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Can A D4 Or D3 Ever Win Sam?

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Armagh won it from Div 2A which in effect was the third division in those days. I can't see it happening again though.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 25/05/2019 17:48:49    2187315

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Replying To leitrim4sam:  "Were Tipperary a Division 3 team when they reached the football semi final in 2016? Wexford in 2008 certinaly were.Two more wins at that stage to be champs is certainly not impossible, but it has to be said extremly unlikely.

Mayo reached the All Ireland final and lost in a replay to meath in 1996 when they were a division 3 team. Thats the closest i can remember a division 3 or 4 team getting to winning Sam. In reality Mayo were all ireland champs, but Meath being Meath sent in a high ball from out the field in to the full forward line and it was allowed to bounce over the bar in the dying minutes to draw the first game, then won the replay by a point.

The way football is going with a select few counties pulling away from everyone these days then the chances of even a div 3 or 4 team reaching the semi's again are lenghtening every year"
First point Mayo were not in reality All Ireland champions in 1996. In reality Meath were All Ireland champions and in the real world Meath were a much superior and better team then Mayo. Mayo had a very average forward line eg Anthony Finnerty, David Nestor , Colm McMemanin , James Horan , John Casey, Ray Dempsey and Maurice Sheridan . Horan was best but even he would have struggled to get on Meath forward line. Meath had won one of the best forward lines of last 25 years eg Trevor Giles , Graham Geraghty , Tommy Dowd, Ollie Murphy, Evan Kelly and Brendan Reilly , 6 All star forwards and two footballers of the year. Meath scored 6 points in last 15 mins of drawn game , Mayo scored 0. Meath scored 1-3 in the last 15 mins of replay Mayo scored 1 point. In last 30 mins of both games Meath scored 1 - 9 , Mayo scored 0 - 1. All we hear is the boucing ball , the fact is if Meath had played that Mayo team ten times Meath would have won 10 times. 2 All Irelands to Meath to that Mayos zero says it all. 5 years later that Meath team.were beating a kerry team who had Maurice Fitzgerald Seamus Moyihan Tomas O Se Dara O Se on the team in an All Ireland semi final by 15 points. Why ? . Because Meaths forwards were a different level, a different class a different planet to Mayos forwards. Brendan Reilly last minute winning point is the greatest score from play to win an All Ireland in last 50 years. The only score comparable was Cluxtons in 2011 , but that was from a scorable free and McDonnells winning point for Armagh in 2002 All Ireland final. But McDonnells point was in 63rd min of the game. Reillys was in 71st min , injury time. McDonnell scored a lovely point but he was facing the goals and it was very scoreable. Reilly was near the corner flag with his back from goal with three defenders close by when he received the ball. He dummied his corner back brillantly and before two Mayo backs blocked , kicked a exquisite point from a very tight angle. Not one of those Mayo forwards on that team would have been able to score that point. Thats why Meath won. Meath had better forwards, better defenders eg Fay O Connell , better midfields eg McDermont , better team , better manager , won more titles , won more 2 All Irelands and played in more finals , simply a different class of a team.to that Mayo team. The current Mayo are good enough to win Sam. The team of 96 97 were not good enough. If they did it would been worst set of forwards ever to win an All Ireland eg Finnerty McMemanin Horan Dempsey Casey Sheridan Loftus. But Mayo stole the narrative afterwards and all u heard about was the boucing ball , brawl and McHale. While what really happened was ignored , that basically a group of under 21 footballers the only time this has happened along kerry team in 1975 , a group of under 21 players drove Meath to win Sam showing the greatest never say die spirit and bravery by a young team in All Ireland final in the history of gaelic football. Thats what happened in 1996 in reality.

