National Forum

McStay: Provincial Championships Have To Go

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Not really. I'm looking for something that will work for everyone and give a good balance to the season.

If you want to retain the best players you need to have a well structured competition that they can test themselves against the best. The training per games ratio at the top level is very much an issue for the association to deal with. It's been heavily flagged, I'm suggesting something that could improve this ratio and getting the top players playing against one another more.

In my idea the club game is getting a better window of games in February-Early April to play Provincial and All Ireland club.

September on is for the most part club time. The summer is available for club league without interference. That's the club players level. It's a quirk of the GAA that the very best players can play their club football for a local club at a standard way beneath their level.

It's great, it's a unique selling point of the association but there has to be balance.

I think you'd lose more to players from the game without a strong competitive inter county landscape.

Whilst life isn't all about money, it is worth pointing out how much of the GAA's revenue comes from the football and hurling championship.

You're going to struggle to pay all the coaches without a strong inter county scene.

So no it isn't tail wagging the dog. It's a pragmatic approach to a sensible, realistic way in which our games should be organised."
It won't be a strong intercounty scene though. It'll be strong only for elite counties. McStay talked about the lack of competition in Leinster and Munster. The reason for that is the ever widening gap in standards between top and bottom. So the answer is do away with provincial championships, have a tiered championship, to set up an elite, widen the gap even further? So-called weaker counties, rarely heard of in the media as it is, will be further down the foodchain.

Coaches aren't paid. They're 'compensated for their time'. And now the GPA want players 'compensated' for their time. Counties decide when club football is paid, not Croke Park. Why should club footballers give a damn about intercounty football structures when all the top brass want to do is shaft the majority of club players and the intercounty players in so-called weaker counties.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7363 - 08/05/2019 16:17:25    2182538

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Replying To theweanling:  "it's very simple!!!!! make the league the premier competition and by premier i mean market it, have it in summertime. if the provisional councils want to keep the tradition of the provincial championship then play the final of each on the June bank holiday (example)
I can't say i'm a fan of abolishing the provincials. if you get rid of the provincials you lose another important part of the tribalism of the GAA."
I think a lot of people would be against the abolition of the provincials, not least the provincial councils themselves. But they don't necessarily have to be gotten rid of, they could easily be retained just not as part of the main championship.

It's a pity the Gaa hasn't been more active in this, as usual they seem to be stumbling towards change rather than taking a leading role, disappointing but not surprising.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 08/05/2019 16:33:57    2182544

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "It won't be a strong intercounty scene though. It'll be strong only for elite counties. McStay talked about the lack of competition in Leinster and Munster. The reason for that is the ever widening gap in standards between top and bottom. So the answer is do away with provincial championships, have a tiered championship, to set up an elite, widen the gap even further? So-called weaker counties, rarely heard of in the media as it is, will be further down the foodchain.

Coaches aren't paid. They're 'compensated for their time'. And now the GPA want players 'compensated' for their time. Counties decide when club football is paid, not Croke Park. Why should club footballers give a damn about intercounty football structures when all the top brass want to do is shaft the majority of club players and the intercounty players in so-called weaker counties."
There are Games Development Officers employed.

You and I can agree to disagree on whether a tiered championship is good or bad for weaker counties.

I don't see how 2 games a summer and being unable to field your best players is great for the weaker counties.

I do understand your concerns, I just feel the status quo is already quite bad.

The big gap by the way is from the top handful to the rest.

Getting the middling counties playing more matches. The Cavan's, Clare's, Tipps of the world more games every season could close the gap at the top.

Bringing in a top tier isn't necessarily at the expense of the weak.

A rising tide raises all boats. Having a better quality top competition could give aspirations to those weaker teams and offer a real prize for winning a second tier championship.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 08/05/2019 17:17:58    2182553

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "It won't be a strong intercounty scene though. It'll be strong only for elite counties. McStay talked about the lack of competition in Leinster and Munster. The reason for that is the ever widening gap in standards between top and bottom. So the answer is do away with provincial championships, have a tiered championship, to set up an elite, widen the gap even further? So-called weaker counties, rarely heard of in the media as it is, will be further down the foodchain.

