group stage alright.
I am more in favour of 4 groups of 4 at the Final 16 stage.
The provincial championships should be like trying to qualify for the Premier Competition (e.g. UEFA Champions League) and those not qualifying entering a Second Championship (e.g. UEFA Europa League).
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7838 - 22/06/2019 09:28:06
2198503
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: "@ Breezy
I'd agree with you completely on the Super 8s. The qualifiers are also bad as a result of the difficulty in scheduling fixtures.
No system is going to make bad teams good but I think you want to have a more league based championship where all the top teams are playing 1 another and lower level teams are playing to compete at a higher level.
I don't see want the system detailed does for say Leitrim, Waterford or Antrim.
I just think the Provincials have to move to the start of the season with a league based championship in the summer." Funny You mentioned Wford and Antrim as I believe monetary investment and forward planning a bit of will and good management from the C. board are much more important than any championship structure.
And both those counties look to be really getting it wrong in both codes and in infrastructure.
Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 22/06/2019 12:33:20
2198543
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Breezy: "Funny You mentioned Wford and Antrim as I believe monetary investment and forward planning a bit of will and good management from the C. board are much more important than any championship structure.
And both those counties look to be really getting it wrong in both codes and in infrastructure." Yeah I don't disagree that Antrim county board have struggled over the years. For long term sustained improvement the structures do have to be improved from within.
In the meantime though I think there are still improvements that can be made to offer more for current players. I do think the next iteration of the senior championship needs to have its primary competition be a league based competition with grades where players are getting a proper schedule of games and can have goals to move up their level. For most teams the league now is the best judge of where they are at in the pecking order and what managers can be getting judged on. Those games are in February and March and you're seeing preseason games stretch back into December to prepare for those competitions. Moving them out to the summer with designated club weekends between county matches seems like the summer obvious solution for me to fix the fixtures. I think that works best with a league based primary competition.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4212 - 22/06/2019 15:59:32
2198591
Link
6
|
|
Hey guys - off topic - with such Leitrim joy today for winning a Tier 5 AI SHC - shouldn't we allow football minnows such happiness too ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2578 - 22/06/2019 20:19:54
2198670
Link
0
|
|
Replying To KildareKelly: "Galway beat London & Sligo and then lost to Roscommon.
Kildare beat Wicklow & Longford and then lost to Dublin.
Galway now have to win 1 game to get to the Super 8s while Kildare would have to win 3.
Honestly, you would sound like a madman trying to explain how the All Ireland SFC championship works to someone who didn't know anything about the GAA." Yes but Galway had to beat Mayo 3 yrs running in the province 2016 to 2018. It just so happens this was the first time in yrs the route was much more straight forward.
kiloughter (Galway) - Posts: 1946 - 22/06/2019 21:18:46
2198701
Link
0
|
|
Nonsense argument. The provincials should be stand alone competitions before a 16 team AISFC A and B. As long as the provincials are used to decide your entry into the AI series, then the current system is the best of an imperfect lot. The ones hardest done by are Ulster. They usually have between 6 and 8 teams in the top 2 divisions and usually draw each other early, knocking out a strong contender. The fact that Leinster deserve a place because of their numbers, when in this years league, they had only 3 teams in the top 2 divisions doesn't wash with me.
galwaydublin (Galway) - Posts: 226 - 23/06/2019 10:08:27
2198858
Link
0
|
|
Replying To kiloughter: "Yes but Galway had to beat Mayo 3 yrs running in the province 2016 to 2018. It just so happens this was the first time in yrs the route was much more straight forward." You're coming back to me as if I was having a go at Galway in particular rather than the system.
In 2018, Roscommon played one match in Connacht before the final & beat Leitrim. That was enough to get them within one game of the Super 8s. It's madness.
KildareKelly (Kildare) - Posts: 593 - 23/06/2019 10:54:27
2198882
Link
0
|
|
Replying To galwaydublin: "Nonsense argument. The provincials should be stand alone competitions before a 16 team AISFC A and B. As long as the provincials are used to decide your entry into the AI series, then the current system is the best of an imperfect lot. The ones hardest done by are Ulster. They usually have between 6 and 8 teams in the top 2 divisions and usually draw each other early, knocking out a strong contender. The fact that Leinster deserve a place because of their numbers, when in this years league, they had only 3 teams in the top 2 divisions doesn't wash with me." That's a fair point.
I have thought that a system where league and Provincial championship decided where a team joins the All Ireland would make sense.
There would be 3 rounds before the quarterfinals eliminating 8 teams each time.
Round 1 would feature the 8 lowest ranked teams not reaching a Provincial final.
This season it would have meant the division 3 and 4 teams but with Laois instead of Cork since Cork reaches the Munster final.
Round 2 would be round 1 winners joined by the 8 lowest ranked non Provincial champions. Assuming Dublin and Donegal win later, this would look like:
Cork, Westmeath, Clare, Armagh, Kildare, Fermanagh, Cavan, Meath (Basically next season's division 1 with Cork replacing Laois and Meath dropping in because Roscommon won Connacht)
Round 3 would be Provincial champions plus next 4 from League.
Dublin, Kerry, Donegal, Roscommon, Mayo, Tyrone, Galway, Monaghan
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4212 - 23/06/2019 12:28:29
2198910
Link
6
|
|
In terms of how the competitions are scheduled 2020 would look as follows:
Sunday 2nd February AI club semifinals
Sunday 16th February AI club finals
1st March NFL1
8th March NFL2
15th March Break
22nd March NFL3
29th March NFL4
5th April Ulster and Leinster Preliminaries
12th April Club 1
19th April Break
26th April NFL5
3rd May Provincial Quarterfinals
10th May Club 2
17th May Break
24th May NFL 6
31st May Provincial Semifinals
7th June Club 3
14th June Break
21st June NFL7
28th June Provincial finals, AI Round 1
5th July Break
12th July AI Round 2
19th July AI Round 3
26th July Break
2nd August AI quarterfinals
9th August AI semifinals
16th August Break
23rd August AI final
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4212 - 23/06/2019 13:39:22
2198939
Link
6
|
|
Replying To KildareKelly: "You're coming back to me as if I was having a go at Galway in particular rather than the system.
In 2018, Roscommon played one match in Connacht before the final & beat Leitrim. That was enough to get them within one game of the Super 8s. It's madness." Not having a go at all. But unless they rid of the provincial structure not a whole lot that can be done that IMO would be fair.
kiloughter (Galway) - Posts: 1946 - 23/06/2019 14:05:28
2198957
Link
0
|