Regards teams outside div 1 winning Sam. Twice in the last 50 years two teams outside div 1 won Sam. Armagh were in div 2 in 2002 when they won Sam. And Galway were a division 3 team in 1998 when they won Sam. In 1997 Galway were in divsion 3 and failed to gain promotion. So heading in 1998 Galway were a division 3 team. But ahead of the league GAA radically changed the 4 divisions and basically picked teams from a hat for each division. So in divsion 1 you had div 3 and div 4 teams like Galway and Wicklow. And in divsion 3 you had division 1 teams like kerry and Dublin in 1998. But Galway were technicaly a division 3 when they won Sam in 1998.
The last time a team reached All Ireland final outside div 1 was Donegal who were in divsion 2 in 2014.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 25/05/2019 20:03:00    2187337

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If D4 can win the European cup in the egg chasing, there's no reason to think they couldn't do Ireland too when their footballers flex their financial muscle after the inevitable split

dunboynelad (Meath) - Posts: 227 - 26/05/2019 08:53:44    2187501

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Replying To Furlong1949:  "First point Mayo were not in reality All Ireland champions in 1996. In reality Meath were All Ireland champions and in the real world Meath were a much superior and better team then Mayo. Mayo had a very average forward line eg Anthony Finnerty, David Nestor , Colm McMemanin , James Horan , John Casey, Ray Dempsey and Maurice Sheridan . Horan was best but even he would have struggled to get on Meath forward line. Meath had won one of the best forward lines of last 25 years eg Trevor Giles , Graham Geraghty , Tommy Dowd, Ollie Murphy, Evan Kelly and Brendan Reilly , 6 All star forwards and two footballers of the year. Meath scored 6 points in last 15 mins of drawn game , Mayo scored 0. Meath scored 1-3 in the last 15 mins of replay Mayo scored 1 point. In last 30 mins of both games Meath scored 1 - 9 , Mayo scored 0 - 1. All we hear is the boucing ball , the fact is if Meath had played that Mayo team ten times Meath would have won 10 times. 2 All Irelands to Meath to that Mayos zero says it all. 5 years later that Meath team.were beating a kerry team who had Maurice Fitzgerald Seamus Moyihan Tomas O Se Dara O Se on the team in an All Ireland semi final by 15 points. Why ? . Because Meaths forwards were a different level, a different class a different planet to Mayos forwards. Brendan Reilly last minute winning point is the greatest score from play to win an All Ireland in last 50 years. The only score comparable was Cluxtons in 2011 , but that was from a scorable free and McDonnells winning point for Armagh in 2002 All Ireland final. But McDonnells point was in 63rd min of the game. Reillys was in 71st min , injury time. McDonnell scored a lovely point but he was facing the goals and it was very scoreable. Reilly was near the corner flag with his back from goal with three defenders close by when he received the ball. He dummied his corner back brillantly and before two Mayo backs blocked , kicked a exquisite point from a very tight angle. Not one of those Mayo forwards on that team would have been able to score that point. Thats why Meath won. Meath had better forwards, better defenders eg Fay O Connell , better midfields eg McDermont , better team , better manager , won more titles , won more 2 All Irelands and played in more finals , simply a different class of a team.to that Mayo team. The current Mayo are good enough to win Sam. The team of 96 97 were not good enough. If they did it would been worst set of forwards ever to win an All Ireland eg Finnerty McMemanin Horan Dempsey Casey Sheridan Loftus. But Mayo stole the narrative afterwards and all u heard about was the boucing ball , brawl and McHale. While what really happened was ignored , that basically a group of under 21 footballers the only time this has happened along kerry team in 1975 , a group of under 21 players drove Meath to win Sam showing the greatest never say die spirit and bravery by a young team in All Ireland final in the history of gaelic football. Thats what happened in 1996 in reality.

Regards teams outside div 1 winning Sam. Twice in the last 50 years two teams outside div 1 won Sam. Armagh were in div 2 in 2002 when they won Sam. And Galway were a division 3 team in 1998 when they won Sam. In 1997 Galway were in divsion 3 and failed to gain promotion. So heading in 1998 Galway were a division 3 team. But ahead of the league GAA radically changed the 4 divisions and basically picked teams from a hat for each division. So in divsion 1 you had div 3 and div 4 teams like Galway and Wicklow. And in divsion 3 you had division 1 teams like kerry and Dublin in 1998. But Galway were technicaly a division 3 when they won Sam in 1998.
The last time a team reached All Ireland final outside div 1 was Donegal who were in divsion 2 in 2014."
Yerra, I think your getting a small bit excited there bud with all that aul waffle about how great that forward line was. True enough they were tidy but sure they'd have won it the first day if they were as good as you make out.
Meath were a fine side but not a super side in them days.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 26/05/2019 09:14:14    2187504

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Only new here and new in years also. What's the craic with the flacker lad? seems a bit uptight? is this normal routine by yer man or most on here? the words needing and the ride spring to mind. thought this was a message board and a bit of banter by like minded folk.

