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Replying To GreenandRed: "Find some way to get the weaker counties playing against the stronger. Even though they'll start with a nice few hidings eventually standards will improve for the counties who put the work in to improve. My own naive thought is to scrap the existing provincial leagues and league. Have a league, a bit along the lines of Htaem's proposal of leagues within championship. 4 divisions with 2 teams from each current division. Each division winner goes to league semi finals. Then open draw provincials and a separate knockout open draw All Ireland championship. Close the back door for good, no second chances. League the next year goes to 4 divisions seeded similar to previous year. The worst and best in each division. Year on year the gap between strongest and weakest should reduce. An All Ireland not a small Ireland and a rest of Ireland." There's just going to be a lot of dead rubbers in that format. Weaker teams don't really play against each other too much at all.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 26/04/2019 18:12:09
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Personally I don't think a tier 2 championship will get much coverage. I still think it'd be worth it for more and better quality games in the height of the summer.
It's very difficult to have a compelling championship without having a tiered aspect to it and promotion and relegation between grades. The difference in standards around the middle counties is small. I don't think relegation to the second tier would be a death knell to a counties long term prospects.
I don't think a lower tier knockout tournament offers anything.
For scheduling purposes for club football the qualifiers have to go.
I think I'd go to Antrim games in a 2nd tier competition if they were going well. Particularly if it meant Antrim were getting more of an opportunity to field our best players. With our best team available I'd think us capable of semi regular participation in a top tier championship which would be excellent.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 26/04/2019 18:20:37
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Replying To Sweetspot: "Suggested format:
Provincials and back door kept as they are.
Round 1 back door qualifiers throw up 8 losers who enter a tier 4 'super 8' style competition.
Round 2 back door qualifiers, the same, 8 losers form a tier 3 'super 8' mini championship.
Rounds 3 and 4 throw up 4 losers each that form a tier 2 'super 8' mini championship.
Round 4 winners and provincial winners form super 8's as always.
Pros:
-Provincials are left as they are, for the traditionalists.
-every match is important for every county. Another forum talks about Leitrim's impossible Connaught task, with this, even winning one match might increase their chances of being in a higher tier, same for London.. Wicklow.. Waterford.. etc..
-We all know the league is more competitive and the matches are better, such will be true here too.
-counties will have a rough idea of the length of their inter county season long in advance of summer and can organize club fixtures accordingly.
Cons: I'm sure there's loads and I'm being too optimistic so, you tell me" That's just awful - 5 Uls teams are in Qual Rd 1 - if any two go head-to-head, the decent loser is in Tier 4 - a level that Muns SF losers will always avoid (mostly undeserving, say, Tipp and Clare).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 27/04/2019 01:23:21
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How about this -
6-Tier groups, forming a 3-Tier AIC.
Tier 1 (6,6); Tier 2 (5, 5); Tier 3 (5, 5).
Top 4 in groups 1, 3, 5 and Top 2 in groups 2, 4, 6 (also go up) to respective 3-Tier AIC.
Bottom 2 in groups 2 & 4 to 8-team Tier 2 and 3 KO, respectively (with finalists staying/going up to groups 2 & 4).
Bottom 2 in groups 1, 3, 5 go down 1 group.
Tier 1 KO 6 form group 1 the following year.
Tier 2 & 3 finalists from groups 4 & 6 go up to groups 2 & 4 (a whole AI Tier).
Plenty of ebb-and-flo between groups and tiered AIC.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 27/04/2019 02:03:13
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Maybe I should make it simpler -
3 AI Tiers, each with 2 equally-ranked groups.
Tier 1 (6,6); Tier 2 (5,5); Tier 3 (5,5)
Top 3 in each group to respective Tier KO.
Also, Bottom 2 in groups 1 to 4, play in KO of Tier below.
Play KO Provs in parallel - 4 Champs to Tier 1 KO. Tier 1 KO 10; Tier 2 KO 10; Tier 3 KO 10.
All but both 2nd & 3rd placed get byes to Tier QFs.
Tier 2 and 3 semi-finalists play in Tier above in following year (could be bottom teams keeping their place).
Well ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 27/04/2019 03:58:39
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Replying To Whammo86: "There's just going to be a lot of dead rubbers in that format. Weaker teams don't really play against each other too much at all." Exactly. How are weaker counties ever to improve when nearly all their games are against teams of a similarly poor standard. I know very well there will be plenty of dead rubbers but hopefully counties can improve where an old Division 4 county would beat a few Division 3 counties and be competitive against division 2. I know it's naive to think it could even happen or ever work but trial it for 5 years. If standards don't improve then scrap it.
