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Provincial Tiered Championship?

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Provincial Championships route to All-Ireland group stage:

Munster and Connaught finalists qualify for All-Ireland group stage.
Leinster and Ulster semi-finalists qualify for All-Ireland group stage.
Defending All-Ireland champions and Second Championship winner qualify for All-Ireland group stage.

Remaining 18 counties enter qualifying rounds for 6 places. (If All-Ireland winner and/or Second Championship winner qualify through their province, the number of teams in the qualifiers could be 19 or 20.)

Q1: 12 counties to 6. (byes given to 6 of the 18 based on championship performance in the previous year. Draw seeded as well.)
Q2: 6 Q1 winners and remaining 6 counties. (Another seeded round giving respect to championship performance in previous year and offering carrot for performing well in the current year.)

All-Ireland group stage = 4 groups of 5. 2 home games each. Seeded draw:
- Bowl A = Provincial winners.
- Bowl B = Provincial runners-up.
- Bowl C = Leinster and Ulster semi-finalists.
- Bowl D = Highest 4 based on agreed seeding.
- Bowl E = Lowest 4 based on agreed seeding.

Second championship in knockout or group stage format. Arguable options are 2 groups of 6 or 3 groups of 4.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 22/05/2019 18:47:22    2186702

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The current National Football League is fine. The Munster Hurling Championship is hurling gold.

Enhancements will be built around solid structures. The leagues are there to allow players to be played in a development manner.

I think the options in football are 4 groups of 4, 5 or 6. Qualification can be through the provincial championships and qualifiers or else run the All-Ireland as a separate entity.

I'll post more later. There is an option that the provincials feed into the group stage. Those outside the group stage can enter a tier 2 that ensures the winner a group stage spot in the following year."
4 groups divides the field by 4 and you don't get enough games in between the top teams.

The National Hurling league died as a competitive endeavour once the new hurling system came in.

I don't see the point in the same happening to football when you could instead great a league like competition in the Summer.

The hurling championship is as close to the how the hurling league was around 2007. It's going back to that.

It's actually a great format for a championship.

The NFL format from around 2005 I think would be well suited to an All Ireland championship.

As I've said the hurling format is good, it is exciting. There are huge problems with it still though and could be better and more fair if it dropped the Provincial system. Although Provincial championships should be used for seeding and provincial champions should be guaranteed entry to tier 1 championships.

This craic of development competitions in my opinion is a load of guff. Get guys out and play real meaningful games. That's what everyone wants to see. How can you tell much about how a player will cope in the white heat of championship in June and July from developmental matches in February/March.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 22/05/2019 18:57:49    2186703

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The current National Football League is fine. The Munster Hurling Championship is hurling gold.

Enhancements will be built around solid structures. The leagues are there to allow players to be played in a development manner.

I think the options in football are 4 groups of 4, 5 or 6. Qualification can be through the provincial championships and qualifiers or else run the All-Ireland as a separate entity.

I'll post more later. There is an option that the provincials feed into the group stage. Those outside the group stage can enter a tier 2 that ensures the winner a group stage spot in the following year."
A potential hurling championship based on say 2017 Provincial championship performance could be something along the lines of the following 2 groups of 6.

Group A Galway (Leinster Champions), Clare (Munster finalists), Kilkenny (opposite side of Leinster to Galway), Waterford (opposite side of Munster to Clare), Tipperary, Westmeath

Group B Cork (Munster champions), Wexford (Leinster finalists), Limerick (opposite side of Munster to Cork), Offaly (opposite side of Leinster to Wexford), Laois, Dublin

There's a lot of great hurling in there and that's after the Provincial championship match ups that have already taken place. I mean that was a pretty fairly constructed group stage and look at the quality of that group A.

There's more opportunity for those outside the elite 9 to get games at a higher level.

Leinster counties get further opportunities at high level matches.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 22/05/2019 19:10:45    2186708

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Let's say you'd the 16 teams that played in this years division 1 and 2 national league in tier 1 after the provincials in 2018. The groups would look something like this after the 2018 Provincial championships.