Canuckgael (USA) - Posts: 31 - 26/05/2019 18:15:43    2187711

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Replying To catch22:  "Yerra, I think your getting a small bit excited there bud with all that aul waffle about how great that forward line was. True enough they were tidy but sure they'd have won it the first day if they were as good as you make out.
Meath were a fine side but not a super side in them days."
Sorry but ur talking rubbish that makes no sense whatsoever. Please explain ur comment with facts and evidence. Otherwise it is just biased viewpoint not based in reality or based on facts. I can.

That Meath team won 2 All Irelands and played in 3 All Ireland in mid 90s to early 00s in a very competitive period in football. When that Meath team was on the scene you had the most competitive 7 or 8 years in leinster football history. Fact. U had a All Ireland winning Dublin and Meath team, the best kildare team in last 90 years , A kildare team that won 2 leinsters and reached kildares only All Ireland senior final in 90 years , Offalys best team in last 35 years winning leinster and national league div 1 title and louth had a good team which played in 5 or 6 leinster semi-finals in a row. In the late 90s there was 4 top division 1 teams in leinster eg Meath ( All Ireland champions 96 99 ) , Dublin ( All Ireland champions 95 ) , kildare ( All Ireland finalist 98 ) and Offaly ( leinster 97 and div 1 league winners 98 ) all in the provience. All facts.

While outside the provience you had the best team from Connacht in the last 50 years eg Galway 98 01 All Ireland winners , the beginning of great kerry team of 00s eg 97 00 , the greatest Armagh team ever 99 to 03 , best Mayo team up to that period since 50s ( first Mayo team to reach two All Ireland finals in a row since 50s ) , a very good Cork team under Larry Tompkins, a excellent Derry team which won Derrys last Ulster title in 98 and won national league div 1 title in 2000, Cavans best team in the last 50 years in 1997 winning Cavans only Ulster title in last 50 years and an excellent Tyrone team led by Peter Cavanan who were All Ireland finalist and the first team from Ulster to put back Ulster titles in 25 years eg 95 96. All facts.

So when that Meath was around you had great teams from Galway and kerry. And very strong teams from Kildare Offaly Cork Mayo Derry Armagh Tyrone. Look at the list of players playing in late 90s outside Meath eg Maurice Fitzgerald, Seamus Moyihan, D O Se , T O Se , Mike Frank Russell , Dara Cinneade , Anthony Lynch , Sean Og Hailpin , Colm Corkery , Michael Donnellan, Padraig Joyce , Ja Fallon , Sean Og De Paor , Liam McHale , James Nallen , Ciaran McDonald, Kieran McGeeney, Steve McDonnell , Osin McConville , Anthony Tohill , Peter Cavavan , Brian Dooher, Ciaran McManus , Glen Ryan , Dermot Mcabe , Dermot Earley , Ciaran Whelan , Dessie Farrell , Jason Sherlock and Charlie Redmond . So in one of most competitive eras in modern times in 90s where you had 8 different counties winning Sam Maguire in 9 years in 90s , Meath along with Down were the team of decade. More facts.


That Meath team had

Darren Fay Considered by many to be best full back of his generation and one best full backs ever
Martin O Connell voted as the best wing back ever on team of Milleniun and only modern player on team of Milleniun and along with Colm Coyle and Martin Furlong the only players outside Dublin in leinster in last 100 years to win 3 All Ireland senior medals.
John McDermont Captain of Ireland international rules team and one best midfielders in Ireland in late 90s

And now lets look at this Forward u called average
Trevor Giles Footballer of the year at 21 , the only player to ever win footballer of the year twice along with Jack O Se. One of best Best centre forwards of last 40 years.
Graham Geraghty won All stars at wing back , wing forward and full forward in 5 years. The most talented Meath footballer ever.
Tommy Dowd three times All star winner. One of best forwards in Ireland in mid 90s.
Ollie Murphy All star forward , Best corner forward in Ireland between 1999 and 2001.
Evan Kelly All Star wing forward
Brendan Reilly All star full forward and best target man in the championship in 1996. Facts.

