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Kevin McStay makes a lot of sense in what he says.
The biggest problem in restructuring would be the opposition from the provincial councils.
The Fix: As an experiment for 2/3 years why not scrap the current format of the league. Replace it by Provincials, each with it's own structure:
Play end Jan to March...less games.
Munster 6 counties play each other - 5 games each
Con 5 counties play each other - 4 games each
Ulster 2 groups 5 and 4
Leinster: 2 groups of 6 and 5 (depends on KK)
Each province have a semi and final.
Then All Ireland league semi and final.
CHAMPIONSHIP
8 GROUPS OF 4 (London, NY pre qualify)
all counties get 3 games.
Top 2 in each group into Tier A knock out
Bottom 2 in each group into Tier B knockout.
This gives at least 4 games to every county at the time of the year when players love to play and supporters love to go to games.
No qualifiers.
novalis (Carlow) - Posts: 312 - 06/05/2019 10:26:22
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Replying To novalis: "Kevin McStay makes a lot of sense in what he says.
The biggest problem in restructuring would be the opposition from the provincial councils.
The Fix: As an experiment for 2/3 years why not scrap the current format of the league. Replace it by Provincials, each with it's own structure:
Play end Jan to March...less games.
Munster 6 counties play each other - 5 games each
Con 5 counties play each other - 4 games each
Ulster 2 groups 5 and 4
Leinster: 2 groups of 6 and 5 (depends on KK)
Each province have a semi and final.
Then All Ireland league semi and final.
CHAMPIONSHIP
8 GROUPS OF 4 (London, NY pre qualify)
all counties get 3 games.
Top 2 in each group into Tier A knock out
Bottom 2 in each group into Tier B knockout.
This gives at least 4 games to every county at the time of the year when players love to play and supporters love to go to games.
No qualifiers." That's a decent proposal novalis. Counties getting decent games against a better standard of football and some local rivalry too. Then later in championship they might end up in Tier 2 with a chance of silverware, although I'm no fan of a tiered championship.
I pike Kevin McStay. A very good coach and was a fine player back in the day. Not sold on him as a pundit though. A good analyst but I don't like the way he pushes the so-called weaker counties/ tier one like sone other pundits almost as if they've been encouraged to do so. It's not like RTE will show more than a few minutes highlights of any of these counties in the entire year. What's his proposal to improve matters and get more people going to games? Less football coverage will probably add a few more to attendances. Cynically I'm thinking RTE are trying to get a few headlines the week before their championship coverage starts.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7363 - 06/05/2019 12:01:30
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Replying To novalis: "Kevin McStay makes a lot of sense in what he says.
The biggest problem in restructuring would be the opposition from the provincial councils.
The Fix: As an experiment for 2/3 years why not scrap the current format of the league. Replace it by Provincials, each with it's own structure:
Play end Jan to March...less games.
Munster 6 counties play each other - 5 games each
Con 5 counties play each other - 4 games each
Ulster 2 groups 5 and 4
Leinster: 2 groups of 6 and 5 (depends on KK)
Each province have a semi and final.
Then All Ireland league semi and final.
CHAMPIONSHIP
8 GROUPS OF 4 (London, NY pre qualify)
all counties get 3 games.
Top 2 in each group into Tier A knock out
Bottom 2 in each group into Tier B knockout.
This gives at least 4 games to every county at the time of the year when players love to play and supporters love to go to games.
No qualifiers." I'm sorry to be negative but I don't like it.
I've heard variations of this format trotted out regularly.
Why would the second tier championships be a competition worth winning?
This format gets the top teams playing against one another even less than they do currently.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 06/05/2019 12:45:51
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Apologies if I am off the mark about the players on this point but
Is the problem with any kind of 2 tier championship where all 32 teams start together with a chance at sam and split later is that as soon as a team gets knocked out of the A championship there will be alot of players declaring themselves unavailable for the B cup
Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 06/05/2019 14:38:50
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Replying To Breezy: "Apologies if I am off the mark about the players on this point but
Is the problem with any kind of 2 tier championship where all 32 teams start together with a chance at sam and split later is that as soon as a team gets knocked out of the A championship there will be alot of players declaring themselves unavailable for the B cup" Yeah I'd have thought so. If you're out of the running for Sam why would you play a tier 2 knockout tournament with no progression up the grades as part of winning it, when you could go back and play for your club instead.
