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Replying To legendzxix: "Enjoy the championship this summer! ;)" You too, I genuinely hope to see Kerry have a successful summer in both codes.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 23/05/2019 18:17:35
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Captain Obvious here with a few facts: no two provinces are the same, one size does not fit all, the current league is almost meaningless other than blooding new players, etc.
Why not do away with the League, Walsh Cup, etc and start the Championship after St Patrick's Day? In the Hurling for example have to Top 10 or 12 teams round robin with the Top 4 teams in a playoff come September or thereabouts. Every match will have meaning as you want to make the playoffs. Every team will have a decent amount of matches in MEANINGFUL matches thereby having a good chance to improve. Bottom 2 or 4 teams drop, Top 2 or 4 teams come up from the "Lower Tier".
Could this work?
Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 2126 - 23/05/2019 18:34:51
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Replying To 1798man: "The key to any tiered championship is that the winners at least (or even finalists) should be given a chance in the latter stages of the race for Sam e.g a place in super 8s or last round of qualifiers before it. It may be a token gesture in many ways but I think it is the only thing that will give merit to a b competition.
Unfortunately to introduce something like this something would have to give. For me that would be the provincial structures. As a starting point if we take top 4 in each province (this year's semi finalists) and put them into the A competition. Next year they play 3 provincial group games each with top 2 through to provincial final. Winners through to super 8s with losers playing other losers in a qualifier to take 2 super 8 spots. Remaining super 8 spots would be taken by b championship finalists. Based on 32 counties minus kilkenny plus London and New York the b championship would be interprovincial consisting of 3 groups of four and 1 group of five.
The groups would probably have to have a designated number of teams per province (e.g group of 5 has 3 Leinster 1 Ulster 1 connaught) but could be done on an open draw basis and you fit in to the first available slot (e.g fourth Leinster team would go to group b). The complication comes with promotion. I would say two finalists at least get promoted replacing bottom teams in their provincial group. This would allow for 2 teams from same province being promoted. It could be done as all group winners either but with the caveat that it is limited to 2 teams promoted per province." It's not a good solution to the problem.
Straight out of the bat I can spot a huge problem with it.
I hate that relegation is decided by an accident of geography rather than performance.
You could have a case where Sligo are the 4th best team in Connacht and are getting hammered every week but don't get relegated because Leitrim or London would have to reach a tier 2 final for Sligo to be relegated.
I also don't really like that the Super 8a are becoming part of some of these proposals. The Super 8s are a dumb fudge. Play more games between top teams in a league phase and keep the quarterfinals on pure knockout.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 23/05/2019 18:44:36
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Replying To Trump2020: "Captain Obvious here with a few facts: no two provinces are the same, one size does not fit all, the current league is almost meaningless other than blooding new players, etc.
Why not do away with the League, Walsh Cup, etc and start the Championship after St Patrick's Day? In the Hurling for example have to Top 10 or 12 teams round robin with the Top 4 teams in a playoff come September or thereabouts. Every match will have meaning as you want to make the playoffs. Every team will have a decent amount of matches in MEANINGFUL matches thereby having a good chance to improve. Bottom 2 or 4 teams drop, Top 2 or 4 teams come up from the "Lower Tier".
Could this work?" Yes definitely. If there was no such thing as provinces this is how most people would structure a season.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 23/05/2019 20:56:45
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Replying To Whammo86: "Yes definitely. If there was no such thing as provinces this is how most people would structure a season." The provinces would be awesome if they were fairly close to even like Munster and Leinster are in Hurling. Some years Munster are better and some years Leinster are better. Always fairly close though. Connacht and Ulster are never as good as Munster and Leinster in Hurling 99% of the time. Knowing these facts wouldn't a different system be better than the current uneven system?
Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 2126 - 24/05/2019 00:18:32
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OMG - the world has no future !
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2603 - 24/05/2019 00:49:12
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Replying To Whammo86: "So in my system Munster counties are very secure. They'd have to finish bottom of a 6 team group and lose a further play off game to be relegated.
In my system Leinster counties get more games against the top teams. The likes of Westmeath, Laois, Offaly, Carlow once again get the opportunity to compete in their provincial championship each year.