Group A
Dublin (Leinster champions)
Donegal (Ulster champions)
Cork (Munster finalists)
Roscommon (Connacht finalists)
Clare (opposite side to Cork in Munster)
Monaghan (opposite side to Donegal in Ulster)
Mayo
Armagh

Group B
Kerry (Munster champions)
Galway (Connacht champions)
Fermanagh (Ulster finalists)
Tipperary (opposite side to Kerry in Munster)
Tyrone
Cavan
Meath
Kildare

Those groups can be constructed and had no repeat match ups from the Provincials. Top 4 from each group to the All Ireland quarterfinals.

There's some quality games in there. Group B would be wide open.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 22/05/2019 20:19:18    2186715

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Replying To Whammo86:  "4 groups divides the field by 4 and you don't get enough games in between the top teams.

The National Hurling league died as a competitive endeavour once the new hurling system came in.

I don't see the point in the same happening to football when you could instead great a league like competition in the Summer.

The hurling championship is as close to the how the hurling league was around 2007. It's going back to that.

It's actually a great format for a championship.

The NFL format from around 2005 I think would be well suited to an All Ireland championship.

As I've said the hurling format is good, it is exciting. There are huge problems with it still though and could be better and more fair if it dropped the Provincial system. Although Provincial championships should be used for seeding and provincial champions should be guaranteed entry to tier 1 championships.

This craic of development competitions in my opinion is a load of guff. Get guys out and play real meaningful games. That's what everyone wants to see. How can you tell much about how a player will cope in the white heat of championship in June and July from developmental matches in February/March."
Waterford and Tipperary accepted 4th and 5th being elimination. Says it all. It's like in soccer, some continents are more difficult than others. Their is a responsibility for geographical spread and rewarding good transport at the same time. Leinster offers more of a threat of relegation. You have to factor that in as well. It's give and take.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 22/05/2019 21:27:41    2186728

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Let's say you'd the 16 teams that played in this years division 1 and 2 national league in tier 1 after the provincials in 2018. The groups would look something like this after the 2018 Provincial championships.

Group A
Dublin (Leinster champions)
Donegal (Ulster champions)
Cork (Munster finalists)
Roscommon (Connacht finalists)
Clare (opposite side to Cork in Munster)
Monaghan (opposite side to Donegal in Ulster)
Mayo
Armagh

Group B
Kerry (Munster champions)
Galway (Connacht champions)
Fermanagh (Ulster finalists)
Tipperary (opposite side to Kerry in Munster)
Tyrone
Cavan
Meath
Kildare

Those groups can be constructed and had no repeat match ups from the Provincials. Top 4 from each group to the All Ireland quarterfinals.

There's some quality games in there. Group B would be wide open."
Provincial Championships route to All-Ireland group stage:

Munster and Connaught finalists qualify for All-Ireland group stage.
Leinster and Ulster semi-finalists qualify for All-Ireland group stage.
Defending All-Ireland champions and Second Championship winner qualify for All-Ireland group stage.

Remaining 18 counties enter qualifying rounds for 6 places. (If All-Ireland winner and/or Second Championship winner qualify through their province, the number of teams in the qualifiers could be 19 or 20.)

Q1: 12 counties to 6. (byes given to 6 of the 18 based on championship performance in the previous year. Draw seeded as well.)
Q2: 6 Q1 winners and remaining 6 counties. (Another seeded round giving respect to championship performance in previous year and offering carrot for performing well in the current year.)

All-Ireland group stage = 4 groups of 5. 2 home games each. Seeded draw:
- Bowl A = Provincial winners.
- Bowl B = Provincial runners-up.
- Bowl C = Leinster and Ulster semi-finalists.
- Bowl D = Highest 4 based on agreed seeding.
- Bowl E = Lowest 4 based on agreed seeding.