I think the National Leagues need to be moved out of February, March.
Provincial and All Ireland club should take place from February to the start of April for 11 weeks.
6 more weeks for Provincial championships.
All Ireland championship in football starts on June Bank holiday weekend. 2 tiers of 2 groups of 8.
Provincial champions, Previous season's tier 2 finalists and then best ranked teams from the previous season's tier 1 qualifying are the 16 qualifiers for the tier 1.
1 club weekend in each code in each of June and July.
All Ireland final around the first weekend in Sep.
Club championships are completed and then the season ends.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 06/05/2019 15:38:01
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The League is the more competitive than the All Ireland. The only problem with it is played too early in the year in awful weather. Mayo played in a hurricane and a snow storm this year. They should merge the league with championship start with competition starting in April and finishing up in July with the top 8 teams going to the Super 8s.
Merge Divisions 1&2 and 3&4. 32 teams. Seed the teams 1-16. Divide the 4 divisions two division 1 (Odds/Evens) same for division 2 (Odds/Evens)
Play the league out and the top two teams in the top divisions go straight to the Super 8's. Third place teams play the team that finishes 2nd in their respective divisions and the 4th placed team plays the winners of the 2nd division, (Odd v Odds Evens v Evens). The winners of these games qualify for the Super 8's.
Bottom 2 teams in each Division 1 are relegated to be replaced by the top 2 teams in each division 2.
Based on the final league tables the 1-16 seeds would be the following. I then swapped teams that were an equal seed so as to keep as many local rivalries as possible. Example Galway and Monaghan would be both the 3rd seeded team in their division. It would end up with Munster/Ulster division and a Leinster/Connaught division. The league would played from April 1st-July. Then you'd have the Super 8s.
Based on the league finished this year this is how the divisions would look like.
Division 1 A Division 1 B
KERRY Mayo
TYRONE Dublin
GALWAY Monaghan
MEATH DONEGAL
ROSCOMMON Cavan
FERMANAGH Kildare
ARMAGH Clare
LAOIS Down
Swap matching seeds to maintain rivalries
KERRY Mayo
TYRONE Dublin
MONAGHAN Galway
DONEGAL Meath
CAVAN Roscommon
FERMANAGH Kildare
ARMAGH Clare
DOWN Laois
JuniorBee (Mayo) - Posts: 40 - 06/05/2019 23:30:29
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I am peddling this again -
National Tier 1 (5,5,5); Tier 2 (5,5); Tier 3 (3 v 2,2).
Tiers 1 & 2 = 4 match round robin.
Tier 3 = 4 matches, with 3v4 & pairs head to head.
Tier 1 KO 9+ (3,3,3) & 4 Prov Champs (Prov KO unchanged, play before/or in parallel with groups), byes to AI KO QFs, as needed.
Tier 2 KO 12 (3,3) & 6 parachute tier 1 4ths & 5ths.
Rd of 12, rd of 6 (best seed final bye), 1 SF, 1 Final.
Last 6 start tier 1 groups in following year.
Tier 3 KO 8 (best 4 of 7) & 4 tier 2 4ths & 5ths.
Last 4 start tier 2 groups in following year.
Plenty 'ebb & flo' for teams to find own level.
That rd of 12 & tier 3 QFs would be cut throat.
Prefer to parachute two 5ths only, so only lower tier Finalists go up (or retain upper tier status) instead ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 07/05/2019 01:03:24
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Replying To JuniorBee: "The League is the more competitive than the All Ireland. The only problem with it is played too early in the year in awful weather. Mayo played in a hurricane and a snow storm this year. They should merge the league with championship start with competition starting in April and finishing up in July with the top 8 teams going to the Super 8s.