Coaches aren't paid. They're 'compensated for their time'. And now the GPA want players 'compensated' for their time. Counties decide when club football is paid, not Croke Park. Why should club footballers give a damn about intercounty football structures when all the top brass want to do is shaft the majority of club players and the intercounty players in so-called weaker counties."
I don't really understand the lack of media attention argument. I don't think that is any reason to hold up structural change, in fact I think structural change will help solve that.

ways to solve lack of media coverage:

1) have better structures so teams have more competitive games (not hammerings) that people would want to watch
2) GAA sorting out media coverage of the championships as a whole - More packages to show more games, more promotion of games in general etc.

As it stands right now the media coverage is very elitist with all attention now on the elite hurling for 6 weeks before turning to the elite football for super 8's. I know the argument about no coverage for lower tier hurling, but that is more to do with the media rights. I'm sure TG4 or someone would be happy to have a highlights and magazine show for at least the second tier hurling competitions or have different versions of sunday game available online with focus on different competitions... but my understanding is that the GAA don't facilitate that at all.

End of the day, not everyone can be shown on the sunday game live or at 9.30 sunday night

himachechy (Donegal) - Posts: 293 - 08/05/2019 17:18:23    2182554

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Replying To himachechy:  "I don't really understand the lack of media attention argument. I don't think that is any reason to hold up structural change, in fact I think structural change will help solve that.

ways to solve lack of media coverage:

1) have better structures so teams have more competitive games (not hammerings) that people would want to watch
2) GAA sorting out media coverage of the championships as a whole - More packages to show more games, more promotion of games in general etc.

As it stands right now the media coverage is very elitist with all attention now on the elite hurling for 6 weeks before turning to the elite football for super 8's. I know the argument about no coverage for lower tier hurling, but that is more to do with the media rights. I'm sure TG4 or someone would be happy to have a highlights and magazine show for at least the second tier hurling competitions or have different versions of sunday game available online with focus on different competitions... but my understanding is that the GAA don't facilitate that at all.

End of the day, not everyone can be shown on the sunday game live or at 9.30 sunday night"
If they dropped the live RTE games they showed that weekend, or even gave them less time, from the night show they could show a few minutes for counties who rarely get coverage. Or have a Monday night highlight show for so-called weaker counties, if not a runner just have it on the player. Between them RTE and Sky have plenty of footage from games that never gets broadcast. If there is a Tier 2 competition introduced it'll be a lot more attractive to sponsors if they're getting good media coverage. I think there's scope for a podcast on YouTube or elsewhere with some highlights and review analysis of those games and possibly, but unlikely, to livestream games.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7363 - 08/05/2019 18:16:52    2182567

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I think the league is fine the way it is. Pre league competitions should be knock out and championship left as it is. It's not like in hurling where you have 9 teams with a chance of winning. The tier 1 will still be dominated by Dublin so might as well keep it as is.

I've gone over this many times in the past. Rotating Dublin around a different province each year will freshen football up. Yeah Dublin will probably still win most AI but they won't win the provincial every year and the fact they have it tougher earlier will wear them out more. Travelling to places like Killarney, Ballybofey or Castlebar would be much tougher then hammering Meath, Longford or Kildare in Croker.

You'd get Dublin winning Leinster every 4 years but a new team would win an ultra competitive leinster the other 3. Teams like Carlow and Longford could win titles. And any other the other provincials would get a major boost the year Dublin compete.

Otherwise just leave it as is. Does the idea of Dublin winning 28/29 leinsters in 30 years sound appealing? Not to me. The standard of leinster will improve as counties will have something to play for unlike now.

Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 08/05/2019 18:23:52    2182569

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Replying To himachechy:  "I don't really understand the lack of media attention argument. I don't think that is any reason to hold up structural change, in fact I think structural change will help solve that.

ways to solve lack of media coverage:

1) have better structures so teams have more competitive games (not hammerings) that people would want to watch
2) GAA sorting out media coverage of the championships as a whole - More packages to show more games, more promotion of games in general etc.