Second championship in knockout or group stage format. Arguable options are 2 groups of 6 or 3 groups of 4.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 22/05/2019 21:31:39    2186730

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Waterford and Tipperary accepted 4th and 5th being elimination. Says it all. It's like in soccer, some continents are more difficult than others. Their is a responsibility for geographical spread and rewarding good transport at the same time. Leinster offers more of a threat of relegation. You have to factor that in as well. It's give and take."
I don't see what is lost by making it more fair.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 22/05/2019 21:55:15    2186734

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Provincial Championships route to All-Ireland group stage:

Munster and Connaught finalists qualify for All-Ireland group stage.
Leinster and Ulster semi-finalists qualify for All-Ireland group stage.
Defending All-Ireland champions and Second Championship winner qualify for All-Ireland group stage.

Remaining 18 counties enter qualifying rounds for 6 places. (If All-Ireland winner and/or Second Championship winner qualify through their province, the number of teams in the qualifiers could be 19 or 20.)

Q1: 12 counties to 6. (byes given to 6 of the 18 based on championship performance in the previous year. Draw seeded as well.)
Q2: 6 Q1 winners and remaining 6 counties. (Another seeded round giving respect to championship performance in previous year and offering carrot for performing well in the current year.)

All-Ireland group stage = 4 groups of 5. 2 home games each. Seeded draw:
- Bowl A = Provincial winners.
- Bowl B = Provincial runners-up.
- Bowl C = Leinster and Ulster semi-finalists.
- Bowl D = Highest 4 based on agreed seeding.
- Bowl E = Lowest 4 based on agreed seeding.

Second championship in knockout or group stage format. Arguable options are 2 groups of 6 or 3 groups of 4."
I was very much in favour of this last year when you first came up with something along those lines.

I think now though it is really important that there's at most 2 groups in a football championship.

The biggest problem with the football is that top teams don't play each other enough.

If the top 8 teams are evenly spread over 4 groups there's going to be 4 matches that involve them against one another.

Spread them evenly over 2 groups and there are 12 games between them.

1 league would have more games between the best teams but for the purposes of inclusiveness it'd probably be best to have a 16 team competition split into 2 groups rather than say a 12 team tier 1 league.

How often do you hear about the championship not getting started until the quarterfinals, that's going to happen in yours also.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 22/05/2019 22:06:44    2186737

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't see what is lost by making it more fair."
Where is the fairness for Leinster that Munster are more secure from relegation?

It's all about lobbying as well. Offaly, Westmeath, Laois and Carlow lobbied well to have McDonagh Cup teams included in home preliminary quarter-finals.

Munster win = security from relegation.
Leinster win = not as difficult as Munster to make the top 3.
McDonagh Cup win = home preliminary quarter-finals for the two finalists.

Enjoy your hurling county's run out in it's competition level and have a nice summer!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 22/05/2019 22:15:22    2186739

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I was very much in favour of this last year when you first came up with something along those lines.

I think now though it is really important that there's at most 2 groups in a football championship.

The biggest problem with the football is that top teams don't play each other enough.

If the top 8 teams are evenly spread over 4 groups there's going to be 4 matches that involve them against one another.

Spread them evenly over 2 groups and there are 12 games between them.

1 league would have more games between the best teams but for the purposes of inclusiveness it'd probably be best to have a 16 team competition split into 2 groups rather than say a 12 team tier 1 league.

How often do you hear about the championship not getting started until the quarterfinals, that's going to happen in yours also."
The top teams will not vote for what you are suggesting. The lower teams will want to be involved. The balance of both would lean towards the 4 groups of 5 that I suggest.

The Munster counties are happy to have a tougher championship than to have the risk of relegation that the Leinster counties have to contend with. You need to take a step back and look at what's behind voting for one option or another.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 22/05/2019 22:31:37    2186744

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Replying To Whammo86:  "A potential hurling championship based on say 2017 Provincial championship performance could be something along the lines of the following 2 groups of 6.

Group A Galway (Leinster Champions), Clare (Munster finalists), Kilkenny (opposite side of Leinster to Galway), Waterford (opposite side of Munster to Clare), Tipperary, Westmeath

Group B Cork (Munster champions), Wexford (Leinster finalists), Limerick (opposite side of Munster to Cork), Offaly (opposite side of Leinster to Wexford), Laois, Dublin

There's a lot of great hurling in there and that's after the Provincial championship match ups that have already taken place. I mean that was a pretty fairly constructed group stage and look at the quality of that group A.

