|
Replying To Pericles: "For me, the nature of the demands have changed so much that the idea that teams from the past could still thrive given modern training, I just don't agree with. Taking it in reverse, I know there are lads on our panel today who wouldn't have been in it 20 years ago (not individually skilful enough), but they have what it takes to be very effective where strength, speed and stamina are necessary to make them a strong link in the team chain. There are plenty of examples of good players, particularly forwards, who found the way the game was developing didn't suit them. For example our own Conor Mortimer. When he arrived on the scene as young player he was a very pleasant surprise for me as a supporter... very skilful and accurate, and someone who was always worth his place except for one area - he had no physicality or aggression. This enabled him to be bullied out of it by Tom O'Sullivan in the finals of 04 and 06, when basically Tom just held onto his jersey for the whole game (he got a yellow 10 mins before the end of one of the games, when one of the umpires finally got tired of seeing it and drew the referees attention). But what really did for Conor was when it started to be expected that forwards should track and tackle just the same as any player in the backs. That didn't compute with his idea of a forward and there are other lads still in the game for whom these extra duties simply don't fit their capabilities - I think James O'Donoghue is a prime example. But there are even more obvious examples from the past... while most of the Tyrone forwards from the noughties team imo would still hack it today, a player like Kerry's Maurice Fitz probably would not for the same reasons Conor Mortimer couldn't (can you imagine him chasing Philly Mc or Keith Higgins all over Croker?)." players and teams can be only as good as their era so i wouldnt be belittling or disrespectful about their achievements...considering the mayo team of recent years they could have done with mortimer as so many of them lacked basic skills and class so the idea that this era is simply impossible to adapt to is a considerable reach..
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 24/03/2019 14:12:56
2174688
Link
0
|
|
Replying To GreenandRed: "While Ken and Trevor would run through walls for Mayo, Conor played for himself first. Nowhere near as good a player as Damien Comer but Trevor was one of those kind of all action physical players that gets the crowd up and roaring. For me Conor had more footballing skills than his brothers and was a very good freetaker, but was more interested in the limelight than working harder on his game and in his game. The structure of championship, shorter season, back door, Super 8, and gap after the league has surely changed conditioning programs a bit too as teams endeavour to peak at the right time." comer?..plays well against us but hardly an exceptional player on average if you look at each game..
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 24/03/2019 14:14:00
2174689
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Pericles: "For me, the nature of the demands have changed so much that the idea that teams from the past could still thrive given modern training, I just don't agree with. Taking it in reverse, I know there are lads on our panel today who wouldn't have been in it 20 years ago (not individually skilful enough), but they have what it takes to be very effective where strength, speed and stamina are necessary to make them a strong link in the team chain. There are plenty of examples of good players, particularly forwards, who found the way the game was developing didn't suit them. For example our own Conor Mortimer. When he arrived on the scene as young player he was a very pleasant surprise for me as a supporter... very skilful and accurate, and someone who was always worth his place except for one area - he had no physicality or aggression. This enabled him to be bullied out of it by Tom O'Sullivan in the finals of 04 and 06, when basically Tom just held onto his jersey for the whole game (he got a yellow 10 mins before the end of one of the games, when one of the umpires finally got tired of seeing it and drew the referees attention). But what really did for Conor was when it started to be expected that forwards should track and tackle just the same as any player in the backs. That didn't compute with his idea of a forward and there are other lads still in the game for whom these extra duties simply don't fit their capabilities - I think James O'Donoghue is a prime example. But there are even more obvious examples from the past... while most of the Tyrone forwards from the noughties team imo would still hack it today, a player like Kerry's Maurice Fitz probably would not for the same reasons Conor Mortimer couldn't (can you imagine him chasing Philly Mc or Keith Higgins all over Croker?)." winning footballer of the year isnt hacking it?.
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 24/03/2019 14:22:42
2174690
Link
0
|
|
Replying To alano12: "comer?..plays well against us but hardly an exceptional player on average if you look at each game.." Exceptional?
