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Replying To Joxer: "How many times have Kerry, Donegal, Mayo, Tyrone footballs played in Croke Park? How many times have Wexford, Waterford, Cork played in Nowlan Park. C'mon I''m sure you'll spot the difference!" Good grief give it up. Its not even a discussion.
Lets take last year...Dublin played 11 competitive games in Croke Park. Taking Tyrone as an example, as they went the distance in the championship, they played played there 3 times. (1 Super 8, a semi final and final)
Of the other semi finalists...Galway and Monaghan also played in CP three times in the year (both teams having played there during the league, 1 super 8 and a semi final).
Spot the difference indeed. Perhaps if the league games were actually played at 'home' all the time it might matter.
Gator (Monaghan) - Posts: 238 - 14/06/2019 13:32:42
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Replying To Mobot: "I don't disagree with most of what you're saying there to be honest. Dublin play where they're told and I'm not having a go at Dublin at all. Rather than tell you what games I'd move Dublin out of Croke Park, I'll tell you what games they should play there. Dublin and any team in Leinster for that matter should only be allowed to play in Croke Park for League finals, Leinster finals, 1 game of the super 8's (while in place), an all ireland semi final and all ireland final.
The experience of going to Croke park for a big game should be something to look forward to. Truth is Dublin play so often there now that even their supporters see it as a normal home game. The GAA, Leinster Council and other Leinster teams are to blame for this. Teams gave up home advantage to play Dublin in Croke park in the Leinster championship in years gone by. Say Dublin played in Ulster, could you see any of the counties giving up home advantage? As for accommodating the fans, what would create a better atmosphere during a home league game, a packed out Parnell Park and buzz that goes with it trying to get your ticket or somewhere between 14-25k in Croke park when you can hear players calling for the ball? Same goes for the super 8's.
I think Croke Park has lost it's mystic anyways as things are. It's used too often. I don't even think that any team should be allowed to use it for the super 8's." Trust me there's is no bigger supporter of moving all Dublin's home games to the Neller than me. I love the place but I'm also a season ticket holder so we have to be realistic and say that it's too small. Build a 30K stadium for Dublin, give them preference for tickets for home games there and everyone's a winner - except those counties who will not reach a LSFC final and so will miss out on Croker but like you say, it should be a reward. Of course the Dubs have only played there once this year in the championship so perhaps that one game should have been in Parnell. Hardly a massive change but it may keep some people happy.
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 14/06/2019 13:34:31
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Replying To SallinsMan: "The only advantages that any of the counties you list above are natural advantages. Population, geographic location and tradition. They cannot be helped. Unless we go down the road of splitting Dublin (which I disagree with) and amalgamating smaller counties, this can never be addressed.
Meath do however have to travel to Carlow and vice verse. Same with Cork and Clare. They play each other home and away ever time they play. Mayo and Leitrim the same. None of them play the vast majority of their games at home either.
None of the counties you mention suffer from the a funding gap the scale of which Dublin enjoy over the rest of the country.
And that, unfortunately is the key. The financial doping that Dublin received directly from the GAA was completely out of wack with the rest of the country.
There is a very strong argument to say that for a level playing field to exist between Carlow and Meath or Leitrim and Mayo, the GAA should actually be financially doping the smaller counties. The weaker counties. The counties with little or no tradition. They are the counties that need state of the art facilities and lots of professional coaches. They are the counties that need a financial support to overcome their brand deficiencies.
As I said, Dublin enjoy every advantage there is to be got in football." What is "every advantage"? You say population is natural so presumably we ignore that. You say that Dublin play the "vast majority" of their games at home. Utter nonsense. So far this year we have played half of our league games away and half of our championship games away. You mention "financial doping" but surely population size dictates funds allocation plus number of clubs, schools etc. Have you made any allowance for this and how much money would it take to turn Kildare into a 4 in a row team? Nice centre of excellence shaping up there by the way in Hawkfield.