As it stands right now the media coverage is very elitist with all attention now on the elite hurling for 6 weeks before turning to the elite football for super 8's. I know the argument about no coverage for lower tier hurling, but that is more to do with the media rights. I'm sure TG4 or someone would be happy to have a highlights and magazine show for at least the second tier hurling competitions or have different versions of sunday game available online with focus on different competitions... but my understanding is that the GAA don't facilitate that at all.

End of the day, not everyone can be shown on the sunday game live or at 9.30 sunday night"
I completely agree.

It's more important to get players playing games in competitions that they care about. If that then has media interest great. If not, at least they are playing good quality matches.

It's tough to believe sometimes in this age of reality tv but not every in the world lives to be seen on tv.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 08/05/2019 18:37:13    2182573

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Replying To Jack_Goff:  "I think the league is fine the way it is. Pre league competitions should be knock out and championship left as it is. It's not like in hurling where you have 9 teams with a chance of winning. The tier 1 will still be dominated by Dublin so might as well keep it as is.

I've gone over this many times in the past. Rotating Dublin around a different province each year will freshen football up. Yeah Dublin will probably still win most AI but they won't win the provincial every year and the fact they have it tougher earlier will wear them out more. Travelling to places like Killarney, Ballybofey or Castlebar would be much tougher then hammering Meath, Longford or Kildare in Croker.

You'd get Dublin winning Leinster every 4 years but a new team would win an ultra competitive leinster the other 3. Teams like Carlow and Longford could win titles. And any other the other provincials would get a major boost the year Dublin compete.

Otherwise just leave it as is. Does the idea of Dublin winning 28/29 leinsters in 30 years sound appealing? Not to me. The standard of leinster will improve as counties will have something to play for unlike now."
What's the point of winning a Leinster title without the best team being in the competition.

Would Meath actually want a Leinster without Dublin. This is a county with 7 All Ireland's to their name. Do they want an asterisk by their titles. They definitely wouldn't be equal to any of the Leinster to have preceded them.

I absolutely hate your attitude. Competitive sport isn't communism. It's supposed to decide the best of the best. It's such a defeatist attitude to think we can't beat Dublin let's move them.

Should Kerry also be moved from Munster. Would it be fair that put Kerry into Leinster in the years Dublin aren't there.

What if Meath or Kildare start to dominate Leinster ex Dublin.

No, no, no.

If the Provincial championships are to mean anything then they just have to retain their traditional composition.

Those that use Galway hurling as a comparison aren't being fair. Galway has no provincial championship to play in. It's practical necessity that they play in Leinster.

Meath are a division 1 team next year. I mean if they can't be challenging Dublin or Kildare, who beat Mayo last year on their way to the super 8s, then who will.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 08/05/2019 19:18:33    2182581

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Where can I find the Mc Stay blueprint?

maroondiesel (Mayo) - Posts: 1197 - 08/05/2019 21:15:39    2182603

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Replying To maroondiesel:  "Where can I find the Mc Stay blueprint?"
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.rte.ie/amp/1047678/

He's no answers, just get rid of the Provincial championships.

I mean, I don't see that the Provinces are actually the problem with there just be a thin number of top teams.

Rubbish Provincial championship finals will be replaced by rubbish All Ireland quarter finals.

The one big reason to get rid of them is that there's a lack of fairness to them.

There are actually ways in which that can be improved.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 08/05/2019 21:34:45    2182604

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Replying To Whammo86:  "What's the point of winning a Leinster title without the best team being in the competition.

Would Meath actually want a Leinster without Dublin. This is a county with 7 All Ireland's to their name. Do they want an asterisk by their titles. They definitely wouldn't be equal to any of the Leinster to have preceded them.

I absolutely hate your attitude. Competitive sport isn't communism. It's supposed to decide the best of the best. It's such a defeatist attitude to think we can't beat Dublin let's move them.