Merge Divisions 1&2 and 3&4. 32 teams. Seed the teams 1-16. Divide the 4 divisions two division 1 (Odds/Evens) same for division 2 (Odds/Evens)
Play the league out and the top two teams in the top divisions go straight to the Super 8's. Third place teams play the team that finishes 2nd in their respective divisions and the 4th placed team plays the winners of the 2nd division, (Odd v Odds Evens v Evens). The winners of these games qualify for the Super 8's.
Bottom 2 teams in each Division 1 are relegated to be replaced by the top 2 teams in each division 2.
Based on the final league tables the 1-16 seeds would be the following. I then swapped teams that were an equal seed so as to keep as many local rivalries as possible. Example Galway and Monaghan would be both the 3rd seeded team in their division. It would end up with Munster/Ulster division and a Leinster/Connaught division. The league would played from April 1st-July. Then you'd have the Super 8s.
Based on the league finished this year this is how the divisions would look like.
Division 1 A Division 1 B
KERRY Mayo
TYRONE Dublin
GALWAY Monaghan
MEATH DONEGAL
ROSCOMMON Cavan
FERMANAGH Kildare
ARMAGH Clare
LAOIS Down
Swap matching seeds to maintain rivalries
KERRY Mayo
TYRONE Dublin
MONAGHAN Galway
DONEGAL Meath
CAVAN Roscommon
FERMANAGH Kildare
ARMAGH Clare
DOWN Laois" There's a lot to like about this.
For critical purposes:
I don't know if there should be a Super 8s rather than just regular knockout quarterfinals.
Practically speaking it makes it harder for county boards to plan when to start their season. 5 games from the Super 8s on takes 8 weeks to complete plus there's a playoff week before that. There's a lot of uncertainty as to the length of a county team's season.
Personally I don't like formats where lower division teams can jump ahead of higher division teams to reach playoffs.
There is no provision to have a 2nd tier champion.
Having no Provincial championships is maybe too drastic to be possible right now.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 07/05/2019 10:16:54
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It seems to be the general consensus that the provicials have to be at least removed from the championship. But this doesn't necessarily mean they have to be scrapped altogther, you could scrap the lesser pre-season competitions (ie O'Bryne cup, McGrath Cup etc) and retain the provincials as stand alone competitions.
Also if you wanted to maintain some value to them, then why not guarantee the 4 provincial champions top seed for that year's championship (assuming the championship changes to a group format), regardless of NFL position.
In most cases the provinicials will be won by division 1 teams anyway so it shouldn't upset the top teams too much. But it also gives the lower division teams something to aim for and it would hopefully have the effect of retaining some worth to the provicials, provided of course that the will is there to do that.
Finally, it may be the best way to keep the provincial council's onside as they are not likely to play much ball with the idea of completely scrapping their main competitions.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 07/05/2019 13:49:51
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Replying To Htaem: "It seems to be the general consensus that the provicials have to be at least removed from the championship. But this doesn't necessarily mean they have to be scrapped altogther, you could scrap the lesser pre-season competitions (ie O'Bryne cup, McGrath Cup etc) and retain the provincials as stand alone competitions.
Also if you wanted to maintain some value to them, then why not guarantee the 4 provincial champions top seed for that year's championship (assuming the championship changes to a group format), regardless of NFL position.
In most cases the provinicials will be won by division 1 teams anyway so it shouldn't upset the top teams too much. But it also gives the lower division teams something to aim for and it would hopefully have the effect of retaining some worth to the provicials, provided of course that the will is there to do that.
Finally, it may be the best way to keep the provincial council's onside as they are not likely to play much ball with the idea of completely scrapping their main competitions." The more county matches you have the more discontent with the club players.
I would go back to pre 2001 so once beaten your out.
The standard of football is poor.
Think football will suffer if there are more games.
Bernardo (Monaghan) - Posts: 597 - 07/05/2019 15:00:55
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Replying To Bernardo: "The more county matches you have the more discontent with the club players.