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 14/06/2019 13:44:05
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Replying To TheUsername: "I would have very little respect for his quality of analysis or impartiality and would question a self serving agenda as a journalist, with Dublin just being an ironically a money making vehicle for him. But were he is useful as i think he bring up aspects of GAA finance that have never previously been discussed, however incompetently and i do think hes low brow. I've seen better analysis and arguments on here.
One core issue i think it raises is transparency, the GAA are very poor at explaining why GDF in particular is allocated the way it is therefore you get threads like this. I think it also raises the question, of how transparent counties need to be as well, everyone knows how much say Dublin get in sponsorship, but no one could tell you what Kerry or Kerry Group get as an example.
Equally looking at the broader model is fascinating there is a clear spectrum, of commercial funding made up of sponsorship, fundraising and other bitsof revenue contribuuting to counties, that counties can raise away from communal funding.
I would acknowledge Dublin are at the top of that and cash in massively on their profile and market, those funds go into the senior teams and i doubt it doesnt help our success and being at the cutting edge of everything really etc. Some may say that is advantage
But i suspect we are not in isolation could there be an argument that Mayo are "financially doped" from that particular aspect of funding and creates an advantage that has enabled them to compete at the top tier for the last decade while other counties have regressed. Has it been down to talent or their ability to fund raise. Dont get me wrong Mayo arent breaking any rules and i say fair play really. But they have outspent Dublin some years on their senior teams. I think if you are going to apply an argument to one you have to apply it fairly to all.
Its interesting that Mayo and Dublin have ascended and other counties have regressed this decade and that has coincided with a progression in raising commercial revenue. 10/15 years ago neither Dublin or Mayo would have been confident of beating say Kerry or Tyrone, these days we both do it regularly and a loss would be a disappointment. See below figures on commerical revenue:
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/dublin-reign-supreme-but-where-does-your-county-rank-on-the-2018-gaa-rich-list-36922874.html
Not that either are breaking the rules, both are cashing in on their profiles, but i suppose the bigger question is does it enable both counties to be better then other counties and any other county team. Is it nature or nurture or perhaps the best balance between both. Im working of the assumption that like Dublin, Mayo commercial revenue fund their senior team.
I suppose im just making the point, that away from the GDF and looking at commercial revenue there is likely a spectrum of have and have nots on a sliding scale. How much that contributes to senior success on the feild is debatable. But i would suspect its likely more then the likes of the GDF you see trotted out, that should be going to schools etc." I have to point out your mistake here (again!) Username.
The Mayo commercial revenue is a little over 1/3 of what Dublin have. Mayo are getting their money by more 'parochial' means. That's a problem in itself.
If you're gonna repost that article you really should be genuine in the point. The funding Mayo are using is largely unsustainable. Dublin can shake down blue chip companies for large sponsorship with ease. Its no coincidence that Cork have the second largest commercial revenue either for largely the same reasons.
Gator (Monaghan) - Posts: 238 - 14/06/2019 13:46:04
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Replying To Gator: "I have to point out your mistake here (again!) Username.
The Mayo commercial revenue is a little over 1/3 of what Dublin have. Mayo are getting their money by more 'parochial' means. That's a problem in itself.
If you're gonna repost that article you really should be genuine in the point. The funding Mayo are using is largely unsustainable. Dublin can shake down blue chip companies for large sponsorship with ease. Its no coincidence that Cork have the second largest commercial revenue either for largely the same reasons." Oh without question a chara, there is a distinction to be made on the method between sponsorship and fundraising. I do mention it and that distinction in some of my post here.
I also agree, Dublins commercial approach is more certain then say Mayo as well as a business plan Mayo are shaky ground.
I do however feel there is narrative on here that suggests that fundraising is ok but sponsorship is somehow bad, the "we have to do it ourselves" thing, im sure it takes more then a bit of work for AIG to be parted from figures of north of 5 mill. Both these methods yield commercial income, and the premise of cashing in on their profile is the same. Images are conjured of lads with a tin outside the church when really county boards have a very corporate strategy and dedicated teams in event management etc. its a professional business these days, many of the events are blue chip in themselves in the likes of the Plaza in New York etc and the cost of attendance in the multiple ks, not just to pick on Mayo but Kerry and other counties have done similar.
im not sure how sustainable the Mayo model is, ive really only ever seen commercial figures for the last few years and they seem relatively consistent and the team spends tend to be north of a million every season.