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7336 - 24/03/2019 15:16:50
2174703
Link
3
|
|
Replying To Pericles: "For me, the nature of the demands have changed so much that the idea that teams from the past could still thrive given modern training, I just don't agree with. Taking it in reverse, I know there are lads on our panel today who wouldn't have been in it 20 years ago (not individually skilful enough), but they have what it takes to be very effective where strength, speed and stamina are necessary to make them a strong link in the team chain. There are plenty of examples of good players, particularly forwards, who found the way the game was developing didn't suit them. For example our own Conor Mortimer. When he arrived on the scene as young player he was a very pleasant surprise for me as a supporter... very skilful and accurate, and someone who was always worth his place except for one area - he had no physicality or aggression. This enabled him to be bullied out of it by Tom O'Sullivan in the finals of 04 and 06, when basically Tom just held onto his jersey for the whole game (he got a yellow 10 mins before the end of one of the games, when one of the umpires finally got tired of seeing it and drew the referees attention). But what really did for Conor was when it started to be expected that forwards should track and tackle just the same as any player in the backs. That didn't compute with his idea of a forward and there are other lads still in the game for whom these extra duties simply don't fit their capabilities - I think James O'Donoghue is a prime example. But there are even more obvious examples from the past... while most of the Tyrone forwards from the noughties team imo would still hack it today, a player like Kerry's Maurice Fitz probably would not for the same reasons Conor Mortimer couldn't (can you imagine him chasing Philly Mc or Keith Higgins all over Croker?)." Couldn't disagree with you more. Maurice Fitz wouldn't make it now! Are you having a laugh? And JOD was footballer of the year only a few years ago. There will always be room for this kind of player. You probably won't get away with carrying six of them nowadays but putting the ball over the bar is just as important now as it ever was.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 24/03/2019 16:14:54
2174745
Link
5
|
|
Replying To GeniusGerry: "Couldn't disagree with you more. Maurice Fitz wouldn't make it now! Are you having a laugh? And JOD was footballer of the year only a few years ago. There will always be room for this kind of player. You probably won't get away with carrying six of them nowadays but putting the ball over the bar is just as important now as it ever was." Gerry, I agree, you can carry one of them, and I'm not belittling JOD or Maurice Fitz, who was absolute class in his day. But what we're talking about is the way the game has changed and the attributes which a player, especially a forward, now needs. There's a reason Eamon Fitzmaurice didn't play both JOD and Paul Geaney at the same time against Monaghan last year, and why The Gooch saw little point in keeping going at intercounty for another couple of years, when he could have. Whatever you think about either man, they knew that the game had been transformed in the previous 7 or 8 years and that the collective performance is what delivers. This doesn't mean there isn't room for skill and I agree with the Kildare poster, that if anything the overall level of skills (fielding apart due to short and clever/accurate kickouts.... a new skill in itself) has been raised. But in general if you have a choice between a player who can and will be everywhere you need him to be and do the basics, he'll be picked before the so-call mercurial player who can light up a game with the odd flash of genius, but who can go missing for most of the rest. He'll be the first player the opposition coaches will target to be exploited and his marker will pop up all over the place as an extra man. That's why, as much as I slag them, I can understand what Kevin Walsh is about... he's not trying to build a team who'd win an AI in the 90's or noughties, his predecessors tried that and got their answer on numerous scoreboards.
Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2521 - 24/03/2019 21:33:54
2174987
Link
1
|
|
Replying To Pericles: "Gerry, I agree, you can carry one of them, and I'm not belittling JOD or Maurice Fitz, who was absolute class in his day. But what we're talking about is the way the game has changed and the attributes which a player, especially a forward, now needs. There's a reason Eamon Fitzmaurice didn't play both JOD and Paul Geaney at the same time against Monaghan last year, and why The Gooch saw little point in keeping going at intercounty for another couple of years, when he could have. Whatever you think about either man, they knew that the game had been transformed in the previous 7 or 8 years and that the collective performance is what delivers. This doesn't mean there isn't room for skill and I agree with the Kildare poster, that if anything the overall level of skills (fielding apart due to short and clever/accurate kickouts.... a new skill in itself) has been raised. But in general if you have a choice between a player who can and will be everywhere you need him to be and do the basics, he'll be picked before the so-call mercurial player who can light up a game with the odd flash of genius, but who can go missing for most of the rest. He'll be the first player the opposition coaches will target to be exploited and his marker will pop up all over the place as an extra man. That's why, as much as I slag them, I can understand what Kevin Walsh is about... he's not trying to build a team who'd win an AI in the 90's or noughties, his predecessors tried that and got their answer on numerous scoreboards." kevin walsh isnt up to a whole lot in my opinion..v limited manager unable to find any sort of balance in his team, certain players not on team who should be and ultimately not getting most out of his team..fitzmaurice isnt exactly some mastermind based on last year..there is more than enough room for quality players you just need the right balance..this idea that the game has changed all that much is a reach..look at how effective donaghy was even recently
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 24/03/2019 23:25:58
2175046
Link
1
|
|
Replying To GeniusGerry: "Couldn't disagree with you more. Maurice Fitz wouldn't make it now! Are you having a laugh? And JOD was footballer of the year only a few years ago. There will always be room for this kind of player. You probably won't get away with carrying six of them nowadays but putting the ball over the bar is just as important now as it ever was." Maurice Fitz was a genius, same as Matt Connor and a few more that could be mentioned. Genius doesn't go out of fashion, and if a manager couldn't find a place for fellas like these on his team then he shouldn't be managing. They could play in any era and shine.