There's more opportunity for those outside the elite 9 to get games at a higher level.

Leinster counties get further opportunities at high level matches."
That group formation is a bit like one of my prior ideas -
Two Prov KOs - Muns 5 and Lein 5.
AIC groups (A & B) 'built' as Prov results unfold.
So - Lein QF loser to group A, winner to B.
That B winner's SF opponent to A.
Other Lein SF - one team to each group, so Finalists are in opposite groups.
Repeat the process for Muns - but QF loser to B.
All complete 5 matches - A v B.

AIC KO SFs - 1st in A v QF winner (2nd v 3rd in A).
1st in B v QF winner (2nd v 3rd in B).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2603 - 22/05/2019 23:18:10    2186758

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Provincial Championships route to All-Ireland group stage:

Munster and Connaught finalists qualify for All-Ireland group stage.
Leinster and Ulster semi-finalists qualify for All-Ireland group stage.
Defending All-Ireland champions and Second Championship winner qualify for All-Ireland group stage.

Remaining 18 counties enter qualifying rounds for 6 places. (If All-Ireland winner and/or Second Championship winner qualify through their province, the number of teams in the qualifiers could be 19 or 20.)

Q1: 12 counties to 6. (byes given to 6 of the 18 based on championship performance in the previous year. Draw seeded as well.)
Q2: 6 Q1 winners and remaining 6 counties. (Another seeded round giving respect to championship performance in previous year and offering carrot for performing well in the current year.)

All-Ireland group stage = 4 groups of 5. 2 home games each. Seeded draw:
- Bowl A = Provincial winners.
- Bowl B = Provincial runners-up.
- Bowl C = Leinster and Ulster semi-finalists.
- Bowl D = Highest 4 based on agreed seeding.
- Bowl E = Lowest 4 based on agreed seeding.

Second championship in knockout or group stage format. Arguable options are 2 groups of 6 or 3 groups of 4."
It seems the 3 of us are back in the pit again -

Or, AI Tier 2 - 4 groups of 3 - winners to QFs - 4 2nds host 4 3rds in QF Playoffs (I rather like the 3-match guarantee, with match 3 as a KO).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2603 - 22/05/2019 23:37:29    2186760

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Waterford and Tipperary accepted 4th and 5th being elimination. Says it all. It's like in soccer, some continents are more difficult than others. Their is a responsibility for geographical spread and rewarding good transport at the same time. Leinster offers more of a threat of relegation. You have to factor that in as well. It's give and take."
'.....more difficult than others.....' - reminds of the Club World Cup Finals - Auckland NZ almost has a birth right - Cork City has to win the Champions League to advance - seems the GAA got their way in this tourney design :)

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2603 - 22/05/2019 23:45:33    2186761

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The top teams will not vote for what you are suggesting. The lower teams will want to be involved. The balance of both would lean towards the 4 groups of 5 that I suggest.

I don't see how either part of that statement is an obvious objective fact?

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 22/05/2019 23:53:31    2186763

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I was very much in favour of this last year when you first came up with something along those lines.

I think now though it is really important that there's at most 2 groups in a football championship.

The biggest problem with the football is that top teams don't play each other enough.

If the top 8 teams are evenly spread over 4 groups there's going to be 4 matches that involve them against one another.

Spread them evenly over 2 groups and there are 12 games between them.

1 league would have more games between the best teams but for the purposes of inclusiveness it'd probably be best to have a 16 team competition split into 2 groups rather than say a 12 team tier 1 league.

How often do you hear about the championship not getting started until the quarterfinals, that's going to happen in yours also."
That's a fair point - 2x8 promotes inclusion (a la old style NFL, with 2x2 up/down), although 12 teams provides a better 11 game count (excl Provs, AI Series etc).
Mix the two (merging NFL/AIC) - 3x6 (A hosts B, B hosts C, C hosts A, 12 inter-group games, 6 home/ 6 away per team, leading to KO).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2603 - 23/05/2019 00:01:24    2186765

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Where is the fairness for Leinster that Munster are more secure from relegation?