If anyone thinks a forward line of Trevor Giles Graham Geraghty Tommy Dowd and Ollie Murphy was just a tidy forward line , well that is just extraordinary statement not based in reality or based on any sort of credilble concrete evidence. As I said that was one best forwards lines of last 20 years. I think nearly all knowledgeable gaa supporters would agree that was an excellent forward line eg Giles , Geraghty , Murphy , Dowd , Reilly and kelly. All all star winners. If u have a forward that all win All stars and between them won 16 all stars. A forward line that won 16 All stars and had two time footballer of the year is more then just a tidy forward line it is a great forward in anyones anyalsis of what a great forward line is based on.

And also was managed by one of greatest managers ever Sean Boylan who won 4 All All Irelands 8 leinsters and 3 national league div 1 titles in 15 years. Another fact.

Regards Meath didnt win first day. Mayo were better team for first 55 mins. But in last 15 mins Meath scored 6 points in. row while Mayo scored 0. In last 30 years I cannot think of a final.where in last mins a team scored 6 points to the oppositions zeros scores in last 15 mins in a close game. And Meath were in total control of the game in last 15 mins Mayo were just hanging on and if the game was a bit longer Meath wud have won. As referee only gave 1 min injury time. And Meath were on attack heading towards goals when referee blew up and Mayo were hanging on as Meath scored 6 points in succession and Mayo scored no scores.

And what about 1999 when Meath were the best team in the country by a metric mile and won every match in very convincing fashion. And what about some of the brillant swashbuckling performances that Meath team performed eg beating kerry by 15 points in a All Ireland semi final in 01, beating Tyrone by 9 points in an All Ireland semi final in 96, beat Offaly when they were reigning leinster champions by 15 points and by 22 points when Offaly were reigning league div 1 championship in leinster championship in 98 and 99 and beating Dublin by 5 points in 99 leinster final. That Meath team defeated very strong Dublin kerry Tyrone Armagh Cork Offaly and kildare teams in the championship.

That Meath also defeated Dublin 4 times in the leinster championship in 5 years which has only been done two other times in 140 years of the leinster championship. That Meath team also played in one best games ever played in Croke Park according to Michael Muiritigh and Pat Spillane in 97 second game v kildare. While one of Kerrys most famous players ever Mick O Connell said that football Meath played in late 90s was some of best he saw for years since kerry team of 1970s.

So if you could back up your opinion with facts stats , loads of results , loads of games , I would be grateful. Otherwise your opinion is just opionion not based on facts. I have given facts stats results games , awards to back up what I said. That Meath team was a superb team. A team.that wins 2 All Ireland titles in the most competitive period in leinster football history and one of most competitive periods ever in gaelic football, in any ones books is a superb team. To say otherwise is an opionion not based on facts or concrete evidence.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 26/05/2019 18:49:36    2187731

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Take this one game
How could a tidy forward line as desribed by someone above beat a great kerry team by 15 points in an All Ireland semi final. In 2001 Meath defeated kerry by 2 - 14 to 0 - 5. It was the great kerry team of 00s and the kerry players that played that day were Maurice Fitzgerald Seamus Moyihan Tomas O Se Dara O Se Dara Cinneade Mike Frank Russell Johnny Crowley Mike McCarthy Eamon Fitz Maurice Tom Sullivan Eoin Brosnan and Mike Hassett. How could a tidy forward beat a great kerry team by 15 points , how could a tidy forward line give kerry their worst defeat in championship in 100 years. Surely it would take a special group of forwards to beat any great kerry team by 15 points in an All Ireland semi final. The long point scoring of Ollie Murphy and Graham Geraghty on that day were a different class. After every score by Murphy some from unreal angles kerry supporters beside me clapped each score. Kerry gaa people know great forwards when they see them as they have produced more then any other county.