I would wholly agree its very shaky ground as a model and would prefer to be in Dublin shoes then Mayo, in terms of guaranteed income.
I was reflecting a bit on the 16 years we went with out an All Ireland recently with Leinster games coming and going. It was almost like a journey or an odyssey to reach the promised land and every year held a drama, desperation and anticipation that created drama and interest, that very often led to hype and huge support in Dublin, that has tailed off now after winning 6 this decade. its reflected in the attendances and absolutely zero hype or pressure (so far) in the five in a row. My concern for Mayo would be if they do get over the line and even win a few, would the same thing happen for them. I think it probably would in all honesty. thus i could see their current financial model tapering off. so yes i agree its built on shaky ground or more shaky then our own.
But i suppose my general point is away from Dublin, when it comes to commercial revenue their are many counties with natural advantages and more ability then others to drive commercial revenue, their are haves and have nots along a spectrum and that is going to create an uneven playing field, with or without Dublin, we just happen to be at the appex admittedly.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 14/06/2019 14:29:46
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Replying To Gator: "I have to point out your mistake here (again!) Username.
The Mayo commercial revenue is a little over 1/3 of what Dublin have. Mayo are getting their money by more 'parochial' means. That's a problem in itself.
If you're gonna repost that article you really should be genuine in the point. The funding Mayo are using is largely unsustainable. Dublin can shake down blue chip companies for large sponsorship with ease. Its no coincidence that Cork have the second largest commercial revenue either for largely the same reasons." Sorry i just read that part of your post again - how do you make it 1/3, are you separating fundraising from sponsorship?
Yes mayo would have about a third of Dublins sponsorship and make up the remainder in fundraising, the total in commercial income.
Are we getting lost in semantics and frames here?
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 14/06/2019 14:34:59
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Replying To Joxer: "Trust me there's is no bigger supporter of moving all Dublin's home games to the Neller than me. I love the place but I'm also a season ticket holder so we have to be realistic and say that it's too small. Build a 30K stadium for Dublin, give them preference for tickets for home games there and everyone's a winner - except those counties who will not reach a LSFC final and so will miss out on Croker but like you say, it should be a reward. Of course the Dubs have only played there once this year in the championship so perhaps that one game should have been in Parnell. Hardly a massive change but it may keep some people happy." You're not Varadkar are you with you're very popular but totally wasteful schemes?!!! Why waste so much money on a new stadium to hold 30K that'll rarely be used and Croke Park lying idle. If ye build such a stadium use it to ground share with a rugby club, League of Ireland club, athletics, and for other facilities at least. Too many stadiums in Ireland only half used as they are, shocking waste.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7345 - 14/06/2019 14:36:27
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Replying To Joxer: "What is "every advantage"? You say population is natural so presumably we ignore that. You say that Dublin play the "vast majority" of their games at home. Utter nonsense. So far this year we have played half of our league games away and half of our championship games away. You mention "financial doping" but surely population size dictates funds allocation plus number of clubs, schools etc. Have you made any allowance for this and how much money would it take to turn Kildare into a 4 in a row team? Nice centre of excellence shaping up there by the way in Hawkfield." Joxer, stick your head back into the sand if you truly believe that Dublin don't play the vast majority of their championship games at home.
It has also been proven so many times that Dublin also got far more per head of capita for player development, than any other county in Ireland. Sean Kelly uses it as a badge of honour.
I'm not looking at this from a Kildare point of view at all. This is bigger than my, or any other individual county for that matter. Kildare tried to keep pace with the Dublin senior team for a while and went almost bankrupt for it.
I'm not sure I follow your Hawkfield analogy. The one thing I know is that every club in the county has paid yearly levies to build it. Much like clubs and supporters will foot the bill to rebuild St. Conleths Park to make it championship standard. Nearly every county in Ireland has the same capital funding model.