Should Kerry also be moved from Munster. Would it be fair that put Kerry into Leinster in the years Dublin aren't there.

What if Meath or Kildare start to dominate Leinster ex Dublin.

No, no, no.

If the Provincial championships are to mean anything then they just have to retain their traditional composition.

Those that use Galway hurling as a comparison aren't being fair. Galway has no provincial championship to play in. It's practical necessity that they play in Leinster.

Meath are a division 1 team next year. I mean if they can't be challenging Dublin or Kildare, who beat Mayo last year on their way to the super 8s, then who will."
100% agree , it really is a defeatist attitude , year after year he rolls this out , jesus wept.

superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 08/05/2019 22:21:26    2182608

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I completely agree.

It's more important to get players playing games in competitions that they care about. If that then has media interest great. If not, at least they are playing good quality matches.

It's tough to believe sometimes in this age of reality tv but not every in the world lives to be seen on tv."
Do you think counties with little or no media exposure and TV time throughout the year will have the same chance of decent sponsorship as counties with 7 or 8 live games between League and Championship, plus highlights on TV and other media exposure with sponsor's branding on display?

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7363 - 08/05/2019 22:41:29    2182611

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Replying To Whammo86:  "What's the point of winning a Leinster title without the best team being in the competition.

Would Meath actually want a Leinster without Dublin. This is a county with 7 All Ireland's to their name. Do they want an asterisk by their titles. They definitely wouldn't be equal to any of the Leinster to have preceded them.

I absolutely hate your attitude. Competitive sport isn't communism. It's supposed to decide the best of the best. It's such a defeatist attitude to think we can't beat Dublin let's move them.

Should Kerry also be moved from Munster. Would it be fair that put Kerry into Leinster in the years Dublin aren't there.

What if Meath or Kildare start to dominate Leinster ex Dublin.

No, no, no.

If the Provincial championships are to mean anything then they just have to retain their traditional composition.

Those that use Galway hurling as a comparison aren't being fair. Galway has no provincial championship to play in. It's practical necessity that they play in Leinster.

Meath are a division 1 team next year. I mean if they can't be challenging Dublin or Kildare, who beat Mayo last year on their way to the super 8s, then who will."
There is a few bit here that are just plain wrong.
"Competitive sport isn't like communism"
What your talking about is professional sports and even some of them have elements of communism to their structure - draft systems, collective bargaining agreements, salary caps etc. Your reference to competitive sport is in reference to soccer ( but not Major League Soccer)

While I think the Idea of circulating Dublin or Kerry around the provinces has no merit whatsoever there is no doubt that the current system has no merit either and only serves the elite teams.

For the record, Galway had a provincial championship, the other counties withdrew because they weren't competitive and decided not to waste their time.

The fact is the GAA is supposed to be about equal promotion of all its codes throughout the entire Island and for the diaspora abroad. By any metric it has failed in that goal. It has competitive structures and funding models that protect the elite few, always has.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1130 - 09/05/2019 03:16:22    2182630

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Do you think counties with little or no media exposure and TV time throughout the year will have the same chance of decent sponsorship as counties with 7 or 8 live games between League and Championship, plus highlights on TV and other media exposure with sponsor's branding on display?"
I've been thinking about this.

I think there should be redistribution of sponsorship money brought in by counties.

I mentioned this idea in other threads.

Anything over and above a certain amount is taxed and redistributed to the counties bringing in the least.

I also think there should be caps on intercounty spending and the season shortened to reduce the amount of time that coaching and conditioning staff are employed to serve the county teams. Spending at the top level feels unsustainable for me.

You bring that in then it levels the playing field greatly and weaker counties can catch up economically somewhat.

I don't want rampant elitism either. I just want strong competitions for players to participate in and that rewards them for their time spent training.

2 championship games guaranteed a year only doesn't do that.

A losers trophy where the worst teams get a "championship" to determine the best of the worst of the teams of even bother to participate has been shown to not work already.

