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A Tier 2 Championship For Football - Let's Give It A Go

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Replying To dickie10: "i think i have the bestt set up. league finishes in mid march, provincal champiomships start in april 6 weeks for each province to finish up all provincial finals played on june bank holiday weekend. make it a huge event. this shpould be a seperate competition completely just the way the fa cup is in england. maybe play dounle headers in croker on friday nights involving the likes of dublin, wicklow, louth , meath , kildare if neccesary or if weather conditions and pitchs are dodgy in april. absolutly no reason for provincal championships cant be wrapped up in 6 weeks. from say june 20th the championship starts . all 32 counties put into groups of 4 ,so 8 groups of 4 these could be seeded on league placings or open draw for some drama. top 2 teams go straight into last 16 of championship on knock out basis week after week til semi finals then maybe 2 week break and two weeks again for final. bottom two teams go into B all ireland /tommy murphy cup. and same set up. tommy murphy final on saturday evening before all ireland final in croker. group games played 1 home, 1 away and 1 neutral venue, id like to avoid croker for these. give provinal towns the benefit. example meath v cork in portlaoise, dublin v cavan in navan, kerry v laois in thurles etc. i think everyones a winner. id scrap pre league tournaments obyrne cup etc and start league mid january" How do you finish the league in mid March? Why would a Tommy Murphy cup be a meaningful competition for teams knocked out of the race for Sam. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 30/04/2019 09:53:41 2180975 Link
Replying To Ban: "The best thing a weaker county can do is participate at a level which they are competitive! Westmeath played a couple of Leinster Finals in recent years against Dublin, dismantled in both - I think there's only 2 players on the team from those days. I got more from this years Division 3 campaign than any of those journeys!" Completely agree. A league based competition has to be moved to the summer and teams playing in a tiered competition with proper promotion and relegation incentive. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 30/04/2019 09:56:28 2180976 Link
Replying To Bon: "Surely a two tier system is the way to go. There are so many Counties out there that are light years away from winning any provincial title let alone an All Ireland. Teams knocked out in the first round of the qualifiers should be entered into it. Would give weaker teams more games which could only benefit them in the long term." Sure the reason they're light years away from winning anything is because they're so used to playing a poor standard of football. That's not saying that they're not interested in playing a tier one competition, I don't know that at all. But it should be decided by players and coaches not administrators and if they're happy with it let them off. I think some counties might want to get to a higher standard though and be more competitive in an all county Championship. With the help of the backdoor some reached the semi finals but didn't maintain that level too long. And it's very true that any dedicated counties that get to Tier One can and would survive there. But that still keeps the rest playing a poorer standard of football. I think the current GAA heads has zero intention of doing anything except promoting the top counties and keeping their standards far above the rest. Kilkenny minors, beaten by 70 points 3 years ago. Thanks to great work done with footballers who don't play club football, only football, back to a fairly respectable level, if not competitive, of football in Leinster. Jim Gavin gave them a coaching session, how could a team from those levels not benefit from that. A lot of hard work and some help from a stronger county. Even if they could find a way to have a bit of mentoring from top counties and pre-league tournaments where counties play teams of a higher standard it might improve things. I know this is cynical but I think if the GAA go a tier 2 route they could potentially lose good football prospects to other sports in so-called weaker counties or to tier one counties. The weaker counties will end up even more neglected than they are now for media coverage and consequently have less money because they'll have lower appeal for sponsors. GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7346 - 30/04/2019 11:46:14 2181007 Link