A chance for one or two counties to get promototed to Tier One could very well be a temporary spell in the nearly big time without solud foundations and continuous improvement. Overall I'm not a fan of the backdoor but it gave some good runs to Sligo, Limerick, Fermanagh, Wexford and Tipperary, I'm surely forgetting a few more. But, bar Fermanagh, they all slipped back. Could even compel stronger counties to mentor the weak, We have a share of deadrubbers every championship anyway so why not try and improve the overall standard of All Ireland rather than promote the usual 10 or 12 who get all the perks?
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7346 - 27/04/2019 19:30:24
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In Breheny's column in the Indy today, some lower tier teams seem to be more interested in a 12-team tourney, without established teams like Cork and Down.
If those lowest 12 could play for a Tier 3, it would allow for a stronger Tier 2. Having certain low-placed counties within a Tier parachuted down to play in the Tier below in the same year (like Champions League 3rds going to Europa League) could further strengthen Tiers 2 and 3.
Let's try another variant of my prior posts -
Tier 1 (5,5,5); Tier 2 (4,4); Tier 3 (3,3,3).
After all play one round-robin -
Tier 1 KO 9 (3,3,3), plus 4 Prov KO Champs (played in parallel, strongest have byes to SFs in all Provs).
Tier 2 KO 11 (3,2) with lowest 6 from tier above (both group 1sts and 3 upper tier 4ths get byes).
Tier 3 KO 12 (3,3,3) with lowest 3 from tier above (all 3 group 1sts and 1 upper tier 3rd get byes).
Last 4 in Tier 2 plus 2 of 4 Last 8 losers go to next year's Tier 1; and Finalists in Tier 3 plus 1 of 2 Last 4 losers go to next year's Tier 2.
Plenty for teams to find their own level.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 27/04/2019 22:48:37
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Replying To GreenandRed: "Exactly. How are weaker counties ever to improve when nearly all their games are against teams of a similarly poor standard. I know very well there will be plenty of dead rubbers but hopefully counties can improve where an old Division 4 county would beat a few Division 3 counties and be competitive against division 2. I know it's naive to think it could even happen or ever work but trial it for 5 years. If standards don't improve then scrap it.
A chance for one or two counties to get promototed to Tier One could very well be a temporary spell in the nearly big time without solud foundations and continuous improvement. Overall I'm not a fan of the backdoor but it gave some good runs to Sligo, Limerick, Fermanagh, Wexford and Tipperary, I'm surely forgetting a few more. But, bar Fermanagh, they all slipped back. Could even compel stronger counties to mentor the weak, We have a share of deadrubbers every championship anyway so why not try and improve the overall standard of All Ireland rather than promote the usual 10 or 12 who get all the perks?" I just don't think teams want to play games where there's nothing at stake.
Antrim play the likes of Tyrone in the McKenna cup or friendlies.
There's nothing at stake in those games though either.
You can't just slap National League of the title and suddenly there be something at stake.
If you have 4 teams only getting to the semifinals then there's literally going to be nothing on the line for 4 or 5 of the teams after the first few rounds.
How does playing 4 meaningless games improve standards.
I don't think those from the weaker counties want that either. They want more games and meaningful games.
You can hear that from quotes from those at lower levels.
In football teams do move forward and progress for a consistent period of time.
Cavan, Monaghan, Roscommon, Fermanagh, Tipperary, Clare are all at relatively high levels compared to say 15-20 years ago.
For a while Wexford, Laois, Westmeath, Armagh had sustained relative success.
There's not much difference between teams around the middle of the pack.
There would be an ebb and flow. Some less traditional counties would have sustained periods in the top tier. Overall the quality of the game could be raised and more people be up for playing intercounty because they've a proper well structured competition to play in.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 27/04/2019 23:29:18
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http://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/298602
Interesting the comments of the President on the 2nd tier competition.
"You play in your provincial championships and if you don't get to the provincial final, then you go into the second-tier competition straight away," he said.
"There would be a maximum of four rounds in that competition. And if you win it, then you get automatic qualification into the qualifiers the next year, regardless of whether you are Division 3 or 4.