It's hard then to bring in more meaningful games without a more league based competition where teams play a significant schedule of games and the competition is worth winning to progress up the ladder.

If that were brought in I'd suggest it be a very flat structure. 2 tiers max. I've sometimes mentioned having 3 tiers but I'd be worried that the distance to the top would ended up cutting the weakest teams off.

That would be a reason for why I wouldn't want the 4 tier National League to become the championship. You'd only have 8 teams capable of winning the All Ireland a year. It'd take 3 years minimum for a team starting in division 4 to ever contest the top competition. It works really well for the secondary competition but in my opinion isn't fit for the primary competition.

A 2 tier league feels more right to me.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 09/05/2019 05:35:37    2182637

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I've been thinking about this.

I think there should be redistribution of sponsorship money brought in by counties.

I mentioned this idea in other threads.

Anything over and above a certain amount is taxed and redistributed to the counties bringing in the least.

I also think there should be caps on intercounty spending and the season shortened to reduce the amount of time that coaching and conditioning staff are employed to serve the county teams. Spending at the top level feels unsustainable for me.

You bring that in then it levels the playing field greatly and weaker counties can catch up economically somewhat.

I don't want rampant elitism either. I just want strong competitions for players to participate in and that rewards them for their time spent training.

2 championship games guaranteed a year only doesn't do that.

A losers trophy where the worst teams get a "championship" to determine the best of the worst of the teams of even bother to participate has been shown to not work already.

It's hard then to bring in more meaningful games without a more league based competition where teams play a significant schedule of games and the competition is worth winning to progress up the ladder.

If that were brought in I'd suggest it be a very flat structure. 2 tiers max. I've sometimes mentioned having 3 tiers but I'd be worried that the distance to the top would ended up cutting the weakest teams off.

That would be a reason for why I wouldn't want the 4 tier National League to become the championship. You'd only have 8 teams capable of winning the All Ireland a year. It'd take 3 years minimum for a team starting in division 4 to ever contest the top competition. It works really well for the secondary competition but in my opinion isn't fit for the primary competition.

A 2 tier league feels more right to me."
Yes or no would have been grand.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7363 - 09/05/2019 10:00:06    2182661

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Yes or no would have been grand."
Sorry I thought this was an Internet forum where people discuss things.

Have you anything else you'd like a response to for your questionnaire?

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 09/05/2019 10:32:58    2182672

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Be interesting to hear from the GPA again regarding what the players think. 4 years ago, they reported that lower division teams overhelmingly rejected the idea of a 2 tiered championship and also that 31 counties were behind their champions league style proposal. Now personally I thought that while their proposal had it's flaws (eg 24 teams qualifying for the KO stages instead of 16), they were very much on the right track.

Again the Gaa themselves really should be taking a leading role in this, but sadly they're not, however if the GPA came back with the same findings again the pressure would come on the Gaa to treat this matter more seriously.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 09/05/2019 11:34:45    2182689

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "If they dropped the live RTE games they showed that weekend, or even gave them less time, from the night show they could show a few minutes for counties who rarely get coverage. Or have a Monday night highlight show for so-called weaker counties, if not a runner just have it on the player. Between them RTE and Sky have plenty of footage from games that never gets broadcast. If there is a Tier 2 competition introduced it'll be a lot more attractive to sponsors if they're getting good media coverage. I think there's scope for a podcast on YouTube or elsewhere with some highlights and review analysis of those games and possibly, but unlikely, to livestream games."
I agree with what you are saying. I see the media coverage issue as separate to the competition structures for the most part. So even of structures don't change, the coverage issue should be addressed.

The Antrim poster points out that TV isn't everything, and he is right. But overall, everyone in a county will prosper by getting more coverage - more sponsorship, increased interest in the team, driving participation etc.