kildare73 (Kildare) - Posts: 854 - 25/03/2019 09:21:06
2175131
Link
2
|
|
Replying To Joxer: "Today's players are elite athletes. Players in the 70s and 80s were having pints in the run up to games and smoking in the dressing room at half time. They wouldn't live with the sheer athleticism of today's players. While it may be great to fantasize about Jacko dislodging Fenton from a Dublin team and Spillane shifting out Dermot Connolly or Ciaran Kilkenny, today's players are on a different level, all two footed, hitting points from both sides, foot passing with either foot over 30/40 yards. I remember Michael O'H nearly having a heart attack when Mikey Sheehy flicked a ball up on the run in the 70s as though he had performed a miracle, now every player does it. Teams are training almost all year round 5/6 nights a week, playing club, college, IC football almost all year. The skills are second nature to them and the fitness is unreal. Lift up the Bomber or Jimmy K's jersey in the day and you saw a keg of beer. Lift up Ciaran Kilkennys or James O'Donoghue's and you see a 6 pack. Different level." There is no comparison between the players of the 70s, 80s, 90s & todays players. Anyone that thinks Jack O shea was as fit as today's players is having a laugh. Today's players are as close to professional as you can get without been professional. Not taking anything away from those players, great men in their day. This generation of footballer is a different animal.
cluichethar (Mayo) - Posts: 454 - 25/03/2019 13:40:03
2175269
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Pericles: "JDF, I know stats aren't everything, but in the 2017 final Mayo had an attack to scoring conversion rate of just over 60% and lost by a point to a Dublin side who hit 65%. No winner or loser in the 30 years prior to that final had managed 60% and when you take into account that Dublin and Mayo were both regarded as defensively strong, it has to say something about their relative quality. Would either of them have been as good in an era when the game was slower and players didn't need to be as athletic... it's hard to know. A lot of great players from the past even if trained to modern standards wouldn't make their county team now, because that extra step up in pace and physicality isn't something which every man or woman is capable of adapting to. We all know the standout club players who found county standard just a bit too quick and hard for them, and skill alone isn't enough anymore... players need to be able to bring a lot more if they want to make it at intercounty level." Conversion rates don't give the full picture at all.
Mayo were well on top during the first half and their dominance wasn't reflected in the half time score. If Mayo had better forwards they'd have been 5 or 6 points clear. Mayo haven't a forward who'll get a goal out of nothing with a bit of magic. Andy Moran was rightly do the player of the year in 2017 but he's not got the ability to get a goal out of nothing via pace, power or that big of magic that some forwards possess. Just look at the goal O'Callaghan got that day, no Mayo player can do that.
Including replays this Mayo team have played in 5 finals and have scored 3 goals and two of them were scored by Keegan. whilst they've conceded 8 goals in those 5 finals. Mayo didn't have a player who could do what Michael Murphy did to them in 2012 either. Mayo have good forwards without been spectacular but even after a pretty prefect performance in 2017 they still couldn't beat Dublin.