How much did Dublin's center of excellence or stadium cost them? Oh wait!!
SallinsMan (Kildare) - Posts: 77 - 14/06/2019 16:25:31
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Replying To brisbane: "The AFL have 18 teams are based across five states of Australia 9 of which are located in the Melbourne metropolitan area.
Look at soccer in england as of the 2018-19 season, there are 11 teams playing in professional leagues in London, 6 play in the Premier League and 5 in the Football League.
In the GAA there is 1 team in dublin" Glasgow, Liverpool, Manchester and Edinburgh all have two teams. And they create so much hype in those cities due to the intense derbies.
Gator: "Good grief give it up. Its not even a discussion. Lets take last year...Dublin played 11 competitive games in Croke Park. Taking Tyrone as an example, as they went the distance in the championship, they played played there 3 times. (1 Super 8, a semi final and final) Of the other semi finalists...Galway and Monaghan also played in CP three times in the year (both teams having played there during the league, 1 super 8 and a semi final). Spot the difference indeed. Perhaps if the league games were actually played at 'home' all the time it might matter."
The fact so few Dubs even acknowledge the big home advantage issue over the last 15 years tells it's own tail. There's no hope for them.
Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 14/06/2019 17:59:53
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Hard to know where it will be in 10 years but i fear for the game. We could go back and forward on this forever but two things strike from reading this 1/ fundraising is people giving money without expecting a financial reward but sponsorship from the likes of AIG is based on them making a return.
2/ if as some people suggest the future is a return to clubs contesting the AI with say 16 teams in div 1 and 2 how many would be Dublin clubs?
lillyboy (Kildare) - Posts: 429 - 14/06/2019 18:54:35
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Replying To GreenandRed: "You're not Varadkar are you with you're very popular but totally wasteful schemes?!!! Why waste so much money on a new stadium to hold 30K that'll rarely be used and Croke Park lying idle. If ye build such a stadium use it to ground share with a rugby club, League of Ireland club, athletics, and for other facilities at least. Too many stadiums in Ireland only half used as they are, shocking waste." Yeah I know pal. Don't build it and the whingers will complain about Croke Park. Build it and the whingers will complain about a waste of money. Bit like Galway fans complaining about the Neller and having to stand. Other fans complaining that Dubs get to stand at Croker and get the cheap tickets.
#Dubscantwin
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 14/06/2019 19:46:14
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Replying To SallinsMan: "Joxer, stick your head back into the sand if you truly believe that Dublin don't play the vast majority of their championship games at home.
It has also been proven so many times that Dublin also got far more per head of capita for player development, than any other county in Ireland. Sean Kelly uses it as a badge of honour.
I'm not looking at this from a Kildare point of view at all. This is bigger than my, or any other individual county for that matter. Kildare tried to keep pace with the Dublin senior team for a while and went almost bankrupt for it.
I'm not sure I follow your Hawkfield analogy. The one thing I know is that every club in the county has paid yearly levies to build it. Much like clubs and supporters will foot the bill to rebuild St. Conleths Park to make it championship standard. Nearly every county in Ireland has the same capital funding model.
How much did Dublin's center of excellence or stadium cost them? Oh wait!!" What centre of excellence? What stadium? Dubs want to play at the Neller, our home. Trust me. Put your self in our shoes for a minute. Home league games in a quarter full freezing stadium with no atmosphere v a tightly packed Neller with the fans breathing on opposition players' necks. Now think about this. Which would Dublin fans prefer? Which would opposition players prefer?
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 14/06/2019 19:52:15
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Replying To lillyboy: "Hard to know where it will be in 10 years but i fear for the game. We could go back and forward on this forever but two things strike from reading this 1/ fundraising is people giving money without expecting a financial reward but sponsorship from the likes of AIG is based on them making a return.