Replying To GreenandRed: "Sure the reason they're light years away from winning anything is because they're so used to playing a poor standard of football. That's not saying that they're not interested in playing a tier one competition, I don't know that at all. But it should be decided by players and coaches not administrators and if they're happy with it let them off. I think some counties might want to get to a higher standard though and be more competitive in an all county Championship. With the help of the backdoor some reached the semi finals but didn't maintain that level too long. And it's very true that any dedicated counties that get to Tier One can and would survive there. But that still keeps the rest playing a poorer standard of football. I think the current GAA heads has zero intention of doing anything except promoting the top counties and keeping their standards far above the rest. Kilkenny minors, beaten by 70 points 3 years ago. Thanks to great work done with footballers who don't play club football, only football, back to a fairly respectable level, if not competitive, of football in Leinster. Jim Gavin gave them a coaching session, how could a team from those levels not benefit from that. A lot of hard work and some help from a stronger county. Even if they could find a way to have a bit of mentoring from top counties and pre-league tournaments where counties play teams of a higher standard it might improve things. I know this is cynical but I think if the GAA go a tier 2 route they could potentially lose good football prospects to other sports in so-called weaker counties or to tier one counties. The weaker counties will end up even more neglected than they are now for media coverage and consequently have less money because they'll have lower appeal for sponsors." There is absolutely a danger of what you describe happening if weaker counties are not properly treated. There is a problem though that right now things are in a bad state. There needs to be an improved season to get more players interested in committing to playing football for the likes of Antrim, Derry, Down all counties struggling to get their best players out. You'd want these counties getting those that do commit to play for that but longer. The teams that are relatively successful have much lower turnover of players than the rest. It's hard to build over a number of years if you can't keep players. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 30/04/2019 12:15:46 2181013 Link
Amended and based on an earlier idea - 3 AI Tiers, each with 2 equally-ranked groups. Tier 1 (5,5); Tier 2 (5,5); Tier 3 (6 North, 6 South). Top 3 in each group to respective Tier KO. Also, 4ths in groups 1 to 4, play in KO of Tier below, while the 4x 5ths go down. Play KO Provs in parallel - certain pairings could be placed in the same group and count toward group table as well. 4 Champs to Tier 1 KO. Tier 1 KO 6-10 (byes for advancing twice, or strong group record, as needed); Tier 2 KO QF 8; Tier 3 KO QF 8. Tier 2 & 3 KO QFs - 1) A 4th hosts B 3rd; 2) B 1st hosts A 2nd; 3) B 4th hosts A 3rd; 4) A 1st hosts B 2nd. SFs - 1v2 and 3v4 (unless exactly 2 of 4 are from the same group, then they are kept apart in SFs). Tier 1 KO is similar with byes as needed. Tier 2 and 3 finalists play in Tier above in the following year (could be 4th-placed teams keeping their place). Well ? omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 30/04/2019 12:34:09 2181017 Link
Seriously lads, just look at the coverage announced for RTE this year, wall to wall Munster hurling championship. Absolutely no coverage of the Joe McDonagh Cup Imagine the lack of publicity a tier two football championship would get hurlorhurley (Wexford) - Posts: 1660 - 30/04/2019 13:10:47 2181024 Link
Replying To omahant: "Amended and based on an earlier idea - 3 AI Tiers, each with 2 equally-ranked groups. Tier 1 (5,5); Tier 2 (5,5); Tier 3 (6 North, 6 South). Top 3 in each group to respective Tier KO. Also, 4ths in groups 1 to 4, play in KO of Tier below, while the 4x 5ths go down. Play KO Provs in parallel - certain pairings could be placed in the same group and count toward group table as well. 4 Champs to Tier 1 KO. Tier 1 KO 6-10 (byes for advancing twice, or strong group record, as needed); Tier 2 KO QF 8; Tier 3 KO QF 8. Tier 2 & 3 KO QFs - 1) A 4th hosts B 3rd; 2) B 1st hosts A 2nd; 3) B 4th hosts A 3rd; 4) A 1st hosts B 2nd. SFs - 1v2 and 3v4 (unless exactly 2 of 4 are from the same group, then they are kept apart in SFs). Tier 1 KO is similar with byes as needed. Tier 2 and 3 finalists play in Tier above in the following year (could be 4th-placed teams keeping their place). Well ?" I think your formats need context. What problem are you trying to solve with what you are sending. I also think this one deviates a lot from existing structures. Why would this one be better than something that more closely resembles the current NFL which is known to be a strong competition. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 30/04/2019 13:43:35 2181037 Link