JDF (Galway) - Posts: 322 - 25/03/2019 14:47:55
2175310
Link
0
|
|
Replying To kildare73: "Maurice Fitz was a genius, same as Matt Connor and a few more that could be mentioned. Genius doesn't go out of fashion, and if a manager couldn't find a place for fellas like these on his team then he shouldn't be managing. They could play in any era and shine." And so could their markers 73. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Same Alan... neither Eamon Fitz or Kevin Walsh depended exclusively on their own judgement. But to stick with Galway as an example, I think Gary Sice is probably the best club footballer who has played the game over the last 5 or 6 years... he's true class for Corofin. But as a Mayo supporter you'd never worry about seeing him selected for the Galway county team, because at that level in championship he needed a fraction more time than he was going to get. He wasn't a bad county player either, just no better than average, and this was him with his undoubted skills and vision, trained to modern standards, but operating slightly outside his comfort zone. If he'd been playing 15 or 20 years ago at inter-county level he'd have been some player. Again, that's just my opinion...
Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2521 - 25/03/2019 14:50:17
2175311
Link
0
|
|
Replying To JDF: "Conversion rates don't give the full picture at all.
Mayo were well on top during the first half and their dominance wasn't reflected in the half time score. If Mayo had better forwards they'd have been 5 or 6 points clear. Mayo haven't a forward who'll get a goal out of nothing with a bit of magic. Andy Moran was rightly do the player of the year in 2017 but he's not got the ability to get a goal out of nothing via pace, power or that big of magic that some forwards possess. Just look at the goal O'Callaghan got that day, no Mayo player can do that.
Including replays this Mayo team have played in 5 finals and have scored 3 goals and two of them were scored by Keegan. whilst they've conceded 8 goals in those 5 finals. Mayo didn't have a player who could do what Michael Murphy did to them in 2012 either. Mayo have good forwards without been spectacular but even after a pretty prefect performance in 2017 they still couldn't beat Dublin." JDF, I wasn't lamenting the reasons Mayo lost, and fully agree with you regarding the goals making all the difference. All I was saying is that they managed to play to a very high standard and only lost because the Dubs managed to marginally exceed that standard. Would I take Mayo winning the poxiest AI final ever played by a rake of fluke scores and a referee wearing red and green specs... absolutely I would!!
Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2521 - 25/03/2019 17:15:21
2175364
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Pericles: "JDF, I wasn't lamenting the reasons Mayo lost, and fully agree with you regarding the goals making all the difference. All I was saying is that they managed to play to a very high standard and only lost because the Dubs managed to marginally exceed that standard. Would I take Mayo winning the poxiest AI final ever played by a rake of fluke scores and a referee wearing red and green specs... absolutely I would!!" You can get all the statistics you want.
Mayo will forever be known as a team who , when the going got tough , bottled it.
Fewpucks24 (Galway) - Posts: 124 - 25/03/2019 18:23:52
2175374
Link
0
|
|
Players are fitter today overall but it's hard to say by how much. Trying to paint a picture of lads slugging pints and smoking at half time is a bit disingenuous. We're not talking junior football here. Lads winning AI's back then were elite, looked after themselves very well and were extremely fit.
Biggest difference today is lads are conditioned to play today's game. Running and ball work will only get you so far. Muscle and mass are very important and if you're not hitting the weights then you are limited. The focus has shifted to this in no small part to the way the rules are being implemented. A young Gooch today would struggle to light up the scene starting out like he did start of last decade. He'd need to pump iron for a few years first. Fitness wouldn't be the issue.
It's easy to say sports science wins, end of argument. Athletics and GAA have always had good cross over and plenty of athletes played GAA. I don't think advances in sports science have seen a massive shift in say cross country times or DC marathon times over the last 40 years. Lads back then pushed themselves to the limit same as now. They had to to compete at the highest level.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 25/03/2019 21:42:32
2175426
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Pericles: "And so could their markers 73. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Same Alan... neither Eamon Fitz or Kevin Walsh depended exclusively on their own judgement. But to stick with Galway as an example, I think Gary Sice is probably the best club footballer who has played the game over the last 5 or 6 years... he's true class for Corofin. But as a Mayo supporter you'd never worry about seeing him selected for the Galway county team, because at that level in championship he needed a fraction more time than he was going to get. He wasn't a bad county player either, just no better than average, and this was him with his undoubted skills and vision, trained to modern standards, but operating slightly outside his comfort zone. If he'd been playing 15 or 20 years ago at inter-county level he'd have been some player. Again, that's just my opinion..." again thats a myth, hes clearly not the best club player..andy moran is hardly the greatest athlete in the world but look how effective he is at county level..sice is good club player but plays in an excellent team..someone like connolly would be different level to him no matter if its club or county
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 25/03/2019 22:00:43
2175435
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Hardtimes: "Players are fitter today overall but it's hard to say by how much. Trying to paint a picture of lads slugging pints and smoking at half time is a bit disingenuous. We're not talking junior football here. Lads winning AI's back then were elite, looked after themselves very well and were extremely fit.