I would go back to pre 2001 so once beaten your out.
The standard of football is poor.
Think football will suffer if there are more games." No, the county game just needs to be more tightly organised. The qualifiers are unworkable because no one knows when they are due to play. The length of the season is badly defined because teams could be knocked out long before July or not be out until the end of August.
There's no club championship matches in those eliminated counties because they hadn't been scheduled, the county team could still be playing in the other code and why would you play club championship in July when the Provincial club won't happen until October.
The competition could and should be better organised.
Provincial and All Ireland club should also be put back to February and March. The intercounty season shouldn't start until mid to late April and the length should be less variable for all teams.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 07/05/2019 19:50:22
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You can't say forward thinking and progressive things like that.
StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1737 - 07/05/2019 22:50:41
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Replying To novalis: "Kevin McStay makes a lot of sense in what he says.
The biggest problem in restructuring would be the opposition from the provincial councils.
The Fix: As an experiment for 2/3 years why not scrap the current format of the league. Replace it by Provincials, each with it's own structure:
Play end Jan to March...less games.
Munster 6 counties play each other - 5 games each
Con 5 counties play each other - 4 games each
Ulster 2 groups 5 and 4
Leinster: 2 groups of 6 and 5 (depends on KK)
Each province have a semi and final.
Then All Ireland league semi and final.
CHAMPIONSHIP
8 GROUPS OF 4 (London, NY pre qualify)
all counties get 3 games.
Top 2 in each group into Tier A knock out
Bottom 2 in each group into Tier B knockout.
This gives at least 4 games to every county at the time of the year when players love to play and supporters love to go to games.
No qualifiers." That's a pretty good proposal but I wouldn't bother with a round robin provincial league. Better as knock out and seeded draw based on previous years league.
Play all provincial finals on St Patrick's Day - winners seeded in round robin all Ireland
Change league groups to 8 groups of 4 (full open draw) played in April/May with semis, finals and 3/4 place play offs
Then have tiered all Ireland championships from above post based on league positions
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1126 - 08/05/2019 04:41:58
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Replying To Whammo86: "No, the county game just needs to be more tightly organised. The qualifiers are unworkable because no one knows when they are due to play. The length of the season is badly defined because teams could be knocked out long before July or not be out until the end of August.
There's no club championship matches in those eliminated counties because they hadn't been scheduled, the county team could still be playing in the other code and why would you play club championship in July when the Provincial club won't happen until October.
The competition could and should be better organised.
Provincial and All Ireland club should also be put back to February and March. The intercounty season shouldn't start until mid to late April and the length should be less variable for all teams." Sounds like you want to keep the summer for county football
99% of gaa players are club players. So why not play club football during the summer and let the county player opt in or out of the club games.
Bernardo (Monaghan) - Posts: 597 - 08/05/2019 07:21:24
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On papar this sounds like it would work.
1) I am all for provincial championships to get scrapped
2) all counties start in the A championship
So it would work in effect like teams dropping into the Europa League from the Champions League group stage.
But I dont believe if all counties start in the A championship . teams that finish in the bottom 2 and go into the B Championship they wont give a hoot about the competition and that this would die a death after a few years.
Why win the B Championship when you can lose your 1st match , enjoy the break or summer in the US and be back playing A Championship next year.
Personally I think you need a 16 team Tier1 and the rest in Tier 2 at the beginning of the year
If you win Tier2 you qualify for Tier 1.
otherwise the majority of teams wont treat a second tier with any respect
woops (Kerry) - Posts: 2073 - 08/05/2019 11:27:45
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Replying To Bernardo: "Sounds like you want to keep the summer for county football
99% of gaa players are club players. So why not play club football during the summer and let the county player opt in or out of the club games." Club players can still play league, championship starts when the county team is eliminated.
There's nothing wrong with running a league for club during the county season. Gives fringe players plenty of opportunities to make their mark before championship time.