That should be the SFlists go up. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 30/04/2019 13:47:28 2181040 Link
Replying To omahant: "Amended and based on an earlier idea - 3 AI Tiers, each with 2 equally-ranked groups. Tier 1 (5,5); Tier 2 (5,5); Tier 3 (6 North, 6 South). Top 3 in each group to respective Tier KO. Also, 4ths in groups 1 to 4, play in KO of Tier below, while the 4x 5ths go down. Play KO Provs in parallel - certain pairings could be placed in the same group and count toward group table as well. 4 Champs to Tier 1 KO. Tier 1 KO 6-10 (byes for advancing twice, or strong group record, as needed); Tier 2 KO QF 8; Tier 3 KO QF 8. Tier 2 & 3 KO QFs - 1) A 4th hosts B 3rd; 2) B 1st hosts A 2nd; 3) B 4th hosts A 3rd; 4) A 1st hosts B 2nd. SFs - 1v2 and 3v4 (unless exactly 2 of 4 are from the same group, then they are kept apart in SFs). Tier 1 KO is similar with byes as needed. Tier 2 and 3 finalists play in Tier above in the following year (could be 4th-placed teams keeping their place). Well ?" That could end in tiers. I'll get my jacket! GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7346 - 30/04/2019 13:56:33 2181043 Link
Replying To hurlorhurley: "Seriously lads, just look at the coverage announced for RTE this year, wall to wall Munster hurling championship. Absolutely no coverage of the Joe McDonagh Cup Imagine the lack of publicity a tier two football championship would get" That isn't the only requirement for a second tier competition. Giving players a better schedule of games would be an improvement. By having a second tier you can improve the top tier competition. It's hard to have an exciting competition incorporating 32 different teams. You add in a second tier then you can incorporate promotion and relegation and have more to play for at a wider range of levels. Having a better top tier doesn't just benefit the top teams at the expense of the lesser teams. It can be added value for the entire system. You have a better top tier it gives teams something better to aspire towards. Take a very simple structure. 2 divisions of 16 teams, 3 up 3 down between divisions. A team could be the 19th best team in Ireland and win promotion to the top tier and play a full top tier league season. That would be something that all but the weakest teams could aspire to. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 30/04/2019 18:20:01 2181108 Link
Replying To hurlorhurley: "Seriously lads, just look at the coverage announced for RTE this year, wall to wall Munster hurling championship. Absolutely no coverage of the Joe McDonagh Cup Imagine the lack of publicity a tier two football championship would get" Yeah but the Munster Hurling championship in the jewel in the crown of the GAA, it is the greatest sports competition on the planet and deserves as much coverage as can be given. Look at the great games in munster last year. The reality is outside of the counties in joe mc donagh/(possible second tier football champioship) who really has any interest in watching them? But they could be streamed online like the way TG4 streamed club junior/intermediate finals. Everybody's happy. Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 1911 - 30/04/2019 19:11:36 2181122 Link
Replying To hurlorhurley: "Seriously lads, just look at the coverage announced for RTE this year, wall to wall Munster hurling championship. Absolutely no coverage of the Joe McDonagh Cup Imagine the lack of publicity a tier two football championship would get" How would it be different? You have never and will never see tipp limerick football in tv. Yes without two tier you sometimes get to see Wexford or carlow or other cannon fother playing on tv because it's against the dubs but nobody has interest in this. 2nd tier comp won't make slightest bit of difference to games on tv that's not there already tipp11 (Tipperary) - Posts: 353 - 30/04/2019 20:06:25 2181138 Link
Replying To GreenandRed: "link Neither look like any sort of improvement for so-called weaker counties. We don't agree on how to improve things for Division 3 and 4 but neither proposal here look like doing it. They're just getting taking Tommy Murphy out of the press, dusting it down and presenting is an improvement. What's more worrying is Horan expressing his preference. How can that not be seen as influencing people's decision. He should be impartial and keep his preference to himself for now." Couldn't agree more Green and Red. One of first things he did upon being elected was state that it was his ambition to introduce another tier two competition. The man is after a legacy, simple as. We hear now that there's been a change in players attitudes towards a tier two competition. Who exactly was polled I wonder. Was it confined to div 3 and 4 counties only? Passer_By (Carlow) - Posts: 509 - 30/04/2019 21:19:10 2181152 Link