Biggest difference today is lads are conditioned to play today's game. Running and ball work will only get you so far. Muscle and mass are very important and if you're not hitting the weights then you are limited. The focus has shifted to this in no small part to the way the rules are being implemented. A young Gooch today would struggle to light up the scene starting out like he did start of last decade. He'd need to pump iron for a few years first. Fitness wouldn't be the issue.
It's easy to say sports science wins, end of argument. Athletics and GAA have always had good cross over and plenty of athletes played GAA. I don't think advances in sports science have seen a massive shift in say cross country times or DC marathon times over the last 40 years. Lads back then pushed themselves to the limit same as now. They had to to compete at the highest level." definitely fitter and good bit more tactics nowadays but its pretty disingenous to say brilliant footballers in their time couldnt live with it nowadays when you have andy moran winning footballer of the year...clifford didnt exactly struggle..hardest thing for forwards nowadays is lack of teams really set up to attack
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 25/03/2019 22:02:57
2175436
Link
1
|
|
Replying To alano12: "definitely fitter and good bit more tactics nowadays but its pretty disingenous to say brilliant footballers in their time couldnt live with it nowadays when you have andy moran winning footballer of the year...clifford didnt exactly struggle..hardest thing for forwards nowadays is lack of teams really set up to attack" Andy would probably have retired 4 or 5 years ago if he hadn't left his sales rep job and opened his own gym. Between a lot of driving and being injury-prone his football prospects weren't too positive. Went on a tailored S&C program which was a big factor in his longevity and winning Player of the Year.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7336 - 26/03/2019 00:07:58
2175461
Link
3
|
|
Replying To alano12: "again thats a myth, hes clearly not the best club player..andy moran is hardly the greatest athlete in the world but look how effective he is at county level..sice is good club player but plays in an excellent team..someone like connolly would be different level to him no matter if its club or county" Hardly a myth Alan... an opinion definitely, same as your own.
Andy's no athlete... now that has the makings of a myth... you're confusing the aesthetic with the athletic there. Andy's one of the hardest trainers out there, into it professionally (he's a gym owner). No one stays in that condition into his 30's without a heap of hard work. You mightn't want to sculpt him and have his statue in your front garden, but you'd have said the same of Brian O'Driscoll.
Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2521 - 26/03/2019 08:53:39
2175471
Link
1
|
|
Replying To Fewpucks24: "You can get all the statistics you want.
Mayo will forever be known as a team who , when the going got tough , bottled it." bottled what .., we lost to a dublin outfit who have 6 top class players to call upoun from their bench if needed ,
and they would walk into any other county in Ireland.
They've only needed them when the come up against the likes of Kerry and Mayo.
Some nerve calling Mayo bottlers when Galway have been about as relevant as as wicklow in the All Ireland series for the past 20 years.
Vishred (Mayo) - Posts: 303 - 26/03/2019 09:57:10
2175482
Link
1
|
|
Replying To Vishred: "bottled what .., we lost to a dublin outfit who have 6 top class players to call upoun from their bench if needed ,
and they would walk into any other county in Ireland.
They've only needed them when the come up against the likes of Kerry and Mayo.
Some nerve calling Mayo bottlers when Galway have been about as relevant as as wicklow in the All Ireland series for the past 20 years." " Mayo bottlers when Galway have been about as relevant as as wicklow in the All Ireland series for the past 20 years "
I'm not sure if you know your football history , if only you had said past *21 years as Galway have won 2 all ireland's in that time. Mayo have won 3. OVERALL. In there history.
If you want to look back , Galway have more All Irelands and Connaught's than Mayo.
If you want to look back to last season , Galway got to a semi final , think you'll find Mayo didnt make super 8's.
Discuss.
candlewax (Galway) - Posts: 282 - 26/03/2019 11:01:08
2175497
Link
1
|