There's no worries for the Leinster council that only 3 of the 5 teams in their championship are traditional Leinster counties.
Kerry get an option to play the Munster hurling championship. Kerry get a much more realistic opportunity at playing in a tier 1 group stage.
Everyone gets more, quality meaningful games. Provincial championship plus a group stage All Ireland.
The second tier teams get more opportunities to compete in the top tier. There's 3 spots in the group stages of my system for the teams outside the established 9.
Below the top tier the competition is also probably going to be better for hurling development.
There's been a serious amount of ring fencing of teams has gone on in hurling. They just keep adding tiers. It's a bit of a soft approach to competition. Oh these teams aren't going to win anything, let's add another tier." I donno - a blunt instrument like the 4x8 NFL is not so bad - combined with giving everyone one 'out of their depth (to a limit)' experience in the Provs- is probably the right call - a la a Tier 5 team playing a Prem team in the FA Cup 3rd Rd - do you think this comparison is still more valid than its hurling equivalent - hurling with KK v Cavan or Dubs v any Div 4 team ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2603 - 24/05/2019 01:17:30
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Replying To Trump2020: "Captain Obvious here with a few facts: no two provinces are the same, one size does not fit all, the current league is almost meaningless other than blooding new players, etc.
Why not do away with the League, Walsh Cup, etc and start the Championship after St Patrick's Day? In the Hurling for example have to Top 10 or 12 teams round robin with the Top 4 teams in a playoff come September or thereabouts. Every match will have meaning as you want to make the playoffs. Every team will have a decent amount of matches in MEANINGFUL matches thereby having a good chance to improve. Bottom 2 or 4 teams drop, Top 2 or 4 teams come up from the "Lower Tier".
Could this work?" With 10, you could have 1 up/ 1 down - with 12, 3 up / 3 down is crazy insane - then you would need 3 playoffs - 10 hosts 15; 11 hosts 14; and 12 hosts 13.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2603 - 24/05/2019 01:28:57
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Replying To Whammo86: "You too, I genuinely hope to see Kerry have a successful summer in both codes." I second this - I would gladly sacrafice a Cork Liam for a Kerry Sam in 2019 - so best wishes to the Kingdom !
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2603 - 24/05/2019 01:35:44
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How about this -
After 8 Prov SFs, draw a Prov Finalist from each of 4 Provs to Group A - and place their Prov Final and SF opponents in Group B.
Then the Other Prov SF 4 losers are put in Group A.
Finally, 2 Lein and 2 Uls QF losers are put in Group C with the Other 4 Lein/Uls QF losers in Group D.
Finally, put 4 Lein/Uls Prelim Rd losers in the group opposite (C or D) the team that beat them (if available) and 4 Muns/Conn QF losers in the remaining available slots to complete groups of 8.
Prov results are carried over as group results as well when the same teams are paired (fixture is not repeated).
AI SFC Group Stage - all play 8 group games, 4 home / 4 away - A v B and C v D.
Top 1 in A & B (seeded 1 to 2) to AI QFs -
Next 3 in A & B (seeded 3-4 & 9-12) play Top 3 in C & D (seeded 5-8 & 13-14].
In the AI Last 14 - seed 3 hosts seed 14, 4 hosts 13 etc....8 hosts 9. Teams continue with highest seed plays lowest seed in the QFs and SFs.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2603 - 24/05/2019 15:05:38
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How about this -
After 8 Prov SFs, draw a Prov Finalist from each of 4 Provs to Group A - and place their Prov Final and SF opponents in Group B.
Then the Other Prov SF 4 losers are put in Group A.
Finally, 2 Lein and 2 Uls QF losers are put in Group C with the Other 4 Lein/Uls QF losers in Group D.
Finally, put 4 Lein/Uls Prelim Rd losers in the group opposite (C or D) the team that beat them (if available) and 4 Muns/Conn QF losers in the remaining available slots to complete groups of 8.
Prov results are carried over as group results as well when the same teams are paired (fixture is not repeated).
AI SFC Group Stage - all play 8 group games, 4 home / 4 away - A v B and C v D.
Top 1 in A & B (seeded 1 to 2) to AI QFs -
Next 3 in A & B (seeded 3-4 & 9-12) play Top 3 in C & D (seeded 5-8 & 13-14].