It's all about lobbying as well. Offaly, Westmeath, Laois and Carlow lobbied well to have McDonagh Cup teams included in home preliminary quarter-finals.

Munster win = security from relegation.
Leinster win = not as difficult as Munster to make the top 3.
McDonagh Cup win = home preliminary quarter-finals for the two finalists.

Enjoy your hurling county's run out in it's competition level and have a nice summer!"
So in my system Munster counties are very secure. They'd have to finish bottom of a 6 team group and lose a further play off game to be relegated.

In my system Leinster counties get more games against the top teams. The likes of Westmeath, Laois, Offaly, Carlow once again get the opportunity to compete in their provincial championship each year.

There's no worries for the Leinster council that only 3 of the 5 teams in their championship are traditional Leinster counties.

Kerry get an option to play the Munster hurling championship. Kerry get a much more realistic opportunity at playing in a tier 1 group stage.

Everyone gets more, quality meaningful games. Provincial championship plus a group stage All Ireland.

The second tier teams get more opportunities to compete in the top tier. There's 3 spots in the group stages of my system for the teams outside the established 9.

Below the top tier the competition is also probably going to be better for hurling development.

There's been a serious amount of ring fencing of teams has gone on in hurling. They just keep adding tiers. It's a bit of a soft approach to competition. Oh these teams aren't going to win anything, let's add another tier.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 23/05/2019 00:06:04    2186766

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Where is the fairness for Leinster that Munster are more secure from relegation?

It's all about lobbying as well. Offaly, Westmeath, Laois and Carlow lobbied well to have McDonagh Cup teams included in home preliminary quarter-finals.

Munster win = security from relegation.
Leinster win = not as difficult as Munster to make the top 3.
McDonagh Cup win = home preliminary quarter-finals for the two finalists.

Enjoy your hurling county's run out in it's competition level and have a nice summer!"
Seems it could be a good template for Prov/AI SFC as well -
Uls + London = 2 groups of 5 (only Prov fully retained, both winners to Uls Final, 6 to AI KO).
Other 3 Prov Finals = 1 group of 6 (only retain Finals based on each Prov top 2 in NFL, 3 to AI KO).
McDonagh style Tier 2 = 1 group of 6 (1st to Tier 1 QF Playoff, 2 go down)
Ring style Tier 3 = Lowest 10 (2 groups of 5, 6 to Tier 3 KO, 2 go up).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2603 - 23/05/2019 00:37:40    2186768

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Enjoy the championship this summer! ;)

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 23/05/2019 12:51:27    2186862

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Well, the hurling anyway.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2603 - 23/05/2019 13:04:43    2186864

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The key to any tiered championship is that the winners at least (or even finalists) should be given a chance in the latter stages of the race for Sam e.g a place in super 8s or last round of qualifiers before it. It may be a token gesture in many ways but I think it is the only thing that will give merit to a b competition.

Unfortunately to introduce something like this something would have to give. For me that would be the provincial structures. As a starting point if we take top 4 in each province (this year's semi finalists) and put them into the A competition. Next year they play 3 provincial group games each with top 2 through to provincial final. Winners through to super 8s with losers playing other losers in a qualifier to take 2 super 8 spots. Remaining super 8 spots would be taken by b championship finalists. Based on 32 counties minus kilkenny plus London and New York the b championship would be interprovincial consisting of 3 groups of four and 1 group of five.

The groups would probably have to have a designated number of teams per province (e.g group of 5 has 3 Leinster 1 Ulster 1 connaught) but could be done on an open draw basis and you fit in to the first available slot (e.g fourth Leinster team would go to group b). The complication comes with promotion. I would say two finalists at least get promoted replacing bottom teams in their provincial group. This would allow for 2 teams from same province being promoted. It could be done as all group winners either but with the caveat that it is limited to 2 teams promoted per province.

1798man (Wexford) - Posts: 164 - 23/05/2019 16:42:26    2186946

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