What about beating Dublin 4 times in championship in 5 years. This has only happened before two other times in the history of 140 years of leinster football

In an era that was one of most competitive ever , the 1990s. In 90s Down and Meath were only teams to win more then 1 All Ireland in 90s. Down and Meath were the teams of the decade , 90s . One of the reasons why because they both had great forwards eg Down Greg Blaney , Mickey Linden , James Mcarten , Ross Carr , Peter Whiternill and Gary Mason and Meath had great forwards in 90s like Trevor Giles Graham Geraghty Ollie Murphy Tommy Dowd Evan kelly Brendan Reilly Bernard Flynn Colm O Rourke and Brian Stafford.

Surely one of the teams of the decade in a very competitive decade , with so many great teams from Kerry Galway Dublin Donegal Derry Down Armagh Tyrone Mayo Cavan Cork Kildare and Offaly in that era in 1990s. Surely to standout in the most competitive period possibly ever in the game u would have to have a great forward line . The Down The galway the kerry teams that won All Irelands in the 1990s had great forwards eg Fitzgerald, Russell , Joyce, Fallon, Donnellan, Blaney and linden. So did Meath eg Geraghty , Murphy , Dowd , Flynn and Giles. (Giles is only two time footballer of the year in last 35 years and the only one other player in the history of gaelic football that has won two footballer of the years awards was Jack O Se and Jack O Se is considered by many to be greatest gaelic footballer of all time. )
To say that Meath didnt have a great forward line back then is not is not based on facts or concrete evidence.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 26/05/2019 19:41:24    2187759

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I will put it really simple.
A forward line cannot be considered a tidy forward if it had
1 Two time footballer of the year eg Trevor Giles ( And remeber Padraig Joyce Peter Cavanan Colm Gooch Cooper Maurice Fitzgerald and Bernard Brogan , none of these all time great forwards won footballer of the year twice)
2 One of most talented footballers of that era eg All star wing back, all star wing forward and all star full forward eg Graham Geraghty
3 Universally considered by ex players pundits journalist supporters at the time as best corner forward in Ireland between 1999 and 2001eg Ollie Murphy
4 Three time All star winner , one best forwards in mid 90s eg Tommy Dowd
5 And other all star forwards like Evan Kelly and Brendan Reilly.
That was a great forward line in anyones anyalsis.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 26/05/2019 20:04:12    2187778

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Replying To Canuckgael:  "Just to clear it up. May have worded it badly. Was looking for opinions if a team in D3 or D4 could win sam the same year as being in those divisions."
well, that's a different question. They might have stood a chance before the qualifiers and the super 8s but not now. If you are in the bottom 2 divisions you are there for a reason .

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 26/05/2019 22:36:06    2187879

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Replying To Canuckgael:  "Just to clear it up. May have worded it badly. Was looking for opinions if a team in D3 or D4 could win sam the same year as being in those divisions."
well, that's a different question. They might have stood a chance before the qualifiers and the super 8s but not now. If you are in the bottom 2 divisions you are there for a reason .

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 26/05/2019 23:45:06    2187902

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Sligo are going to win it this year I am sure.

farmer2 (Sligo) - Posts: 442 - 31/05/2019 13:12:52    2189393

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "Definitely not beyond the realms of possibility that teams like Down, Derry and especially Cork will return to the top table."
Yes, but when they return to the top table, they won't be division 3 or 4 will they?

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 31/05/2019 14:46:03    2189422

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Always found it strange that we bang on about the fact that it maybe difficult for lower tier teams to progress in the championship.

Has always been the case and always will be the case.

As it is in nearly all sports.

witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 31/05/2019 14:58:28    2189428

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Replying To witnof:  "Always found it strange that we bang on about the fact that it maybe difficult for lower tier teams to progress in the championship.

Has always been the case and always will be the case.