In the AI Last 14 - seed 3 hosts seed 14, 4 hosts 13 etc....8 hosts 9. Teams continue with highest seed plays lowest seed in the QFs and SFs.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2603 - 24/05/2019 15:05:39
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Is there any tiered approach to help the Leinster Championship? Word has it only 30000 will be in Croke Park for this weekend's semi-finals.
My suggestion:
Dublin given bye to semi-finals.
Teams ranked 2 and 3 playoff home and away over two legs to avoid Dublin in the semi-finals.
Qualifier Group:
1 round robin group of 4. Group winner takes on the team that has avoided Dublin in the semi-finals.
Leinster Championship 2:
1 round robin group of 4. Top 2 into final with the winner promoted to the qualifier group of the following year.
Leinster semi-final losers would have to play a 3rd placed playoff. Loser into the qualifier group of the following year.
Plenty of football for all at their level.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 05/06/2019 22:59:34
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Plan B:
Dublin given direct qualification to Leinster final.
Qualifier Group:
Round robin group of 4. Top 2 into a semi-final. Winner advances to Leinster final v Dublin.
Leinster Championship 2:
2 groups of 3. Top 2 into semi-finals. Winner promoted to the Qualifier Group.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 05/06/2019 23:09:12
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Plan C:
Dublin directly into Leinster final.
Leinster runners-up from previous year into semi-final.
Qualifier Group:
Round robin group of 4. Top 2 advance to quarter-finals.
Leinster Championship 2:
Round Robin group of 5. 2 home and away games each. Top 2 into final. Winner promoted.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 05/06/2019 23:16:33
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Plan D:
Dublin into the final.
Leinster runners-up (Team 2) into quarter-finals along with semi-final loser (Team 3), seeded to avoid each other.
Qualifier Group:
1 group of 4. Group winner takes on Team 3 from previous year in quarter-finals. Group runners-up take on Leinster runners-up (Team 2) in the other quarter-final.
Quarter-final losers have to participate in the qualifying group of the following year.
Leinster Championship 2:
1 group of 4. Top 2 into final with the winner promoted.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 05/06/2019 23:23:10
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Plan E:
If Congress won't allow Leinster their own round robin:
Dublin into the final.
Runners-up and losing semi-finalist from the previous year kept apart in the quarter-finals.
Teams 4-7 enter preliminary quarter-final. 2 winners advance to take on teams 2 and 3 in the quarter-finals.
Preliminary quarter-final loser play a relegation final.
Teams 8-11 start off in a Leinster Championship 2 semi-finals. Winner promoted to the Leinster Championship of the following year.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 05/06/2019 23:41:19
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Plan F:
Leinster champions directly into semi-finals.
Runners-up and 2 semi-finalists seeded in quarter-finals. (3 quarter-finals)
6 teams in the preliminary quarter-finals (3 matches)
2 teams will have to start in a preliminary round. (1 match.)
The 4 counties who do not reach the quarter-finals can enter Leinster Championship 2. The 2 teams not making the Championship 2 final will have to start off in the preliminary round of the following year.
Is mise le meas,
The Legend.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 06/06/2019 09:25:19
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Replying To omahant: "I donno - a blunt instrument like the 4x8 NFL is not so bad - combined with giving everyone one 'out of their depth (to a limit)' experience in the Provs- is probably the right call - a la a Tier 5 team playing a Prem team in the FA Cup 3rd Rd - do you think this comparison is still more valid than its hurling equivalent - hurling with KK v Cavan or Dubs v any Div 4 team ?" Newsflash: We're officially not the worst hurling county anymore
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5012 - 06/06/2019 09:47:37
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Replying To cavanman47: "Newsflash: We're officially not the worst hurling county anymore" Ah come on. Leave Offaly alone.
carlovia (None) - Posts: 1517 - 06/06/2019 10:18:03
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No such thing as a "Tiered Provincial Championship" oxymoron on steroids surely. Just have an open draw of some description between div 1 and div 2 teams for Sam and and open draw between division 3 and 4 for the other cup.
suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1669 - 06/06/2019 10:51:47
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