"That proposal would be the least damaging to club competitions. For me, it (the other option) drags it out for far too long."
It doesn't strike me that a lot of regard is being given to this proposal at the outset.
I don't see what this gives second tier counties. There will still be plenty of teams only getting 2 championship games in his preferred format. They're giving up the opportunity to play super 8s to play this. I don't understand why a county would want this.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 29/04/2019 16:38:59
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Replying To Whammo86: "http://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/298602
Interesting the comments of the President on the 2nd tier competition.
"You play in your provincial championships and if you don't get to the provincial final, then you go into the second-tier competition straight away," he said.
"There would be a maximum of four rounds in that competition. And if you win it, then you get automatic qualification into the qualifiers the next year, regardless of whether you are Division 3 or 4.
"That proposal would be the least damaging to club competitions. For me, it (the other option) drags it out for far too long."
It doesn't strike me that a lot of regard is being given to this proposal at the outset.
I don't see what this gives second tier counties. There will still be plenty of teams only getting 2 championship games in his preferred format. They're giving up the opportunity to play super 8s to play this. I don't understand why a county would want this." Think two tier system will even make club football worse as there will be more games .
Do I really want to see Carlow or antrim playing a lot more games ?
Go back to pre 2001.
It is getting harder and harder for a county to win Sam for the first time.
Do not see Monaghan winning dam unless we go back to pre 2001. Even if we did play pre 2001 we would be very fortunate to win dam
Bernardo (Monaghan) - Posts: 595 - 29/04/2019 17:58:22
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Replying To Bernardo: "Think two tier system will even make club football worse as there will be more games .
Do I really want to see Carlow or antrim playing a lot more games ?
Go back to pre 2001.
It is getting harder and harder for a county to win Sam for the first time.
Do not see Monaghan winning dam unless we go back to pre 2001. Even if we did play pre 2001 we would be very fortunate to win dam" Ah I think if Monaghan didn't have such a good Dublin to go up against that they'd be in the running at the minute. Last season showed they are capable of beating anyone else.
I think Carlow and Antrim setups put a lot of commitment in, those players deserve a better season than 7 games in February/March and 2 games in May/June.
The club game is badly organised. I think there's room for more intercounty games in the summer months if they were properly organised and club games were given designated weekends of action.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 29/04/2019 18:43:07
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Replying To Whammo86: "http://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/298602
Interesting the comments of the President on the 2nd tier competition.
"You play in your provincial championships and if you don't get to the provincial final, then you go into the second-tier competition straight away," he said.
"There would be a maximum of four rounds in that competition. And if you win it, then you get automatic qualification into the qualifiers the next year, regardless of whether you are Division 3 or 4.
"That proposal would be the least damaging to club competitions. For me, it (the other option) drags it out for far too long."
It doesn't strike me that a lot of regard is being given to this proposal at the outset.
I don't see what this gives second tier counties. There will still be plenty of teams only getting 2 championship games in his preferred format. They're giving up the opportunity to play super 8s to play this. I don't understand why a county would want this." link
Neither look like any sort of improvement for so-called weaker counties. We don't agree on how to improve things for Division 3 and 4 but neither proposal here look like doing it. They're just getting taking Tommy Murphy out of the press, dusting it down and presenting is an improvement.
What's more worrying is Horan expressing his preference. How can that not be seen as influencing people's decision. He should be impartial and keep his preference to himself for now.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7346 - 29/04/2019 20:05:32
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Replying To GreenandRed: " linkNeither look like any sort of improvement for so-called weaker counties. We don't agree on how to improve things for Division 3 and 4 but neither proposal here look like doing it. They're just getting taking Tommy Murphy out of the press, dusting it down and presenting is an improvement. What's more worrying is Horan expressing his preference. How can that not be seen as influencing people's decision. He should be impartial and keep his preference to himself for now."
If anything it comes across as putting weaker counties in their place.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 29/04/2019 21:53:04
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Replying To GreenandRed: " linkNeither look like any sort of improvement for so-called weaker counties. We don't agree on how to improve things for Division 3 and 4 but neither proposal here look like doing it. They're just getting taking Tommy Murphy out of the press, dusting it down and presenting is an improvement. What's more worrying is Horan expressing his preference. How can that not be seen as influencing people's decision. He should be impartial and keep his preference to himself for now."
2 things that I would really like would be a cap on county team spending.
A redistribution of sponsorship money from the haves to the have nots.