Replying To hurlorhurley: "Seriously lads, just look at the coverage announced for RTE this year, wall to wall Munster hurling championship. Absolutely no coverage of the Joe McDonagh Cup Imagine the lack of publicity a tier two football championship would get" What do people actually want? A good competition structure, or a bit of publicity? TV televise what the general public are interested in. We give out for most of the summer cause the matches on TV are one sided and have zero entertainment levels. I don't expect Westmeath matches to be on TV. I would seriously hope that players are not playing for Westmeath so they get on TV! Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 30/04/2019 21:39:49 2181155 Link
Replying To Ban: "What do people actually want? A good competition structure, or a bit of publicity? TV televise what the general public are interested in. We give out for most of the summer cause the matches on TV are one sided and have zero entertainment levels. I don't expect Westmeath matches to be on TV. I would seriously hope that players are not playing for Westmeath so they get on TV!" I think this whole line of thinking comes from the pundit arena. "There should be a properly marketed second tier championship." I think Jim McGuinness initiated this line. It's been trotted out by many others since. A second tier championship would not be marketed heavily in all likelihood. It doesn't need to be. It needs to give teams and players a proper season. That's it. That's what players properly want. Games, tough hard competitive games. Give them a bloody bit of a life tough. The season really is a shambles. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 30/04/2019 22:01:28 2181160 Link
Have any counties, apart from Leitrim and Antrim, declared an interest i taking part in what be termed the 'Horan Folly' Cup? neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 30/04/2019 22:56:16 2181168 Link
Replying To GreenandRed: "That could end in tiers. I'll get my jacket!" Haha - I enjoyed that ! :) omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 30/04/2019 23:30:13 2181174 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "How do you finish the league in mid March? Why would a Tommy Murphy cup be a meaningful competition for teams knocked out of the race for Sam." A bit obvious why there is no reply - gee, I didn't think of that - a reasonable question deserves an answer, doesn't it now ? omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 01/05/2019 00:22:43 2181177 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "I think your formats need context. What problem are you trying to solve with what you are sending. I also think this one deviates a lot from existing structures. Why would this one be better than something that more closely resembles the current NFL which is known to be a strong competition." C'mon Wham - you are smarter than this - the Provs are retained - and group stage is similar to Irish NFL - but isn't Irish NHL like the Provs anyway ? - goal here, is to give football counties competitive matches within a 3-tier AI structure and still toggle between tiers 'at their own level' - I'm not sure if I answered you question ? omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 01/05/2019 01:02:59 2181180 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "That isn't the only requirement for a second tier competition. Giving players a better schedule of games would be an improvement. By having a second tier you can improve the top tier competition. It's hard to have an exciting competition incorporating 32 different teams. You add in a second tier then you can incorporate promotion and relegation and have more to play for at a wider range of levels. Having a better top tier doesn't just benefit the top teams at the expense of the lesser teams. It can be added value for the entire system. You have a better top tier it gives teams something better to aspire towards. Take a very simple structure. 2 divisions of 16 teams, 3 up 3 down between divisions. A team could be the 19th best team in Ireland and win promotion to the top tier and play a full top tier league season. That would be something that all but the weakest teams could aspire to." Why not give more Tier 2 teams a chance ? - a la English Soccer 'Championship' - a 4-team playoff ? omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 01/05/2019 01:12:22 2181181 Link