2/ if as some people suggest the future is a return to clubs contesting the AI with say 16 teams in div 1 and 2 how many would be Dublin clubs?" I know this is radical but could the "demise" of the game be down to systems introduced around 2011, Donegal duvet v Dublin for example, that just happened to coincide with Dublin's emergence? Mass defence has been a blight on the game since Kernan, McGuinness and Harte perfected it. Make no mistake, Dublin implemented various degrees of it since 2014 and that Donegal lesson but in general this park the bus tactic has destroyed the game and then planted the seed that anything other than this tactic couldn't be used to compete with the Jacks. Thankfully Mayo proved the opposite. But that blight on the game has to be addressed. Teams 8 points down and still defending en-masse hoping to hand pass their way to overcome a near double-digit deficit. Not gonna happen against real teams. Continuous rule tweaking or change in coaching culture required. Former so far but no real improvement.
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 14/06/2019 20:02:02
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Replying To Jack_Goff: "Glasgow, Liverpool, Manchester and Edinburgh all have two teams. And they create so much hype in those cities due to the intense derbies.
Gator: "Good grief give it up. Its not even a discussion. Lets take last year...Dublin played 11 competitive games in Croke Park. Taking Tyrone as an example, as they went the distance in the championship, they played played there 3 times. (1 Super 8, a semi final and final) Of the other semi finalists...Galway and Monaghan also played in CP three times in the year (both teams having played there during the league, 1 super 8 and a semi final). Spot the difference indeed. Perhaps if the league games were actually played at 'home' all the time it might matter."
The fact so few Dubs even acknowledge the big home advantage issue over the last 15 years tells it's own tail. There's no hope for them." The Dubs will play anywhere and win though. Everyone knows this. It's just a hopeless pursuit by second tier mismanaged counties like Meath, and Kildare to unearth a reason for their own lack of success. Dubs will play in Navan or Newbridge no problem. Class is class at the end of the day and if takes another Omagh result to prove that I don't think the Dubs would complain about a trip to the commuter belt where our support is almost as strong as the opposition. Let's put the LSFC final on in Pairc Tailteann.
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 14/06/2019 20:08:49
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Replying To Joxer: " Replying To Jack_Goff: "Glasgow, Liverpool, Manchester and Edinburgh all have two teams. And they create so much hype in those cities due to the intense derbies.
Gator: "Good grief give it up. Its not even a discussion. Lets take last year...Dublin played 11 competitive games in Croke Park. Taking Tyrone as an example, as they went the distance in the championship, they played played there 3 times. (1 Super 8, a semi final and final) Of the other semi finalists...Galway and Monaghan also played in CP three times in the year (both teams having played there during the league, 1 super 8 and a semi final). Spot the difference indeed. Perhaps if the league games were actually played at 'home' all the time it might matter."
The fact so few Dubs even acknowledge the big home advantage issue over the last 15 years tells it's own tail. There's no hope for them." The Dubs will play anywhere and win though. Everyone knows this. It's just a hopeless pursuit by second tier mismanaged counties like Meath, and Kildare to unearth a reason for their own lack of success. Dubs will play in Navan or Newbridge no problem. Class is class at the end of the day and if takes another Omagh result to prove that I don't think the Dubs would complain about a trip to the commuter belt where our support is almost as strong as the opposition. Let's put the LSFC final on in Pairc Tailteann."
seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2142 - 14/06/2019 20:24:16
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Replying To oneoff: "Some of them will write paragraphs of more or less nothing to try and make themselfs look intelligent, yet wont answer a very simple quetion when it's put to them" Yes no point even reading through them long winding excuses with facts and figures til the cows come home.
Simple point is that they have had a massive help from the Gaa which is plain to see to any reasonable person.
Thats the bottom line as you know who said so.
KY4SAM2015 (Kerry) - Posts: 898 - 14/06/2019 20:47:59
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Dublin have a great team but hearing Dublin fans trying to deny the blatantly obvious is ridiculous. Do Dublin fans deny that the GAA at a national level taking a strategic decision years ago to increase funding to Dublin is the biggest reason for the successful growth of the GAA in Dublin?,
That Dublin play all their most important games in a stadium located in their county where they always have a sizable majority of supporter's (these are home games even if this is the national GAA stadium paid for by the GAA at a national level)?,
That in team sport's playing at home is always a big advantage as shown by teams the world over in different sports having a better home record than away record?,
None of this is Dublin's fault and it's hard to argue that the GAA were wrong to strategically grow the game in Dublin (due to its population)/ play their most important games in Croke Park due to its capacity maximising the crowds going to the games.