Every county can get up to x amount. Anything over that should be taxed and reallocated to those not hitting that amount.
Too much money is flowing only to the top.
The head of the CPA said something interesting about the Premier League recently and how games like Newcastle v Brighton say are sold as packages alongside the big games. There should be an obligation for broadcasters of GAA to show the McDonagh and Ring cup finals.
There also just has to be a better calendar.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 29/04/2019 22:13:54
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Surely a two tier system is the way to go. There are so many Counties out there that are light years away from winning any provincial title let alone an All Ireland. Teams knocked out in the first round of the qualifiers should be entered into it. Would give weaker teams more games which could only benefit them in the long term.
Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 1910 - 29/04/2019 22:35:21
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i think i have the bestt set up. league finishes in mid march, provincal champiomships start in april 6 weeks for each province to finish up all provincial finals played on june bank holiday weekend. make it a huge event. this shpould be a seperate competition completely just the way the fa cup is in england. maybe play dounle headers in croker on friday nights involving the likes of dublin, wicklow, louth , meath , kildare if neccesary or if weather conditions and pitchs are dodgy in april. absolutly no reason for provincal championships cant be wrapped up in 6 weeks. from say june 20th the championship starts . all 32 counties put into groups of 4 ,so 8 groups of 4 these could be seeded on league placings or open draw for some drama.
top 2 teams go straight into last 16 of championship on knock out basis week after week til semi finals then maybe 2 week break and two weeks again for final. bottom two teams go into B all ireland /tommy murphy cup. and same set up. tommy murphy final on saturday evening before all ireland final in croker.
group games played 1 home, 1 away and 1 neutral venue, id like to avoid croker for these. give provinal towns the benefit. example meath v cork in portlaoise, dublin v cavan in navan, kerry v laois in thurles etc. i think everyones a winner. id scrap pre league tournaments obyrne cup etc and start league mid january
dickie10 (UK) - Posts: 688 - 29/04/2019 22:46:20
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The best thing a weaker county can do is participate at a level which they are competitive!
Westmeath played a couple of Leinster Finals in recent years against Dublin, dismantled in both - I think there's only 2 players on the team from those days. I got more from this years Division 3 campaign than any of those journeys!
Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 29/04/2019 22:49:52
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With the 5-team groups so thrilling in Hurling last year, why don't they try something similar, 5-6 team groups, in football ?
OK, it's not a fair comparison with no competition in Lein and Muns - but for the group phase, maybe each half of the Muns and Conn Prov Draw could be merged with one Lein or Uls SF to form four 5-team groups - then the remaining Lein 7 and Uls 5 could form two weaker 6-team 'mixed pools'.
Top 3 in the 4 stronger 5-team groups and 2 weaker 6-team pools to the KO 18.
Teams are seeded - group winners 1-4, based on record; group 2nds 5-8; group 3rds 9-12; pool 1sts 13-14; pool 2nds 15-16; and pool 3rds 17-18.
In each of the 3 KO rds (prior to the Provincial venue neutral SFs and Croke Park Final), the highest seeded team hosts the lowest surviving seed. So in the 1st KO rd, 15 hosts 18 and 16 hosts 17. If 18 causes an upset, 16 or 17 plays away at 2 and 18 at 1 in the Rd of 16 etc.
In the above, Prov SFs double up as group pairings and the inter-group Prov Finals count as a 'bonus' group game in the table.
This keeps the lopsided Provs but the two pools serves to provide a counter-balance and the four groups should provide 'hurling style' intrigue.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 30/04/2019 02:31:12
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The Pool 12 could be 4 pools of 3 instead - with pool winners in a Tier 2 QFs and the 4 2nds hosting 4 3rds in QF Playoffs. While group games are unfolding in Tier 1, Tier 2 QFs, SFs and Final could ultimately lead to a Champ who could earn the last and 12th KO berth in Tier 1 (others being the top 3 in the 4 groups, less the weakest 3rd who loses out. The 4 Tier 1 group winners could get a bye and start the KO at the Tier 1 QF stage.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 30/04/2019 02:46:28
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Not a fan of either proposal, they're both nonsense to be honest, as stated before the Gaa are just dusting off the Tommy Murphy cup, which is destined to fail. It's sad but all they're really proving here is that they've learned sweet fa from the past.
Hopefully these options are resoundingly rejected!
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 30/04/2019 07:13:28
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