We live in a multi platform media age... that brings lots of opportunities. Changing the structures should be about the players and GAA people of those counties primarily. But if done in harmony with the media side...could be a win win all round

himachechy (Donegal) - Posts: 293 - 09/05/2019 11:55:52    2182693

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Replying To Htaem:  "Be interesting to hear from the GPA again regarding what the players think. 4 years ago, they reported that lower division teams overhelmingly rejected the idea of a 2 tiered championship and also that 31 counties were behind their champions league style proposal. Now personally I thought that while their proposal had it's flaws (eg 24 teams qualifying for the KO stages instead of 16), they were very much on the right track.

Again the Gaa themselves really should be taking a leading role in this, but sadly they're not, however if the GPA came back with the same findings again the pressure would come on the Gaa to treat this matter more seriously."
So something along similar lines to the World Cup style format that could keep the Provincials would be the following.

Every county plays 4 rounds of matches to include their Provincial championship games up to the semifinals.

Week 1

4 Ulster and Leinster Preliminary round ties.
12 Interprovincial open draw ties involving 7 remaining Ulster counties, 5 remaining Leinster counties and the Munster and Connacht teams.

Week 2

12 Provincial quarterfinals (4 Ulster and Leinster, 2 Munster and Connacht)
4 Interprovincial open draw ties 1 Ulster Preliminary round loser, 3 Leinster Preliminary round losers, 2 Munster and Connacht bye teams.

Week 3

16 Open draw ties 16 Provincial semifinalists drawn against the 16 teams not making the Provincial semifinals

Week 4

8 Provincial semifinals
8 ties between the 16 non semi final teams

Teams to be guaranteed 2 home and 2 away ties.

Week 5 Provincial finals

Provincial champions plus 12 others qualify for the All Ireland last 16.

Provincial champions seeded so that they can't meet until the semifinals.

4 other teams also seeded in the first knockout round

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 09/05/2019 12:46:06    2182713

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Replying To Whammo86:  "So something along similar lines to the World Cup style format that could keep the Provincials would be the following.

Every county plays 4 rounds of matches to include their Provincial championship games up to the semifinals.

Week 1

4 Ulster and Leinster Preliminary round ties.
12 Interprovincial open draw ties involving 7 remaining Ulster counties, 5 remaining Leinster counties and the Munster and Connacht teams.

Week 2

12 Provincial quarterfinals (4 Ulster and Leinster, 2 Munster and Connacht)
4 Interprovincial open draw ties 1 Ulster Preliminary round loser, 3 Leinster Preliminary round losers, 2 Munster and Connacht bye teams.

Week 3

16 Open draw ties 16 Provincial semifinalists drawn against the 16 teams not making the Provincial semifinals

Week 4

8 Provincial semifinals
8 ties between the 16 non semi final teams

Teams to be guaranteed 2 home and 2 away ties.

Week 5 Provincial finals

Provincial champions plus 12 others qualify for the All Ireland last 16.

Provincial champions seeded so that they can't meet until the semifinals.

4 other teams also seeded in the first knockout round"
It's a creative suggestion Whammo I'll give you that, the equal amount of games is important I feel, it's a bit silly having teams playing different amounts of games to reach the same stage (draws not included of course, but they need to go aswell so we can have a master fixture list).

Ps, is your week 3 just a fcuk it why not week, doesn't seem to effect your championship at all :-)

My proposal would be to remove the provincials from the championship and use the NFL to seed teams with 2 execptions:

1. Provincial champions are guaranteed top seed.
2. Lower league winners take the seed of the team who finished last in the league above them, eg div2 champions Donegal take the place of Cavan who finished 8th in Division 1 (however this wouldn't apply if Cavan won Ulster).

From there you have 8 groups of 4, containing a team from each division (except for where a lower division team wins their provincial and earns top seed).

Each team plays 3 games, 1 home, 1 away and 1 neutral, top 2 teams in each divison qualify for the last 16 straight KO for Sam.

A second tier could possibly be then introduced for the 8 teams who finished 3rd in their groups which would cut down on dead rubbers and give teams something to play for. Obviously this sort of 2nd tier could be a difficult sell though.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 09/05/2019 14:54:03    2182757

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