As it is in nearly all sports."
I was just about to ask if ever a D3 or D4 team has won a SAM.

bricktop (Down) - Posts: 2503 - 31/05/2019 15:33:43    2189437

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bit of a broad question, can a current division 3/4 team win an all ireland this year or next year or the year after etc etc . the answer is NO!!!!
of course its possible that one could win an all Ireland in future but for most counties you're talking two generations realistically. the likes of Down, derry and cork has the culture there so less time could do them. the likes of antrim, leitrim, wicklow etc really would need a couple of generations to breed that footballing culture along with correct coaching to bring them up the tables, maybe get consistent in super 8's for example then begin knocking on the door. that knock could go on for years and years and could eventually lead to an all ireland. you could even use cavan or monaghan as an example here. it could take another 30 years of the current work that's going on to get them that all ireland

theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 31/05/2019 16:22:50    2189450

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Replying To witnof:  "Always found it strange that we bang on about the fact that it maybe difficult for lower tier teams to progress in the championship.

Has always been the case and always will be the case.

As it is in nearly all sports."
It always will be case but the format doessnt help things.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3511 - 31/05/2019 16:23:53    2189451

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Replying To theweanling:  "bit of a broad question, can a current division 3/4 team win an all ireland this year or next year or the year after etc etc . the answer is NO!!!!
of course its possible that one could win an all Ireland in future but for most counties you're talking two generations realistically. the likes of Down, derry and cork has the culture there so less time could do them. the likes of antrim, leitrim, wicklow etc really would need a couple of generations to breed that footballing culture along with correct coaching to bring them up the tables, maybe get consistent in super 8's for example then begin knocking on the door. that knock could go on for years and years and could eventually lead to an all ireland. you could even use cavan or monaghan as an example here. it could take another 30 years of the current work that's going on to get them that all ireland"
Or a sponsor ala JP McManus. But Wicklow or Leitrim still are a lower division team. Limerick in hurling are not, and their All Ireland win took money, tradition and talent. Unfortunately Wicklow and Leitrim are limited.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 31/05/2019 18:42:58    2189467

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Out of interest when was the last team who won Sam playing in Div 3 or 4? Or was it ever done? I'd imagine it would be close to impossible nowadays. Even playing div 2 football and winning Sam in the same year would be a long shot. Donegal got to the final in 2014 whilst playing div 2 football that year so its not impossible.

As for the current crop of div 3 and 4 teams, the likes of Derry, Cork or Down could come good but probably not in the next 5 years.

Green_Gold (Donegal) - Posts: 1876 - 02/06/2019 12:25:23    2189758

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Replying To PyatPree:  "D3 and D4 are areas in Dublin, so I guess they are the current champions;)"
Brilliant. Hilarious

David (Meath) - Posts: 567 - 03/06/2019 22:21:15    2190347

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Replying To Green_Gold:  "Out of interest when was the last team who won Sam playing in Div 3 or 4? Or was it ever done? I'd imagine it would be close to impossible nowadays. Even playing div 2 football and winning Sam in the same year would be a long shot. Donegal got to the final in 2014 whilst playing div 2 football that year so its not impossible.

As for the current crop of div 3 and 4 teams, the likes of Derry, Cork or Down could come good but probably not in the next 5 years."
Only two division 3 team has won Sam in the last 45 years. I think only one division 2 teams, I think Im not sure about division two teams how many more so maybe others will know more, but it very rare to win Sam outside division 1 .

Dublin were a technically a division 3 team in 1974 when they won Sam. In 1974 There was division 1 group A ( 8 teams) and group b ( 8 teams). And division 2 Group A ( 8 teams ) and division group B ( 8 teams). Dublin were in division 2 group A , which technically was third division of the 4 in 1974, so Dublin won Sam from division 3 in 74. I think allot of people think Dublin won Sam from div 2 in 1974, but if you look at the leagues its div 3.
And Armagh were a division 2 team in 2002 when they won Sam.
The only other team to win Sam that was a division 3 team was Galway in 1998.
In 1997 Galway were in divsion 3 and failed to gain promotion. So heading in 1998 Galway were a division 3 team. But ahead of the league GAA radically changed the 4 divisions and basically picked teams from a hat for each division. So in divsion 1 you had div 3 and div 4 teams like Galway and Wicklow. And in divsion 3 you had division 1 teams like kerry and Dublin in 1998. But Galway were technicaly a division 3 when they won Sam in 1998.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 04/06/2019 04:56:15    2190371

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