But don't insult our intelligence pretending these advantages don't exist.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1349 - 14/06/2019 20:56:05
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Replying To seadog54: " Replying To Joxer: "[quote=Jack_Goff: "Glasgow, Liverpool, Manchester and Edinburgh all have two teams. And they create so much hype in those cities due to the intense derbies.
Gator: "Good grief give it up. Its not even a discussion. Lets take last year...Dublin played 11 competitive games in Croke Park. Taking Tyrone as an example, as they went the distance in the championship, they played played there 3 times. (1 Super 8, a semi final and final) Of the other semi finalists...Galway and Monaghan also played in CP three times in the year (both teams having played there during the league, 1 super 8 and a semi final). Spot the difference indeed. Perhaps if the league games were actually played at 'home' all the time it might matter."
The fact so few Dubs even acknowledge the big home advantage issue over the last 15 years tells it's own tail. There's no hope for them." The Dubs will play anywhere and win though. Everyone knows this. It's just a hopeless pursuit by second tier mismanaged counties like Meath, and Kildare to unearth a reason for their own lack of success. Dubs will play in Navan or Newbridge no problem. Class is class at the end of the day and if takes another Omagh result to prove that I don't think the Dubs would complain about a trip to the commuter belt where our support is almost as strong as the opposition. Let's put the LSFC final on in Pairc Tailteann."
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 14/06/2019 21:21:10
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Replying To Joxer: " Replying To seadog54: "[quote=Joxer: "[quote=Jack_Goff: "Glasgow, Liverpool, Manchester and Edinburgh all have two teams. And they create so much hype in those cities due to the intense derbies.
Gator: "Good grief give it up. Its not even a discussion. Lets take last year...Dublin played 11 competitive games in Croke Park. Taking Tyrone as an example, as they went the distance in the championship, they played played there 3 times. (1 Super 8, a semi final and final) Of the other semi finalists...Galway and Monaghan also played in CP three times in the year (both teams having played there during the league, 1 super 8 and a semi final). Spot the difference indeed. Perhaps if the league games were actually played at 'home' all the time it might matter."
The fact so few Dubs even acknowledge the big home advantage issue over the last 15 years tells it's own tail. There's no hope for them." The Dubs will play anywhere and win though. Everyone knows this. It's just a hopeless pursuit by second tier mismanaged counties like Meath, and Kildare to unearth a reason for their own lack of success. Dubs will play in Navan or Newbridge no problem. Class is class at the end of the day and if takes another Omagh result to prove that I don't think the Dubs would complain about a trip to the commuter belt where our support is almost as strong as the opposition. Let's put the LSFC final on in Pairc Tailteann."
Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3734 - 14/06/2019 21:59:25
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Replying To bdbuddah: "Some of the posts on here are funny. To anyone looking in it is obvious that the current success of Dublin GAA is hugely influenced by the decision a number of years ago by GAA headquarters to increase funding to Dublin. Saying this great group Dublin players would have come through anyway partly misses the point, would these same players have played without the extra funding?, their clubs and then the county would not have prepared them as well without this extra funding, they are better players than they would have been for this and and the Dublin club teams/ inter county team are much stronger for this. But being honest in terms of bigger picture the numbers playing the game have grown hugely (as has the interest in GAA in Dublin) so the decision made years ago to treat Dublin as a special case by giving them extra funding maybe was worth it. I don't think we are there yet as it still is not completely clear that the last few years is the new norm but in a few years a bye product of what has been achieved with growing the game in Dublin might ultimately mean that instead of a Dublin team we end up having Fingal/ Dun Laoghaire Rathdown teams etc." No we wont .
superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 14/06/2019 22:22:58
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