Monaghan have a decent system too where League helps decide relegation for the championship grade, so it's still a strong competition.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 08/05/2019 11:47:31
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Replying To novalis: "Kevin McStay makes a lot of sense in what he says.
The biggest problem in restructuring would be the opposition from the provincial councils.
The Fix: As an experiment for 2/3 years why not scrap the current format of the league. Replace it by Provincials, each with it's own structure:
Play end Jan to March...less games.
Munster 6 counties play each other - 5 games each
Con 5 counties play each other - 4 games each
Ulster 2 groups 5 and 4
Leinster: 2 groups of 6 and 5 (depends on KK)
Each province have a semi and final.
Then All Ireland league semi and final.
CHAMPIONSHIP
8 GROUPS OF 4 (London, NY pre qualify)
all counties get 3 games.
Top 2 in each group into Tier A knock out
Bottom 2 in each group into Tier B knockout.
This gives at least 4 games to every county at the time of the year when players love to play and supporters love to go to games.
No qualifiers." Why not try use something like your league suggestion as the championship
either this
Munster 6 counties play each other - 5 games each
Con 5 counties play each other - 4 games each
Ulster 2 groups 5 and 4
Leinster: 2 groups of 6 and 5 (depends on KK)
each with a prov final and 2 qualifier for AI knockout
Or
Teir 1
Munster 4 teams - 3 games each
Connaught 4 teams - 3 games
Ulster two groups of 3 - 2 or 4 games each
Leinster two groups of 4 - 3 each
each with a prov final and 2 qualifier for AI knockout
teir 2
10 teams 2 x groups of 5 open draw
Semi Final
Final
Year 1 NY play in a prelim playoff against last in league
every year after bottem 2 playoff in relegation game to decide NY prelim opponents
Or even better if KK want in could just do 12 with 4 groups of 3 home and away. That leaves 2 home games for NY which could easily be organised way out.
I know some teams in teir 1 play more than others but we have that problem already and this system would help plan for club days and also maybe help bridge the gap between group fans and provintial fans
Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 08/05/2019 13:57:31
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Replying To Whammo86: "Club players can still play league, championship starts when the county team is eliminated.
There's nothing wrong with running a league for club during the county season. Gives fringe players plenty of opportunities to make their mark before championship time.
Monaghan have a decent system too where League helps decide relegation for the championship grade, so it's still a strong competition." You want to build the club season around the county season. Sort of tail and dog spring to mind
Bernardo (Monaghan) - Posts: 597 - 08/05/2019 14:46:45
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Replying To Bernardo: "You want to build the club season around the county season. Sort of tail and dog spring to mind" Not really. I'm looking for something that will work for everyone and give a good balance to the season.
If you want to retain the best players you need to have a well structured competition that they can test themselves against the best. The training per games ratio at the top level is very much an issue for the association to deal with. It's been heavily flagged, I'm suggesting something that could improve this ratio and getting the top players playing against one another more.
In my idea the club game is getting a better window of games in February-Early April to play Provincial and All Ireland club.
September on is for the most part club time. The summer is available for club league without interference. That's the club players level. It's a quirk of the GAA that the very best players can play their club football for a local club at a standard way beneath their level.
It's great, it's a unique selling point of the association but there has to be balance.
I think you'd lose more to players from the game without a strong competitive inter county landscape.
Whilst life isn't all about money, it is worth pointing out how much of the GAA's revenue comes from the football and hurling championship.
You're going to struggle to pay all the coaches without a strong inter county scene.
So no it isn't tail wagging the dog. It's a pragmatic approach to a sensible, realistic way in which our games should be organised.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 08/05/2019 15:33:11
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it's very simple!!!!! make the league the premier competition and by premier i mean market it, have it in summertime. if the provisional councils want to keep the tradition of the provincial championship then play the final of each on the June bank holiday (example)
I can't say i'm a fan of abolishing the provincials. if you get rid of the provincials you lose another important part of the tribalism of the GAA.
theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 08/05/2019 15:51:07
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